What Is More Important To You?
 

I have read a great many posts over many forums about Space Empires V where posters raised issues about the lack of eye popping graphics and Empire At War quality eye candy game play.

So I ask you all what is more important to you, a games graphics, or a games game play?

For me it is hands down a games game play. EAW and its expansion pack, are great looking games, but they have no real game play depth and lack replayability past a week or two.

While SE V, albeit it not a runaway hit as of yet, may not have eye popping detailed graphics, does have it where it does count, in the game play depth department.

I often find myself wondering why any one would want graphics over game play? Sure eye candy is always welcome, but to be blunt and honest, what good is eye candy if the game has no challenge and lacks replayability?

EAW and its expansion are good games, but neither is worth the true value of a game like Space Empires V or even Dominion 3. Something has to be said about games like these, they are indeed masterspeaces in their own rights, and in my humble opinion, kick the utter arse out of many mainstream games.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Great, we're now 2 in the "Gameplay over Gizmo" club ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I would like to join the exclusive club as member #3

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

The way a game plays hands down no debates accepted! In the graphics department I prefer detailed 2-D graphics over 3-D.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Gameplay. Where do I pick up my membership card? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

You really need somewhat of a balance between graphics and game play.
In general terms

Great graphics and poor gameplay = quick game death. Word spreads quickly.

Great gameplay with poor graphics = a loyal but small following with little incentive for the programmer or publisher to continue.

In the SE series, if it wasn't for MM's dedication SE would have died long ago.

As far as SE V specifically, I prefer SEV's gameplay over the poor graphics. I've tried SEV on 3 different machines and have gotten 3 different results. If the UI and the main system view can be fixed the game would be a lot better off.

Sometimes I think an expanded SE IV graphics with SE V capabilities would have been the way to go.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Well yeah, Gameplay but the single player gameplay isn't there yet for SE5 anyway. Perhaps MP is working better.

I played through a SE5 Balance game last week (first time I'd stuck it out - 1.17 makes a big difference) and the AI is still pretty poor and no disrespect to the Balance mod should be implied but that's how it is RIGHT NOW.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Gotta be the gameplay. My imagination can fill in the graphics if needed.

Why else would I still be spending large amounts of time playing MOO2 online, a game that was released in 1996?

I am hopeful that SE5 will be the "next MOO2" for me, and it will be gameplay that makes that happen or not.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I agree completely with you AT...

Santiago I dont know when you were born, but I remember before there were video games. One of my all time favorite games was one I played on the the Atari 800. It was a wargame sim of Midway, and the graphics were all ascii characters. I played that game for hours, it was nail bitting sending out your fighters to attack the carriers, and you wait patiently for the text report of how many you lost, and how many carriers you hit and or sunk.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I thought that was an Atari 2600 game? Speaking of the 2600 my favorite was Megamania! Man I could sit and play that thing for hours and hours. My girlfriend at the time was over the night I rolled it three times. Funny I can recall the name of the game but not hers; short, blond, cute, and that’s about all I can recall. Oh and she had the cutest little button nose.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I'd take SEIV's graphics with SEV's game play ability, over any game with awesome graphics, but limited playability.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

SE IV graphics and SE V combat engine and modding abilities would absolutely satisfy me.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Game play! By far! I still like a little eye candy mind you (and ear candy for that matter), but that is secondary to having fun.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I fear I've been spoiled by the new graphics. However, I would prefer an SE4 graphics system with hex grids over the SE5 system that takes 20 minutes to process a turn with 13 players.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Gameplay, offcourse............

untill SEV I was still playing SEIV on a daily bases for more 6 years............ and was never bored, allthough I changed mods on a regular bases, WHICH OFFCOURSE is the power of SEIV and hopefully SEV

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Always the meat and potatoes of game play for me over flashy graphics.

Caius

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Unfortunately the graphics aren't at the root of that problem..

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I agree.

I've played games with 3-D graphics and I just don't get the appeal. I've got a 1 year old computer, and have found 3-D games to be nothing but resource hogs. They run slower, and that's about it.

A "pretty" picture doesn't give you any more game. With SEV I just don't see the point. I can zoom the system in and out, and rotate it, but after you've done that a few times (or a few dozen times), then what?

I don't have any additional resources to manage. The ship icons are too small. Diplomacy, from what I've been reading here, is broken. Other gameplay elements that I'd hoped for, things that would strengthen the illusion of running the government of an empire, are absent.

Give me a 2D game with crisp graphics and lots of empire-running options over 3D any day. SEIV. Caesar III. Pharoh/Cleopatra. Civ III. Victoria. Patrician II or III.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Ah, I remember that thread... May 2004, good times.

Here is the compiled, colorized and speed-limited version of the game that we ended up with:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/nick/t...Midway_exe.zip

PS:
If I wanted graphics over gameplay, I'd visit a movie theater...

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Good example, I remember a port of that game or a knock off to the XT. I also remember hundreds of hours running contraband in Elite on the C64! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I prefer gameplay to graphics, but sometimes I do want pretty graphics.

I think the real question is 'game quality'. For a 3D FPS, the graphics contribute quite a bit more to game quality than for a strategy game. For a roguelike, graphics contribute almost nothing and can detract, in my opinion. (I've noticed that graphical roguelikes seem to be simpler.)

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Gameplay, to be more specific: AI !!!

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Gameplay is what makes or breaks the game in my point of view. And in regards of strategy I care zero about graphics however if I play an FPS (which I do occasionally) gameplay still is more important but graphics is really vital, together I call it immersion.

When it comes to graphical poor games with a loyal fan base take a look at Dwarf Fortress. It's a RPG/Strategy gfame being developed using only ascii graphics but with ALOT of content. I love the game and next to Dominions 3 it's the best game around.

Check it out if you don't beleive me.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Gameplay is important to me, but I also like graphics. If it has ASCII graphics, or not that good 2D/3D graphics, I don't want to play it as much, often because it's a lot harder for me to use. I like being able to fiddle around with the viewpoint, and get a more 3D feel of whatever the game is.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

IMO it's not about how 'advanced' the graphics are, it's about if they're doing something for the game; creating a good atmosphere, etc. Music is also way underrated; probably since most games has mediocre music at best. Besides, a nice 2D game can look far better than a groundbreaking 3D game. I also feel that just about all 3D games handle much more awkwardly than the older 2D games.

At any rate, you can't make an enjoyable game without good gameplay. You can, however, make one without good graphics. You don't need high-res, full 3D to make chess fun. The only times I get annoyed over graphics is if they're making it hard to play the game; bad UI, hard to make out objects, etc.

So if it was up to me, SE V would be a highly advanced version of SE IV, where Aaron had taken all the time he spent on the new graphics engine and put it into improving the gameplay and AI instead.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Oh graphics over gameplay every time, definitely. In fact, i only ever play games with the latest cutting edge graphics that won't even run on my machine. In fact, as soon as I hear a game has decent gameplay I make a point of avoiding it because that means the graphics will suck. In fact, wherever possible, I don't play games at all- I just go to the cinema to watch whatever graphical CGI-effects-fest is just out, and that way I don't can just passively consume my entertainment without all the tiresome interactiveness of so-called "gameplay" in the least. In fact, I hate Space Empires, I'm not even here, and I don't really exist at a...

*dogscoff promptly disappears up his own sarcasm and, in fact, blinks out of existence altogether*

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

<PE Shang looking around> Man, I have this weird feeling someone was just talking? In fact I’m sure there was someone else here with me a minute ago. Ha, absurd no one else is here! I must have been day dreaming again! Still I can't get over this feeling...

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

People enjoy games and fiction with their imaginations. Game display and game play both contribute to that, but there's a huge range of what does the trick for different players. I don't need graphics except to help understand the situation, and I can get bored with a game just by looking at the box and seeing that it is a derivative shallow game design that could never come close to holding my interest. On the other end of the spectrum are kids I've seen who can enjoy the graphics of a game and have a great time - even if they haven't even realized that they aren't out of the "attract" mode display and aren't having any effect at all on what they're seeing while they grapple with the controls. Somewhere in the middle is the mass-market audience, who megabucks corporate managers still annoyingly think want graphics over gameplay.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Yep, me too. I enjoyed the ship damage model - it could take multiple turns to tell if the damage was going to be recoverable or not, with ongoing fires and flooding effects.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

narf poit chez BOOM said:
(I've noticed that graphical roguelikes seem to be simpler.)

I'd imagine that just has to do with the dedication of the programmers more than anything; roguelike graphical games usually just use tiles that don't take much time to make anyways.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

There was no reason for an SE-style game to be 3D, none at all.

A First Person Shooter has to be 3D, and that's where 3D belongs.

That old game, are you guys talking "Carriers at War"? I had that for my Apple IIc, and it rocked, no doubt. Even on a monochrome monitor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh, and as far as graphics vs gameplay, welll.....

I'll take a game with boobies over no boobies any day http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

No fair using the trump card! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Actually Ascendency had a true-3d system map, which was a decent reason to have 3D. And SEV has far more on screen at once in '3d' mode than it would in 2d (switch to top-down mode and note how much farther you have to zoom out to see all the hexes).

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Actually I was refering to a Battle of Midway game, which I believe was made by Avalon Hill...Carriers at War was as a great game, but that actually had some graphics, not just plain ASCII characters like Midway.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

hah, Battle of Midway!! I remember playing that in 5th grade, and it eventually led me to my career as a programmer. My buddy and I hacked the game and made US "Super carriers". Yes, that was my idea of fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

One of the best games I ever played is North Atlantic '86. It was a text game that actually made you feel like you were sitting in a war room someplace.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

I still play Pacific War, a game that came out in 1990. Back then it had many bugs but after a considerable amount of patches it turned into a little gem.The graphics are not great but the level of detail is immense.

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

Huh, I played the AH board game called Midway, and it was great good fun. But I don't recall a computer game by AH...

Re: What Is More Important To You?
 

id taken gameplay over this 3d stuff.


Sadly even EU3 is going the way of 3d =(

I hope it does better than this.