Base Design Theory
 

Hey all, I'm slowly starting to get the hang of things, but had a small question regarding base design.

I designed a Ship Repair Base the other night and after it was built it immediately showed an out of supply icon. I had supplied it with a Solar panel to have it generate supplies.

My questions in general:
a) It is a repair base and had no weapons - does it need supply?

b) As I mentioned it has solar panels, but also is in a system with multiple resupply depots. Do I need at least a 5kT supply module for the base to receive supplies at all?

c) As far as I can tell supply only seems to affect things like movement and cloaking - anything else?

Re: Base Design Theory
 

a. Probably.
b. Solar panels and resupply depots only fill up existing supplies. If the supply has nowhere to go, its useless. So yes, you do.
c. It -might- prevent repair bays and other components from functioning.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

a) No; all of the shipyard bases I build are in orbit of planets with resupply depots. None of them need supplies and supplies are not even called for by either the Space Yard or Repair Bay components according to the Components.txt file. However the newly built ships will need supplies or suffer the regular penalties. You said it is a repair base? No offense but if you built a base that only has the Repair Bay component on it (as in no Space Yard component) in my humble opinion you have managed to build a motionless maintenance draining hog.

b) As I said in (a) you don’t need supplies for the base, only the weapons if the base has any and for newly built ships. Your Solar Sail component will be generating supplies but without a place to store those supplies (i.e. a ship or planet in the same sector with available storage capacity) the supplies will disappear at the start of the turn. When SE runs the turn sequence it generates supplies first, distributes supplies second, then stores left over supplies third. Note that two and three could be reversed but the end effect will be the same from the players’ point of view.

c) Not that I have found. Note that point defense cannons do not need supplies (hint, hint).

Re: Base Design Theory
 

A) Why would a repair base be useless? I built as many as 3 at some planets using the standard space station hull and 5ish repair bays, this is great help when you are retrofitting a fleet or it takes forever to complete. A repair base is a perfectly sensable design IMO. Also a ship built at a shipyard base gets full supplies no matter what as far as I know, I've never seen a ship drain a bases supplies when its built if thats what your implying?

Re: Base Design Theory
 

That was my thinking, I use the small base hull with 5 repair bays, some armor, shielding, and some PD. One of those single handedly saved a planet for me since my fleet barely won, but was gutted.

Between the planet's shipyards, a shipyard base, and my repair base they were up and going in a couple of turns.

Also, like you said GREAT for retrofits.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

I’m not sure what you meant by never seen a ship drain a bases supplies when it’s built. I said that a ship will need supplies when it’s built or suffer the regular penalties for being out of supply. Could you elaborate more on what you are trying to say and how it correlates to what I said?

Here are a few reasons why I feel repair ships are better to build than repair bases: 1) Bases can’t move ships can. 2) If I am doing a massive fleet overhaul I can summon as many repair ships to that location as I want. Otherwise I would have to build repair bases then mothball or scrap them later. That would be a waste of time and resources. 3) My borders are always changing and my fronts are always shifting from war to war. If I built bases they would be left behind in what will eventually become my core systems. Then they will be useless unless I want to summon my fleets all the way back. With repair ships I can move to the fleets and repair them on location. 4) You are going to pay maintenance either way you go. I would prefer to pay more and get full mobility. 5) In every mod I can recall the repair bay is always smaller than the ship yard. That is specifically so that they can be mounted in a ship and moved. Do you see the mobility them here? Mobility is key to waging a successful war. And as I told StarJack, I need plenty of slaves to clean dem’ crappers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

No matter which philosophy you choose as long as you are having fun that is all that matters.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

How did a base with PD stop an attacking enemy? Or do you mean the repair base helped to get the ships repaired before the enemy attacked and the ships saved the planet? I would like to see the mod you are playing that allows PD to blow ships to atoms. The point is your bases PD didn’t defend the colony, something else with weapons did. Would that have of happened if you built repair ships? Maybe, maybe not! What I know for sure is that planet in the next system over will not be as lucky if your repair assets are fixed!

As for the retrofit point I think I have already explained the myth away. You may retrofit at a location once or twice, maybe even a few times more if your expansion is slow. Otherwise your refits will take place at now points throughout your empire. Mobile yards can go to those points, fixed bases need to be built over, and over, and over, and over…

Re: Base Design Theory
 

Great discussion. I agree, mobility all the way. In fact, as I read your posts I was thinking, hmmm, yeah, that happened to me... yeah, hmmm repair ships would have been nice.. etc. ect...

The only question is, do you get a bonus in repair rate or capacity when the repair bay is at a starbase as opposed to on a ship.

Frankly, I would think that would be realistic and might be some fixed repair bases worth a bit more.

Thanks,

Javaslinger

Re: Base Design Theory
 

The repair bay component doesn’t get any bonuses from population level; just tech level. The only other bonus you get is from the reduced maintenance of it being a base; regardless of type. Shipyards come with the ability to repair but if you need to increase that ability and you prefer not to use repair ships I would strongly recommend building a repair bay with the shipyard; in other words a single base design that has both. You can always up the number of repair bays in the design if you want. However, one shipyard and one repair bay should do most any job nicely. After all how often are you going to need that extra repair rate? At least this way the repair bay will still pay for itself since it will be piggy backing off the shipyard.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

No, I wasn't implying the PD blew ships up to save the planet. Perhaps I was unclear when writing. The base repaired the ships between enemy attacks.

Also, if we're talking efficiency. If I don't need movement I'm paying for engines I don't need with repair ships. With a cruiser hull you'll be lucky to get 2-3 repair bays, while a base will have 5-6. So you need twice as many ships to do the work of one base, which means 2x as many support spaces, plus engines.

FYI, I actually have a blend of repair ships and bases. I usually have a trailing fleet of support ships (supply, repair, and construction) trailing my combat fleets.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

Of course, this assumes that you are actually winning a war http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Base Design Theory
 

I beg your pardon good Sir! I always win… Do you really think I would ever hold a toilet brush? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A support fleet is fine and I hope everyone uses some form of one. Also like I said as long as you are having fun that is what matters. I am a strong believer in mobility and while you are mothballing basses and building new ones I will just be pulling my repair ships up. Bases may be cheaper, I never said they weren’t. What I said was that you are going to be paying maintenance for “a” vehicle either way you go. I would prefer to pay mine for full mobility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Base Design Theory
 

I think we can agree to disagree here, both methodes of madness have merit. My thinking when I designed my repair bases was it was relitively early game and I hadent teched up to shipyard components yet (I didnt even know which level was needed for it). I had recently retrofitted a fleet of some 30 ships (1 by 1, I wish aaron would fix that, grr) without realizing how long it would take to repair all the ships with just the planetary shipyard. I dont know what size of fleets you usually work with but with moderatly early tech you need more then a few repair bays to repair a fleet of 20-30 ships in any short ammount of time. If I were to use repair ships it would take longer to produce and been far far more expensive since at the time I belive I only had destroyer, maybe early light cruiser hulls which could fit only a couple repair bays. Of course its not that I dont belive in repair ships, especially after that I made it manditory for each fleet to carry a couple frigate hull repair ships for quick repairs on the run.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

Grrr this drives me nuts about stock! In my mod you will be able to use freighter hulls as platforms for repair ships. And freighter hulls in my mod also have reduced maintenance costs, crew demands, and life support demands. I think Balance Mod does the same thing? Is that what you are using?

Agreed to disagree! Great discussion and thank you for joining me in it! I feel we both raised some very good points that will help other players to formulate their own plan without having to use the old hit-or-miss method.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

The Balance Mod allows a number of components to be counted as cargo including Supply/Ordnance Storage, Repair Bays and Space Yards.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

Yes! And yet another reason why it should be stock!

Re: Base Design Theory
 

Love the discussion, this is getting interesting, and it's really gotten me thinking - the point of discussion after all!

Historically speaking, AR's (or fleet repair ships) have been based off of merchant hulls, as with tenders. Glad to hear you adjusted this Kwok, I'm using your your mod and when I get home tonight will try out using my freighter hulls!

Do freighters also allow robominers to count as cargo?

Re: Base Design Theory
 

In Balance Mod they do.

Re: Base Design Theory
 

Woo Woo! Thank you Captain Kwok!

Is there a discussion area for your mod? Do you take suggestions? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif