The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I am sure this issue has been thrashed about here, so forgive me if I am reviving a tired topic. Nonetheless, it is extremely frustrating for me to play Arco or Marveni in the Demo, as it was extremely frustrating for me to play human nations in Dom II due to the extremely low hit points of their commanders. And after seeing my super-kitted Arco hero Pathos getting one-shotted by a Mind Blast (and he had like 24 MR due to the MR trinket, Solaris Helm, and the MR increasing battlefield spell), I've had it.

The fundamental problem is this: the hit points for the human commander are so low (usually 10-15) that he is constantly menaced by the possibility of getting one-shotted--even by low quality units--and this makes the possibility of turning him into thug a problematic endeavor, to put it charitably. Absent turning him into a prophet or acquiring hit points increasing heroic skills such as Toughness or Unequaled Obesity (I believe these two are the only ones), a human commander will typically have less than 15 hit points. Compared to the durability of a Niefel Jarl or a Basalt King or a Dai Oni, you can see there is a serious imbalance.

Now, I understand that it is unrealistic for humans to approach the hit points of these giant-sized creatures; and that is not what I am asking. But surely, there is a way to slightly increase human commander hit points across the board so that the one-shot phenomenon unique it can be mitigated? It seems to make sense both gameplay-wise and context wise, given Dom III's fantasy-like setting. (Yes, Dom III is not an RPG, but it has an RPG element, and the current system where the commanders/heroes are only some 10-30 percent stronger than the base units that they are modeled on seems a bit out of whack.)

So I think a reasonable solution would be to double the base hit points of the human commanders; say, if an average human soldier has 10 hit points, why not 20 hit points for a human commander? In conjunction with something like 1 hit-point or 2 hit-point increase per experience level, this would enable a fairly experienced human commander to approach 25-30 hit points, which seems more reasonable.

Would this unbalance the game? I don't think so, if the human commanders would cost slightly more. While this may concededly be a serious adjustment in the game mechanics, I do not think it would unbalance the game in a way that would require other serious adjustments. Am I off on this? Or is this simply a dead horse topic? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I understand the frustration, but in the end, I believe that commanders are valued because of their leadership and should not be cradeled like a baby. Like a common soldier, they are replacable. Sub-commanders are placed in armies in case, your prophetized rare-item ridden leader of God gets obliterated with one spell.

Maybe it's a mistake to nurture a low hp commander as a SC. I've never played a game where I rely on one powerful soldier, so I'm pretty stupid on that subject. I went off topic.

I think that humans are average and thus 10hp is average. Raise human commander hp to 20 and Niefel Jarls and Basalt King should have hps in the realm of Pretender Gods. Personally, I wouldn't care if the game was patched to raise human hp though. Still I'm leaning to thinking that it's fine the way it is.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I think humans surviving a sword through the gut or being enveloped in a blast of fire is against the flavor of dominions. Personally, I like the fact that commander HP are done the same as soldier HP; it makes for a more gritty ("realistic" maybe?) fantasy world. If you don't like it, at least you can write a mod and increase the HP of the commanders you use.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I feel that human commander's HP are just fine. It seems normal that a single lightning bolt, or a hit by a giant, or even a well aimed arrow can kill them. They're pretty cheap and easily replaceable (it's good idea to have few spare commanders in your army). They're commanders because of their leadership skills, not because they're superhumans. Though they usually pretty good fighters and can often defeat 2 regular human soldiers.

And even Niefel Jarl can be wiped out in pretty much one shot. Ok, paralyze may not kill him outright, but routing work by a few soliders will finish him in that state.

I don't think it's a good idea to put too much equipment on those humans - they die quite easily. I'd usually put some cheap shield and armor so that they can survive stray arrows and, appropriate cheap magic booster when necessary. Of course, the end game is another story and you have to equip all your battlemages (armor and at least fire and cold resistance).

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Human mages would still be recruited over human commanders, independent commanders would still be the most often recruited type to lead units, and only human sacred/otherwise elite melee commanders would really benefit from this (they MIGHT have a minor use with the change)... except that the best of the best humans already have increased hitpoints. Paladin - 15 hp. Black Lord - 17 hp. Lord Warden of Man - 20 hp (although that's from a magical enchantment, LW of Chelms has "only" 14 hp.)
Some of that seems to be 2 bonus hp that heavy cavalry seem to have. Daimyos of Jomon only have 11 hp, but lesser Hatamotos have 12, so I quess Daimyos are meant to have 13. Hoplite Commander has 13 hp, Agema Commander has 15 hp, etc.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I think the thread starter's frustration comes from three reasons:

- he insists on entering the SC game
- he insists on making SC's out of humans
- he insists on playing a nation that doesn't fit his playing style. I could suggest playing Ulm, it has more HPs by default. By the way, I think sending Pathos to front line is misusing him - he has a strong Standard ability for a reason. Send the minotaur hero into battle, he can't really do anything else. 20+ hp and 16 base protection seems what you're looking for.

Personally I'm fine with the way humans are in Dominions. Dominions is the first game I see in a long time that doesn't pretend humans are demigods. Players are used to games where it takes like 20 sword hits to kill a human. (Warcraft3 ....)
Please notice that commanders in Dominions are called commanders, and not heroes. This is because, well, they're not heroes. You have to work hard to become a hero. Dominions has a mechanic for this called Heroic Ability.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Which reminds me of...

Would be nice if the heroic abilities made sense. It's annoying to get valor or quickness for a mage. When your SC-non-caster gets some semi-useless reinvigoration(not useless, but I'd prefer quickness or somesuch):/

In my last singleplayer game I actually waited to get a melee guy with quickness before I made anyone a prophet. Combined with imprisoned pretender I played my first 30 turns without propher or a pretender:)

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Hit points are not jack.

In my last game a 300+ Hp pretender jumped into a little slot between my blessed Wardens and my H inf all backed by longbows with aim. The fact it took 3 rounds to kill him is a tribute to the +95 hp for domain that he had.

This is a army game. Commanders die like flies no matter how many hit points. If he survives a few front line conflicts he'll be damaged or marked.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I think a difference should be made between normal humans and surhuman heroes. It's a shame to see most warrior type heroes useless except as normal leaders, they need more than 20hp to have an use as heroic warriors (I would even say 25-30 hp + recup or regen, as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells, luck is an option but too random and easy to have with gear, 50% all resist is another-) . Anything that have high chances to be one-shoted by a fireball or a level 3 summon is not a med-fan heroic warrior. Anyway, normal, recruitable, humans are not supposed to be exceptionnal warriors, and I find normal to see them having less than 20 hp.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Agreed. I don't have a problem with most of the non-mage human commanders being fragile. They're there to lead troops.

It's the human melee heroes that are a problem. They should be special and it seems worthless to just use them like indy commanders. Since Hall of Fame heroes can get hp increasing abilities, it doesn't seem out of line to boost some of the national heroes hp.

There are a few recruitable types (Paladins & Black Lords were mentioned) that don't seem to have any real purpose other than to be thugs, but they're really too fragile for that. Does anyone actually use them?

I'd also suggested, in another thread, an item that would add 10-15 hp. Enough to really help out the human thugs, but little enough to not be worth it on real SCs.

And Forrest, if that pretender had been kitted out as an SC he would have ignored the longbows and your Heavy Infantry. The blessed Wardens might have done some damage, depending. Hps are just a buffer to ward against lucky shots and to give time for life drain & regen to work.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

E9N4 Paladins can make decent thugs, they also have high leadership, good movement and can bless your knights of the chalice.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Wrong. Hp is here precisely to represent creatures who are more sturdy and can resist more damage dealt to them. I know there are some games out there that use this oversimplification (especially D&D) but here it's not the case. Titans aren't harder to hit with bows and crossbows, they're just more resistant. And you certainly can improve your toughness to a certain degree with exercises. Also, some people are just tougher than others.

Dominions is actually pretty realistic game. In real life, you can't count on dodging arrows on bullets. There's no contradiction here - even heroes have to obey basic rules of physics. Strenght of heroes often comes from skills. That's what I like about Dominions.

They can't be all heroes. Simple. You can never protect your thugs from everything. And it's clearly intentional judging by the way Illwinter changed buff spells in Dominions3. Many buff spells now add a disadvantage such as poison vulnerability.
Contrary to what some people (coming from shallow fantasy RPGs, no doubt) say, some armor and a shield is not wasted on a commander. If it was so simple, everyone would use commanders like Tien Chi's eunuch (essentially 9hp 0 prot, no equipment or something very similar). And people would kill themselves over a chance of playing Pangaea, because even small amount of harpies would be able to instantly kill all enemy commanders.
Really, there are still dangers, even if you command an army from rear row. Howl, Imps, harpies, arrows...

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system. The other approach for hp, using a low number for humans even exceptionnal + abilities like defense to avoid to be hit also came from RPGs (call of cthulhu, runequest etc...), but is far worse to simulate med fan warrior type heroes and make them useful in a strategy game, as dominions shows it. The main caracteristic of the cthulhu/runequest concept of hp is to be far more random, as it is "you dodge or die fast" instead of "the better you are the slower you die". Too much random to give a reason to risk gear on heroes used as warriors when there are summons with far more hp (or other stats have to be so better that this system would favor heroes far more than some use of the D&Dian hp concept).

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Maybe it'd make sense if human heroes were giving extra experience to the troops they lead (some small bonus, let's say +3 per month). It is thematic and seems to fit into Dominion concept. Another option is to make some such heroes have +1 morale on the battlefield effect. Those look like effects real human heroes might have had.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I agree with everything that's been said against humans having extra hp. The reasons are solid. That said, I see no reason why a magic item couldn't be included in the game that would bump up hp. Maybe +15. Not a huge boost gameplay-wise, but it would help out human SC heroes while ofcourse draining that nation of valuable gems (I'm thinking 1 type that would cost 5 earth and 5 nature at const 6 and 1 type, possibly +25, that would cost 25 blood at const 4). Certainly, it should atleast further lead astray those who play with SC humans. And it could be decent, in combination with regeneration-to stick on a very weak human pretender, incase that pretender is going out-dominion, which he or she probably shouldn't be.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I've always liked how in Dominions HP is clearly tied to size. A human will die much easier than giant, and a giant will die much easier than an ancient Kraken. It makes such perfect sense, and there are very few exceptions to it.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

If you want to mod in Medieval Fantasy Heroes, higher hp works. But I'm glad they are not in the base game, humans surviving arrows and spells in a war zone doesn't fit in dominions.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I entirely disagree. In legends and books you do NOT see heroes that get hit by axes and swords and fireballs, and just chuckle and say, "Sorry, I'm a Hero(tm), and you will need to impale me another 50 times before it will have any effect!"

That's D&D, and the unwashed ocean of unimaginative-designed computer games that follow its mold.

In heroic legend and fiction, as well as in movies and in real life, extremely successful heroes survive combat by avoiding getting hit with a battleaxe (etc), through skill, luck, cunning, knowing when to run away, etc.

The other thing that makes heroic tales and heroes is 20/20 hindsight, not that some people are branded heroes and given the ability to ignore getting impaled, etc. That is, for every war hero, there are many others who in theory may have been just as tough, but who died or otherwise didn't get an opportunity to do anything heroic.

This I do agree with. Dominions currently offers many summons which are not only better than most regular humanoids, but are also more cost-effective once one has the means to summon them. So in a competetive multi-player game, after that point, it becomes the smart strategy to give the best magic items to those guys. Also, by that point in the game, battlefield magic is also really strong and cost-effective, also making humanoid thugs quite vulnerable. I see those as just logical effects of the magical arms race and the cheap costs given to high-powered magic, and not a reason to make a group of heroic humans with lots of hit points.

Using human thugs is one of my own favorite parts of Dominions, and I do it both in single-player and multi-player, though in multi-player late-game it's often not very cost-effective compared to the alternatives. It's a compelling challenge for me to try to keep my mortals alive and effective in the face of increasing magical threats. My approach to improve things is to make mods which help by offering a different magic cost balance, so human thugs can be closer to cost-effective even into the late game.

PvK

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

It's why the D&Dian definition of hit points is "capacity to survive" *including all non conventional ways to avoid being hit*. The old D&D system even (perhaps not the last editions, I've stopped at AD&D 1 and this kind of concepts have been denatured by extra rules to sell paper since then) only included hp and armor (a little influenced by dexterity), not things like parry, acrobatic moves, zigzag runs to avoid missiles, having a bible which stop a bullet (oops Conan not Robert Mitchum), use of the corpse of a dead soldier as a shield, or any other thing Conan or Fafhrd will do 42 times per book. It's also why I consider logical if extra hp are given to heroes to represent that to give them also recuperation or regeneration to reduce the number of afflictions, as the extra h(it/eroic) points they lose are not supposed to represent real wounds in the heroes case (personnally I don't believe in culturism giving more than 1 or 2 "real" hit points).

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, Minotaurs won't swing their axes at any enemy smaller than themselves, and magic is everywhere. Realism and common sense take a back seat to playability and theme in dominions.

In both real legends and "shallow fantasy RPGs" (quoted to preserve the snootiness), heroes are heroic because of their extraordinary skill, strength, power, etc. But this didn't really translate that well into dominions, where most of the heroes didn't get enhancements that are statistically significant enough to make them survivable in combat. I'd really like to see an official implementation of the Worthy Heroes mod or something similar.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Thinking of HP as "heroic (survival) points" is an abstraction that might satisfy some players for a while. But it's not a very accurate abstraction, and of course leads to characters being practically unkillable until they wear out, which is good if your goal is to avoid making players sad by seeing their characters die by any sudden bad luck. Of course, when the HP run out in such a system, suddenly the character can't afford to stay in combat.

Personally, I enjoy that Dominions has more detailed game mechanics that more directly represent things like fatigue, luck, defense skill, etc, instead of lumping things into a big buffer of hitpoints. I also enjoy the unpredictableness of the results, and the sudden tragic injuries and losses (and successes) against the odds. I think a lot of interesting and sense-making cause-and-effect would be lost if a bunch of bonus hitpoints were thrown on some human characters to keep them alive (though I can see that some players would enjoy doing so in a mod in order to have it play more like games they're used to).

To increase the power and survivability of some heroes, I'd sooner give them higher Defense, Luck, MR, Air Shield (representing caution/tactics/dodging/whatever), or even a few points of Prot (representing toughness or the ability to do something to reduce wound severity), before I'd resort to dumping on HP.

As for arguments that "it's a fantasy game; it shouldn't be realistic" - bah! The detail and realism of the framework and non-magical statistics are what give the magical stuff context, meaning, and proportion. Without the foundation of realistic systems and appropriate values, the magic and fantastic stuff would lose its meaning. In Dominions, if a spell says it will rip people limb from limb, it really will - but as soon as people's Hit Points start multiplying, it's also nerfing the fantastic and removing its meaning - the giants would no longer be giants compared to men, etc.

As for citing weaknesses of the representation of assassination and trampling, those are just weaknesses, not intentionally put there to improve "playability and theme"!

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Realism is not mutually exclusive with fantasy. And yes, most RPGs are shallow, disconnected from reality, common sense, history. What I like about Dominions is that it feels much more real than most of game worlds out there. You never see an item described like 'This is a very manly talisman, and a woman wearing it will speak in low voice, or even grow a beard' in other games. This is because, unlike many others, Dominions draws heavily from history, real world beliefs, psychology etc.
Funny how you become original by drawing heavily from history and real-world myths.

I, in turn, find it amusing that so many people can't accept that cannon fodder can also exist in ancient/medieval styled worlds. Make one different fantasy game with cannon fodder and suddenly you missed the One True Way. I don't think it's a coincidence that sides are called Nations instead of Races, and Commanders instead of Heroes.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

May I ask which heroes you feel bend the system? I felt that I was pretty stingy with giving hp boosts and I think noone has more than 2 times as much as the base unit after which he is modelled, which was my upper limit.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

So you believe that Dominions invented the faceless thug, and that it's suddenly become the step in game design? Would you also find it more realistic (and therefore better) to eliminate the magic summons or abstact them to re-skinned HI? Magic is, after all, part of the mythology & fantasy aspect of the game which you hold in such disdain.

Realism and fantasy are not mutualy exclusive, but they are by definition not entirely compatible. The issue is where you chose to sacrifice realism for fantasy and where you uphold history. Human heroes feature prominently in every single mythology, legend, and culture upon which Dominions is based, yet they are unworkable in the game. I agree that this is realistic. But it is also unthematic and untrue to the source material of the game. It's also pretty disappointing to finally get a national hero event (notice the distinction from "commanders" which are recruitable), only to find out that it's just some useless human "hero" with 2 more att than a normal schmuck. This isn't an irrational desire to impose "The One True Way" on anybody, this is an opportunity to improve the game.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

You took the words out of my mouth.

1. It's not like this game is intended to be historical or "realistic" a la the Total War series. Even then, the Total War series had certain units (remember the sword saint in the original version? and Generals after certain boots became near-superhuman in many versions) that defied conventional logic, units that could single-handedly take on hundreds of units.

2. I also noticed the "snoot[y]" comment you isolated--which must've been directed at me since I am the original poster. I suppose I must be a total loser because I must've played "shallow fantasy" games in the past (which is an unwarranted speculation itself, as I prefer strategy games). Truly amusing. I didn't know that there was a caste system among hardcore gamers.

3. To put things in perspective, I think I should re-emphasize it's not a dramatic HP point increase I am asking; i.e., I am not asking human commanders to be in anyways comparable to Basalt Kings or Niefel Jarls or what not. Not even close. I am asking an increase to the extent that the more heroic or successful or exceptional human commanders can reach around 20 HPs, without being a Prophet or acquiring an HP-enhancing Heroic trait. 20. That is all. You would still have less than a third of what a Niefel Jarl has and way less than half of other heavy hitters like Dai Onis or Basalt Kings.

4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

The last guy to tell the general to not go for a morning walk alone was hanged. The general *always* goes for morning walks. Over fields. Too bad he's dead. Perhaps the next one will bring bodyguards.

Anyone got a quick reference to fun heroic tales that cant happen in current dominions?

Heroes != every recruitable commander.
 

Heroes, even in fantasy literature, are not exactly considered to be common. They're heroic due to persisting despite the fact that the odds ARE against them -- even the exceptional ones -- and because others WILL get stomped. Heroes try or die -- and the odds are that they die. Those piles of jewels, magical armor and ancient weapons lying around the dragon's lair didn't come from peasants or their goats. Those hordes of ravaging monsters are fearsome because they're NOT easy to defeat. That legendary beast which slew all the wannabe slayers for years... was killing those who thought themselves the best equipped, the bravest, the most skilled. Eventually, somebody succeeds and gets regarded as the savior of the realm to be respected while the also-rans get... some posthumous appreciation. Or the monsters run riot and destroy the kingdom, but that sort of dampens the ability to write sequels, and there aren't that many orcs or trolls to constitute a market for that sort of literature.

To make recruitable commanders have more hp to turn them into superhuman warriors is to ignore the point of heroism unless you're turning it into a vast nation of superior humans and pricing them accordingly. The few exceptional heroes themselves -- I'd concur with the notion that it's their skill, their guile, their luck, their willpower, and not too infrequently their gear that makes the most of the difference, at least for the humans. For half-human, half-sidhe champions or that sort of thing, other properties make some sense.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Commanders: What would be nice would be twofold:

- multiple levels of the standard ability (so a Firbolg with Valor, or an emerald lord, would have a greater effect than an ordinary Pythian standard bearer or centurion);

- lower all troops' morale, and to compensate give every commander a standard. Now taking along plenty of commanders to inspire the men -- and bringing good commanders -- would be important!

Heroes: I agree with what's been said here, and in the thread where someone first suggested giving the national heroes a boost in HP. The human melee heroes have awesome flavour, and are indeed superior to ordinary humans, but ultimately aren't much more useful than ordinary commanders. Try to use them as thugs, and you will be down a hero. Since all the fancy abilities (lifedrain, regen, etc) won't matter much if one lucky sword stroke can cut them down, I think increasing their HPs to 20ish is the simplest, most balanced way of boosting them. You still won't see them taking on armies by themselves, but with proper equipment, they could be quite decent army-supporting mini-thugs.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I prefer, in principle, the better gear/abilities approach. However, I'm not sure it would be as useful in practice, for the reason mentioned above. Besides, you could also argue that heroic persistence/determination could lead to more HPs... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Rudeness: I see your point, but it only seems to be a minority. Please, hang around? The more of us here -- even as lurkers, like myself -- the better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Heroes != every recruitable commander.
 

Taqwus,

Let me make two points.

First, again, I think you--like other posters here--are vastly (to be ironic here) exaggerating the level of HP increase I would prefer. In fact, I would say you and others are misrepresenting my argument to discredit me. So let me put things into perspective.

A base HP of around 20 for a human nation's best melee commanders would be only 7-8 HP increase from the current commanders. For some human nations (e.g. Ulm), it would be an increase of only 4-5 hit points. Does such a modest gain really constitute tranmogrifying these commanders into "superhuman" (your adjective) Herakles and Beowulfs? Oh, my. I think the true heroes of legend would be insulted, to put it mildly. Herakles (who by the way an offspring of a mortal and a god, a la our own Pathos) single-handedly took out monsters that would be represented by units with over 100 HPs in this game!

Even from a "realistic" perspective, is it so implausible to consider that the very toughest, meanest human soldiers can be 70-80 percent more or even twice as tougher or durable than your common everyday soldier? Humans display an amazing variety, and if you have read the annals of warfare throughout the ages, some men are clearly capable of--whether through simply a hardier constitution or willpower--shrugging wounds that would incapacitate or even kill the vast majority of men.

I can understand the uproar if I actually suggested that human commanders ought to have 30-40 HPs, but really, I think you protest too much in this context.

Second, okay, you say that genuine heroes "are not exactly... common" even in fantasy literature.

Fine. Would you then consider it permissible to at least apply the HP increase I suggest to national "heroes" we get? There aren't too many of them per nation (save a few exceptions), so having 3-4 humans per nation with such "superhuman" traits would not be so "common" or unbalancing in my opinion.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Arralen thought that the lack of manual on your side has less to do with you playing the game's demo, and more to do with you obtaining a copy of the game in what we call here* cynically "my uncle from america"
Furthermore, I'm sure by looking at the date I registered and my post count you can see I've been here for a while (though much less time than the veterans, and quite a lot of none-veterans like myself), and I can tell you from experience that this community usually treats other people (including new guys) quite well, and often much better than in other communities I frequent**, with the exception of few who tend to be a bit more flame-happy (but are otherwise nice people).


*-here being Israel, but I'm sure you get my point.
**-This has a bit to do with the average age over here, but also about this being a small and "sheltered" community, in another forum I visit, seeing spam posts from random bored people, registering just to annoy other people, is not uncommon.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Agarajag,

I am not sure what you meant by the following statement:

"If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Arralen thought that the lack of manual on your side has less to do with you playing the game's demo, and more to do with you obtaining a copy of the game in what we call here* cynically 'my uncle from america'".

Regardless, I have made it clear that the primary reason I don't have a copy of the game is because my old computer has a CD-drive malfunction, and that I have ordered a new computer from Dell to replace it. Further, it makes no sense for me to have the full game when I can't play it until the new computer arrives. In fact, I have even started a thread asking what computer specification is needed to play the game tolerably, and further posted the specification of the computer I have ordered from Dell.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Why not give some heros, points of experience as their already gained,and boost them by that? Some of those heros have been fighting a long time

Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

...in particular, it gives a way of distinguishing those that between veteran heroes who are unusually good mostly because of their experience (and thus who may not have that much room to improve, instead of getting 5 stars worth of additional experience and bonuses) versus those who have more innate potential (ex. the extremely lucky, the assorted spawn of philandering deities, et al).

But ordinary humans... are humans. Doesn't really matter how hardy they are when they've just been disemboweled with a trident or bitten in two by a dragon. High Defense, maybe even innate Air Shield (extreme skill at missile dodging) or if Luck were more granular rather than 50-50 always, perhaps lower encumberance reflecting staying power... most aren't walking around after being almost entirely dipped in the Styx, or bearing arms from the forges of Hephaestos, or walking around with god's blood.

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

...And if they were, they'd be Pretenders. :P

At any rate, I suppose a line needs to be drawn between 'mundane' realism and 'suspension of disbelief' realism. In D&D HP is an abstraction, but just looking at the hitpoints of units in this game tells you they're not. The other RPGs people speak of are all centered on your party, so making them so vulnerable is a bad idea. In Dominions, between aging, afflictions, 'commander attack' spells, etc, it's obvious the 'characters' aren't meant to be constants to any extent.

...That's not to understate the effectiveness of an ordinary general on the frontlines with an attack-boosting item and a Wave Breaker. Just not alone. Also bring a backup general.

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

It's effectiveness is decent until you run into a holy three priest who kills him in an average of two turns (For a commander with MR 10).

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

Well it wouldn't be so bad for heroes like Conan the Barbarian who fit into dominions' setting to have some sort of ability to get into scraps and survive. Either through really high attack and defense skills or some sort of heroic ability that lets them get a stat boost when they're in a tough spot.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

'my uncle from america' is an expression, describing something obtained from dubious sources, specifically, pirated games.
Furthermore, check out the Lich pretender, he has 30 HP, and that's because his body is "leathery and dry and lacks all organs of importance"
The ***** Queen has 25 hp, and she is a giant werewolf.
A Pheonix has 15 hp.
And I'd say its pretty obvious that there are more pretenders with even less HP, which are less worthy of mention.

So a boost to 20 HP is not minor thematically, and besides increasing a unit from 13 hp to 20 hp is a ~54% boost! (which would make them more than ~54% more valuable and useful)

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

I find it weird that people find this a problem.

If 10hp is the 'average human', I then personally know people in real life who have less than 5hp, and people who have way over 20hp.

Why don't our FANTASY heroes have the variety that is present even in our normal everyday life?

If someone failed to understand, I don't see any realistic, thematic, moral or balance reason why human heroes should have 15hp or so maximum. I just fail to see _ANY_ reason why they have to be so brittle.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

I wouldn't say boost to 20 hp is thematically major, but it IS huge when compared to other units.

I don't think low hp are a problem. It makes some people's preferred tactics hard to pull off. There are many theoretical ways we can fix this, some of which might get more uniform support. We can't mod these things yet, and perhaps never will be able to, but here we go:

- Every star of experience gives an extra hitpoint. Some would opt for more than 1 hp, e.g. 1,1,2,1,2 hp. A 3-star human would have 3-5 extra hp (depending on suggestion), so 16 to 18 (if they started from 13, common for melee commanders).

- Lycanthropos' Amulet boosts the base unit instead of transforming the unittype. +1 att, +4 str, +10hp, "Bite" attack, regen, a downside or two. Again, details change between people.

I'm not sure why I even wrote this post, btw. It doesn't really add anything.

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

While I like how the game currently treats human commanders I also understand that some people want more human heroes, heck I would like that myself. Isn't it possible to keep the commanders as they are and create a new unit for human nations that is called Hero. This unit could be abit better at certain things including HP. The best thing would be if it could be randomized (kinda like mages with magic) on certain skills. They should be quite abit more expensive though as heroes do demand more treasures than regular people.Also they should have zero commanding ability and leave that to the regular commanders.

Can anyone with the skills make a hero mod like that?

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

If that is the case, then he was being a jack ***--pure and simple. Someone comes to a game forum looking for more information on the game before he buys it, and he is warrantlessly treated like a common thief?

WTF?

It also says a lot about the intelligence of such a person. If I actually had a copy of the full game (pirated or not) why would I be asking Endoperez and others for more photos of units that interest me--and ask other questions that clearly indicate that I do not know what happens in late-game?

But then I suppose behind the veil of anonymity online, you can throw out any kind of scurrilous accusations about someone, because you are not accountable.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Endoperez,

I don't mind an HP boost via additional levels; in fact, I have already thrown out that suggestion.

Since you have broached the topic of what is possible and what is not possible in terms of modding, can base unit stats be easily modded by a computer illiterate like me?

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

There already are heroes, you get them with (at least) positive luck scales. That's the point (I think) of this thread to begin with that human heroes suck:)

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

Yes, Hullu. The "variety" argument is precisely why I said that it is actually "realistic" for some humans to have considerably higher HPs than the average man.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Well, I did just say that's my guess as to what he thought.
Beyond that... The veil of anonymity is also a great way for someone with an illegal copy of the game to go unnoticed, and in this case make do without a manual.
Also, since the manual is one of the selling points of this game, I could see why we would not want to make manual knowledge available to those who don't pay for it.

Also, did you consider that option that Arralen just didn't see the part where you had no manual (and maybe even felt a bit upset at how lazy you are not checking the manual http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif)


Either way I don't see why you have to get so upset, you did get your answer after all, and considering how you are just another anonymous person over here, there's no reason not to be suspicious. Other than being curteous to other people.

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

Hey don't be rude.... I'm very well aware of the predone heroes that appears randomly. And I do agree that some of those human heroes do suck. In the initial post he also mention that commanders should have more HP than the regular guy, and I disagree with that I do think commanders feels quite good now, they are there to command. Getting free heroes is also great even if they aren't as good as they perhaps should be, but it would also be fun to have a recruitable hero with variable skills (such as some mages with magics).

Re: Extra starting experience would make sense...
 

Moddable xp effects would be good and please everyone (as it gives freedom to add more hp or other stats or not, or even reduce some actual effects if a modder want, and this in a mod far easier to do than one changing the base stats of dozens of units) it's in good place in my wishlist of mod commands.

Re: What about luck?
 

How much variety in hp is there really in real life? If your head is cut off you die. If you take an arrow in the lung then in real life you're not fighting any more, no matter how big and tough you are.

But I agree that human heroes need a boost. If some heroes had "super-luck" (80% or higher even)then that alone would greatly improve their survivability, and still be in character.

"Whether it is the favour of his God, the Fates, or the universe itself, X has an uncanny ability to trip over just as the fatal blow slices through the space where his head was moments before."

Re: What about luck?
 

Depends a lot.

I know a guy in rl who feels almost no pain, I don't know how you could really model this into an mmorpg but a guy like that would certainly be combat-capable a _LOT_ longer than the average guy.

Then come blunt weapons, physical size helps a LOT against blunt weapons. Whereas a small guy fractures a bone a really big guy is hardly even hurt.

Piercing weapons? You need to pierce a LOT further on a 110kg Conan compared to a 45kg geek - again more durability.

Sharp cutting edges, even on those you need considerably more force to cut 'all the way to the bone' if there's triple the amount of flesh in the way.

The smaller it is, the easier it is to kill. I'd BET there's differences of hundreds of percentages when it comes to survibability from trauma when it comes to humans. Actually no need to bet on that, everyone knows that.

So back to your questions:
It is actually considerably harder to cut the head off a big man, than from a small man. If you 'only' cut to the bone, surviving is possible, with modern medicine, and certainly with healing spells.

On the big man the arrow might not penetrate all the way to the lung, thus creating a 1-3hp damage instead of 100% hp damage.

Re: The problem of low hit points on humans
 

Modding is done by editing text files. There is a syntax (simple rules). As an example, to give MA Ulm's Black Lord mounted commander 20 hp instead of 14, you'd have to :

1) select the correct unit
2) change the things you want
3) deselect the unit

In this case, it'd be just the matter of writing:

#selectmonster "Black Lord"
#hp 20
#end

into a valid mod file. A valid mod file is a text file with ".dm" ending instead of ".txt", and at least line #modname "Something".

To change Ulmish infantry units, you can't use just their name, as they all have the same name. You have to use their unit id number. You can see this number by pressing Shift+i (I) while viewing a unit's description. To change the hp of all MA Ulm's infantry, you'd have to change hps of units 67, 68, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80.

Demo doesn't support mods, and the modding.pdf only comes with the full version. All existing modding commands are described in there. If there's no command, you can't add or change the ability.