Whats so bad about the UI????
 

In countless posts I hear people complaing about the UI but rarely does anyone say what's so bad about it.

Frankly, I haven't had any issue. It seems functional to me. I can find everything. It has hotkeys... It has a nice menu from the right click that is context sensitive....

I'm just wondering what's so bad about it???

Thanks,

Javaslinger

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Did you play SEIV?

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Not in a long time, I don't really remember the differences.

I mean, I suppose it may be drastically different, but in my opinion, it seems to work perfectly fine. Everything is there. Most things are at your fingertips. It's functional and 'relatively efficient'.

If I have any complaints it would be that 'at first' things are a bit hard to find. And I suppose there may be more efficinet ways to do somethings.

But those are all about the learnig curve. Once you find things it all works pretty seamlessly and quickly.

Could it be improved? Sure, I'm sure everything could be.

It is HORRIBLE as I keep hearing. I really don't see why it's HORRIBLE....

Thanks,

Javasligner

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Oh, that’s why! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif However, I do think “horrible” is a bit too strong.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I think the biggest problem for people is ' being used to SEIV '

but after a few days of playing it's going really faster and easier with SEV, I really like the game and am hoping that more mods and shipsets will come ASAP........

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I really only have a few gripes left with the SE:V UI. This primarily includes the retrofit order and accessing the queue settings (emergency build, send to, etc). A few other little items exist that I like to nag MM about, but otherwise I've become just about as efficient in the UI as I was with SE:IV.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I like the UI overall, and of course there are little changes I would like to see, but the fact that any menu takes my computer down to the 20 FPS range makes it a real pain to use any menu. Having to wait even half a second because of how slowly the cursor updates on menus makes any significant amount of micromanagement feel much, much more troublesome.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I dislike the lack of immediate information. The UI in SE IV provided a lot of valuable info at a glance. The use of tabs in SE IV would have been a very welcome addition to the UI in SE V. I find using the SE V UI comberson, frustrating, and uninspiring. It sucks all of the enjoyment out of the game for me.

I have made dozens of suggestions to improve the UI but as of yet only a few have been used. The mouse, you should have seen the old mouse pointer they had. Getting that replaced was a victory for all players of SE V.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I'm in complete agreement with Atrocities.


I'd like to add that the main reason people are becoming use to the new UI is because of Shortcut Keys.

SE:V is completely dependent on shortcut keys.

In SEIV I never used shortcut keys, cause everything I needed was a mouse click or two away. I don't want to have to hover over my keyboard.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I have a list at home I'm creating, but in a nutshell:

- way too many clicks and operations to get routine things done.
- not being able to see the info you want on the screen where you can change what you want.
- cumbersome layers/levels of screens.
- cumbersome methods to determine important info.
- inconsistencies between screens.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

cumbersome is probably the most important word here.

-> agreed

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Now that I've gotten used to it, the UI isn't that bad.

The one main complaint I do have, however, is the ship design UI, it is much too tedious and I miss the simplicity of SEIV.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

One more vote for "overly cumbersome".

Plus it takes too many clicks.

My question is, what the **** was wrong with the SE4 interface, that it had to be changed? Why did all the KB shortcuts need to be changed?

It's the same ****ing game, people. It's just an updated version. There are no major changes which required a total rework of the UI.

And don't take the rampant asterisks to mean that I'm all upset. I'm not. I'm just profane by nature http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Considering the entire game is basically remade, I guess it's natural with a change in UI as well. Unfortunately, reinventing the wheel didn't lead to an improvement in this case.

As I see it though, the shortcomings of the UI unfortunately pales when compared to the other issues the game has right now.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I agree with Raapys.

The UI is definately cumbersome, but it seems a minor issue compared to the other problems.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Meh, people need to get their left thumbs out of whatever - Removed by Moderator - and start using it. Seriously, unless you are gimped from the neck down somehow there's no good reason not to use a PC with both hands unless you're - Removed by Moderator - busy cramming cheese powder coated salty fried nummies into your gullet. I've noticed this too among people who dislike RTS type games, calling them confusing clickfests, when in most RTS games there are hotkeys that can greatly ease the load off the mouse.

Most routine ship operations only take eihter 2 clicks, a hotkey and a click, or for cargo a short series of double clicks. Only the research and build lists need a whole lot of clicks, and the design screen needs upper, mid and lower hotkeys with an add item button.

Moderator Note: - Removed offensive material. Please keep your posts in agreement to the TOS of this forum. Thank you.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

*A series of double clicks*

Whereas, in SE4, you needed only single clicks.
Load, there, this. Drop, there, that. Repeat Orders. 7 clicks/keys total, if it is in the same system.

Whoever gave Aaron the idea that everything needs an "OK" confirmation for SE5 did a lot of damage.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

In all honesty, even as a long-time player of SEIV, I don't really have any major gripes with the SEV UI. This is not to say I don't have SOME gripes, but I don't consider them major.

• One part of the UI that annoys me is the ship design. It really needs to be able to switch "decks" easier, especially while currently holding a component.
• Another UI gripe I have is lists and moving items up and down in the lists. Every time I move an item up or down, it moves the display to the top of the list. This is one of my biggest gripes about the UI, actually.
• Lists also need "move to top" and "move to bottom" buttons.
• Finally, while I like the listings of colonies, fleets, etc and how you can pick and choose which columns to show, I hate that you can't widen the damn window to fit more columns in. The window is too damn narrow and I keep having to switch views in order to see enough information.

All of these are very specific gripes. Three of the four I suspect would take less than 2 hours total for Aaron to fix. But he currently has more important problems to solve, and I agree with his priorities, personally.

So, despite the above list of UI gripes, I don't really mind the SE V UI. It's certainly a lot more modern than the SE IV UI and I think with a few minor fixes (and one possibly semi-major one), it would be just fine.

My REAL gripe with SE V really doesn't have anything to do with the game, but with the lack of a modder's guide or at least clear documentation in the data files about what the fields do and what their possible values are. *shrug* Wrong thread for that one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I'd add the following:

• Sluggish mouse cursor (especially painful during ship design).
• Hot-keys only exist for top level functions (none show for options within most dialogs) and SEV's "modeless" UI means you can't be sure which open window receives a keypress either (try naming a ship design using T during the tutorial for example).
• Many windows (ship design, colony details, planet/colony lists) would benefit from enlargement with higher screen resolutions.
• The right-click menu can have too many options and appear disorganised as a result - a radial menu could be one way around this.
• Switching between selectable items in a hex (ship, planet, warp point) is cumbersome - including an icon for each item type in place of the "go back" arrow would improve this.
• Presentation generally is wasteful of screen space - the headings (in gold) take up the same space as the data fields whether needed or not.
• The order box at bottom right requires too much mouse travel to use and takes up more space than needed (since many options are unavailable most of the time). Having it instead only appear alongside a selected item with only the valid options would both minimise travel and free up screen space.
• Replace the bars in the Weapons Report (the most useless graphical indicator I have ever come across) with line graphs for damage over distance and accuracy over distance.
• Every component/facility/weapon detail window should include a button linking to previous generations, making it easier to review the benefits gained from research.

Ship design would benefit from special attention:

• Remove the existing component menu (allowing for both ship statistics screens to be displayed instead) and instead have it appear as a floating menu alongside a selected A,I,O space (again minimising mouse travel).
• Add hotkeys for component selection, e.g. E could bring up a listing of available engines with a letter for each item. Assuming there are 26 or fewer possible choices this should work well, but more than 26 could be accommodated with numeric prefixes, 1A..1Z then 2A..2Z, etc.
• Use cursor keys to move around a ship level and changing decks (e.g. Ctrl-Up and Ctrl-Down to go up/down a deck).
• Add a hotkey for jumping to the next available A, O or I section.
• Add a "condensed" display along the bottom just showing the components added and their number (like that in SEIV) making it easier to review total component usage across all decks.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Right now the main issue with the game are the game bugs and thankfully Aaron is hard at work resolving them. Hopefully after the new year, and many if not all of the bugs have been addressed by updates, perhaps then Aaron can begin to address the UI and upgrade/enhance it.

The ship design system is indeed extremely time consuming and impraticle. A much more simplified system must be adopted and implamented.

I suggested a while back that a pre-designated slot system be implamented. This way a player need only click on a component to add it to the design. The game would automatically add that component to a pre-designated slot in the hull. The drag and drop system would still be present and usable, especially if you wanted to move something. But having pre-designated spots for everything would be far more efficient. Armor to the outside, weapons to the out side forward, other components like cargo, supply, and such fill up the center section, with spots in the center for the bridge, crew quarters, and such. Of course make this system completely moddable so players can adapt its use for mods and such.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Excellent idea!

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

The difficulty here is how you deal with items that could be inner or outer hull (or both) depending on design philosophy (shields, supply/ordnance units, religious totems, sensors). Component distribution between decks needs consideration. And this has to be done for every shipset.

Going OT a little, it would be nice to see component placement given more importance - for instance being able to specify weapon facing (which would in turn determine arc of fire - with special mounts, aka "turrets", capable of increasing this) and for Armour/Outer/Inner placement to vary by deck (top and bottom decks should have more A and O slots to account for their top/bottom facing with the middle deck having more I slots).

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I think it is a great idea. For components that can be in multiple locations, priority should be inner to outer, finding the first available space. That way you could design the ship with the most vital components first and ending with least vital components. Sure, you'd still probably have to do some component movement manually, but AT's system would cut out a hellova lot of mouseclicks.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Auto-complete can work well for this purpose.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Can you be more specific? Are you saying that the idea is pointless because we have auto complete, or are you saying that auto complete can be modified for this purpose?

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I am saying that auto-complete puts all the stuff on the design and leave you only with a bit of tweaking to do. It's about an equal click operation as double-clicking on a component and having it add somewhere on the design - especially with the Balance Mod where there is about double the number of design types that make good auto designs.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I disagree Kwok.
Auto complete makes a ship as defined by the AI design instructions. That may be completely different from what I want.
What Atrocities proposed is a completely human design just more efficiently made. I am still convinced that the exact location of a component is rarely relevant for the outcome of a combat therefore to specify the prefered location (inner/outer hull/front/rear/sides) for each component would absolutely be sufficient for most cases IMO.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Thank you CK for giving us a more detailed statement. I however have to agree with Q. While it would be great to use the auto design, it lacks the ability to allow the player to add his own components. Components should be added at a single click.

Also the downward scrolling of the component list just seems impracticle and combersome to use. Having more of the components listed across the entire window from left to right with arrors to move it would be a far better system than the current one.

Hell a Tab window or multiple choice Tabs filled with components would be better. Weapons, Combat Support, Required, Engines, Etc would go a long ways to improve the ship design UI. But that isn't going to happen so here we are.

If we must live with what we have, and the auto-design is it, then I guess having a good easy to use editor for setting up mulitple pre-designs would be the next best thing.

This way players can spend some time setting up their own design for use with the auto-design feature of the game.

But still having pre-specified slots for components would be the better choice overall as Q described above.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Don't get me wrong I wasn't criticizing AT's suggestion and of course it would help - I was just saying that auto complete is sometimes not a bad alternative in the meantime.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

A tab is more-or-less equivalent to the current right-click filter in terms of time. More important is a logical order of components by default!

Moving the mount option to the right side and yes maybe even making it a pop-up instead (I know, I know) might be ok as it would provide space for 5-6 more components.

There are already system functions for spreading out each component that the AI adds, so it's not really too hard to add AT's idea as a double-click functionality.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Why am I always in the minority on these "major issues". Now that I have a good feel of the UI, I have NO complaints. Hell, I liked MOO3's UI (patched, of course). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Ok, this is what we mean when we talk about hostility toward anyone who complains. We were having a calm, rational, objective discussion of issues, and then Hugh chimes in with personal attacks.

How is this justified? Why is this violation of forum rules tolerated?

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif As the minority here you hereby appointed Minority Leader. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Uhuh, I thought MoO3's UI, at least the major parts of it, was ingenius. I still don't like SE V's UI very much though. SE IV's was just about perfect.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

OT: Moo3 had a lot of unutilized protential. It was a game that should have been a hell of a lot better than it turned out to be. To "me" the UI had fuzzy fonts, was combersome to use, and lacked intuitiviness. It was more frustrating than useful and that seriously hurt the game IMHO.

I really didn't play much of Moo3 after about a week. While many have grown to love the game and some have even improved it, I haven't played it in years. I really wish I could have gotten to play this game, but honestly I just could not get into it.

I look back on Moo3 with sincere regret. Here was a game that I wanted, that I waited for, and that I shelled out $60.00 buck for. I was really angry at the time both at the developers, and at the publishers. (But more so at the developers.)

I think many game developers learned a very valuable lesson from the whole moo3 incident. (Well not VUG, Tribes Vengence was a solid single player game but had astonishingly cheat riddled multiplayer coupled with insanely bad game play design, two things which were key elements to the games failure.)

Aaron, I am sure, took notice of what happened with MOO3 and has done everything he can do to develope a solid game. SE V, even with its current flaws, is a surprisingly damn good game right out of the box and patched to current version.

As a one man development team, he himself, and Otus, his games have consitantly been addictive time consuming life destroyers.

While I would have gladdly paid another $40.00 or more for a FIXED version of MOO3, or waited another year for it to be released as the game it should have been, I can understand the need to get money coming in after so many years of development.

BOT:

With some work the UI in SE V can be made very functional and intuative. I am sure that as time passes many things will happen with the UI. I look forward to the time that I can start a game of SE V and instinctively use the UI without becoming frustrated and angry. I want to look back at these days and feel good about how the game has improved over time.

I figure that after most of the bugs have been delt with, Aaron will begin to work on the UI. So having a good idea of the improvements that are needed wouldn't hurt their chances of becoming part of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So the more we talk about it, the better the chance that we will come up with some good ideas.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Continued OT: Latest patch, lots of 'data patches'( i.e. edited game executable to fix alot of bugs) and a mod or two, then MoO3 really shines. Not only that, but it's a *completely unique* game, so different that it can't even be compared to MoO2 nor Space Empires. Which I like more is difficult to say; just like SE5, MoO3 has alot of issues still, but it was completely worth the 50$'ish I paid for it, eventually. I usually find myself doing about one game a year; my games usually stretch out to like turn 800++. In short, though, it's the only real epic and 'realistic' 4X.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

^^^
Reason #1 why I very rarely post in this forum anymore.

This, friends, is what I meant when I said before that I sense a growing hostility here toward those of us who politely voice complaints.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

One of the improvements to the UI that I would like to see is moveable windows that are also resizable. I currently have a dual monitor setup and would love to be able to move some of the windows to my secondary screen. Imagine being able to take quadrant map, enlarging it and then moving it off the system window to your other monitor and then clicking on the systems' icons and being able to see what's in that system. Another advantage would be being able to open up a window that you use alot, resize it to what you want and then leave it open all the time. The game would also remember the size and position in case you closed and then reopened the window. This UI would favor those of us that have dual or widescreen monitors, but if every time you opened a window it created a tab on the task bar then you could open up as many window as you want, leave them open and then just single click on a windows tab to make it the active window and bring it to the front. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

ok first some OT BS:


Who did I personally attack? What forum rule did I violate? Lastly I don't have to justify anything because it was meant as a crude joke to make a very valid point.... Seriously get a sense of humor people - Removed by Moderator - just because some forum trolls go blasting off on certain people or topics doesn't mean you have to lose all sense of humor, even if I was a bit crude, and maintain some sort of "Masterpiece Forum" stuck up ettiquet. For someone who "rampantly uses asterisks" I thought at least someone would get it and chuckle....


Now on topic, I say again, there is no reason short of being handicapped or having your "off" hand occupied by some other task such as self gratification or gorging onself while sedentary(some apparently on tea, scones or biscits instead of cheese powder coated, fried nummies), that you shouldn't play or work with both hands on a PC. Take Blender, people who first see it tend to call it one of the most bizar or "cumbersome" UIs ever, unabe to find menus or buttons for stuff unlike milkshape, anim8or, or others, till they get to know that you actually have to use both hands to use it well. Every manual and tutorial starts with "have one hand on the mouse the other on the keyboard", and it works. Stuff gets done faster in blender because of it's keyboard oriented interface. you can get to the stuff with the mouse if you have to, but the keyboard is faster. Once I learned this I started memorizing hotkeys for Civ2, Alpha Centauri, Guild Wars, SEIV, SE3, sim city, and now SEV, even FPS and flight sims. I'm telling you, stuff gets done faster with less movement of the wrists, less wear on the mouse, I don't have to hunt for icons buried in menus, info is imidiate and I can dismiss it imediately it's great. All because I'm willing to lift my left arm and reach about 2 feet in front of me. A printed list of the keys is not hard to come by and if you lack that, open the game windowed and put the list in the background. If you are capable, and don't want to lift your off arm out, then there's no excuse, you're whatever I described above. Stuborn, lazy, a "wanker" or some combo of both. I'm sorry if that's true, but it is, and if you took the good natured, if a little crude, jibe a little rough so be it, no apologies given. Play with both hands, always.

Also, atrocities I'm not sure what info the SEIV interface gave at a glance that wasn't already in a menu that the SEV doesn't, can you elaborate(IIRC they still show what facilities exist on the planets in the main system display right)? I recall the map SEIV being a bit bigger, clearer, sometimes I can't see if there are warps on an unexplored system in SEV's if I don't expand it, and I'm not sure how boarders or colors get marked but otherwise it's still functional.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

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Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

OK, let's address the concept that I am somehow reluctant to use both hands.

I spent most of 6 years playing FPS games, (that's First-Person Shooters, to those who aren't familiar with the term)

TF (Team Fortress) was my game-type of choice. TF is a series of mods for various engines. Essentially, the TF concept is a class-based variant of CTF (Capture the Flag), involving 9 classes (Soldier, Demoman, Heavy Weapons Guy, Scout, Spy, Flametrooper, Medic, Engineer, and Sniper). I led and co-led several different clans. I played in two different leagues, albeit not at the same time.

League play involved 2-4 hours of practice 3 nights a week, and then a game on Sunday (usually).

I list all this only to give you some idea of the dedication and seriousness I brought to this pursuit, and also the hours committed.

Nobody ever, ever, ever played any FPS game competitively without using both hands. It can't be done. Period, end of sentence, end of paragraph.

I spent years using both hands furiously, to the point where I wrapped my left wrist with an Ace bandage before playing, simply to limit range of motion, and avoid RMI injuries.

There were weeks when I spent 25-30 hours or more playing TF. With both hands.

Am I making my point here? Your "use both hands" routine is so much hogwash.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

I use both hands all the time in ALL of my games.

I learned to use the Key Board by playing Freespace.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Ok, obviously you are willing to use the keyboard if you like the game enough, then why all the reluctance from everyone in using the keyboard for space empires(which requires MUCH less reflexes and stress then a FPS)? It seems that you agree with me, I'm basically saying the hotkey commands make the UI much smoother, and there's no good reason not to use them in this sort of game where there's a large amount of commands to execute you need at least 3 mouse strokes and clicks as opposed to 1 key command. You seem to be saying the keyboard is essential too, where's our conflict?

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Better hotkeys would go a long way to encouraging that...

The commands that are most often used need the first choice of hotkey.
O for load? Psh. I don't even know what the hotkey for drop is... certainly not D though.

BTW, does anybody know where the default hotkeys are defined so that I can fix them?

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Personally, the only thing I really dislike about the UI is that the screen does not center on your current selection when using the Next/Previous ship buttons. I have lost count of how many times I have sent a ship way off course because I thought a different ship was selected.

(OT)
Heyya Possum, I'm an old TFer myself (from qwtf days). Went by [FC]Lee Harvey Oswald back then, was a founding member of Fatal Cure, and Clan Doomsday. I do indeed miss those days, before cheats became such a common thing in online gaming. Now I am considering if I want to try TF2 when it finally comes out.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

'K' for drop. The only way I remember it is Drop (K) is below Pick up (O) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
The hot key that gets me, is 'Move ship to Way point n'. Putting this back to SE IV method would save me a lot of trouble.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

What would be really cool would be a key board over lay or cheat sheet that listed all of the hot keys.

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Isn’t there a keyboard being developed that will be able to do just that?

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

The Optimus Keyboard All the keys are programmable, it uses OLED tech to change what the keys themselves display. Can't wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Whats so bad about the UI????
 

Baron Grazic said:
'K' for drop. The only way I remember it is Drop (K) is below Pick up (O) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So QWERTY-centric; I feel disenfranchised! My o and k keys are 3 apart!

Putting this back to SE IV method would save me a lot of trouble.

Easier done than said. Just go into the Controls configuration in the main menu.