Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Like the thread title says, I'm attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05

Having played a big single player game recently that gave me plenty of opportunity to observe the AI in (in)action, I have a pretty good idea of what they are not doing. Sadly I have something very much like zero modding experience, so it's not so easy for me to see how to fix them. Still, I've started tinkering nonetheless.

As far as I can tell, the changes in the tech tree from Proportion 2.X to 3.X have cut many AIs off from their traditional research paths, so they are reaching a certain point in tech development and then making no further progress. Simply bridging the necessary gaps in the _AI_Research files ought to allow them to build all the ships they ordinarily would.

A more advanced project would be to introduce them to some of the mod's new technologies, but baby steps, baby steps.

Anyway, just to dip my toes into the water, I've decided to try to give the Terrans back their fighters: In my solo game I observed the Terrans, (who started in my home system) for many hundreds of turns before they declared me MEE and I took their homeworld. In all that time they never built a single fighter, which is the Terran trademark tech. I think this is probably down to them having no instructions to research the fighter powerplant or fighter propulsion areas.

With all this in mind I've made some changes to Terran_AI_Research, but haven't playtested them myself yet, and probably won't get an opportunity to do so for a while, so I've no idea if it works.

The 'improved' Terran_AI_Reasearch file is attached, I'd appreciate any and all feedback based on either looking at the file or trying it out in an actual game. Your comments would be more than welcome.

Note that my objective at this point is simply to get them to build fighters and carriers (although I couldn't help tweaking some other stuff as well). Getting them to do so in a particularly competitive manner is beyond my current remit.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I would change the Percentage to 34 on all tech.

Also start with smaller needed tech and leave the larger stuff for later. I focused on weapons, basic technology, engines, and needed component tech first then moved onto larger less important technology. Also consider breaking it up a bit. Instead of having them research to level 10, have them research to level 2 then put other entries in for Level 4, 8, and then 10.

I went one step further and gave the AI its own AI research boost in the racial traits to help it "understand" research better. (Cheat).

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Thanks AT, good advice, I will apply it to the later techs.

The colonizer techs are a special case, since you have to rush-research them for the first ten turns of a Proportions305 game - without them you can't colonise, and each level takes only a few hundred research points.

Nice idea with the research boost, but that would involve changing the data folder. I'm just working on the AI files for now. However with the massive tech tree and huge research costs in this mod any sort of research boost is good. Ideally I'd like to get the AIs building city facilities (which generate research in addition to other things) and dedicated research centres to help them along the research path.

Does the AI ever scrap facilities? That would be very helpful, if I could somehow convince it optimise it's homeworlds a little.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Yes, the Proportions 3.x AI needs to know about the new tech areas. I think it can do the new colonizers, but not many other of the new techs.

Fighters won't get built due to none of the AI's knowing about the new Fighter tech area(s). The AI would probably be best off researching far enough that fighters will be somewhat effective before researching those, to avoid producing a lot of fighters that are about as combat effective as 20th Century US Space Shuttles (i.e. hardly at all).

The fighter unit design would also want to be tweaked a little to get them to design the new fighters with the right components.

I think I'd look at getting the ship construction working right first, because it will be more rewarding and I mean to re-vamp fighters a bit for 3.0.7. Which reminds me I should post 3.0.6 some time... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I'm looking forward to "some time". [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/PointUp.gif[/img]

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

And the one's that play this mod (like me)
are looking forward to the update http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

If only I had some time to help...
But after birth of my second kid (girl this time) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I have none...

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Congrats on the child. Go Pappa!

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Congrats Oleg.

Pvk I'll do you a deal: You release Proportions 3.0.6, and I'll release version 1.30 of the Proportional Response Pack and 1.40 of the Neostandard expansion pack that I've been sitting on for almost a year. They include the Cue Cappan infantryman Sgt Squiddie (leaked to these forums some time ago), a pair of Terran starliners and more besides.

*dogscoff opens up PSP to try to quickly knock out a few more images.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Sounds good, Dogscoff! Do you want to keep the Proportional Response pack as a seperate pack, or shall we just (or also) include it in versions going forward?

I have 3.0.6 itself ready, I think, though I haven't really playtested the new Q-ships to make sure they work properly. It doesn't have a whole lot in it besides those and a few minor fixes, because I wanted to offer a version that wouldn't affect balance before making the next balance-tweak version. I just haven't posted it because of an avalanche of higher-priority things I've needed to do or respond to, and wanted to be sure it worked, and updating the web site is a chore. I think I'll just post 3.0.6 here first (tonight if I remember) as a preview and hope to get some free playtesting, and then if it passes, put it on the web site.

BTW, the next balance-tweak version should be 3.0.7, in which I plan to un-nerf fighters (especially at higher tech levels), semi-nerf weapon platforms so they aren't so ultra-accurate and cost-effective, and probably tweak the mount balance a bit too.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

I'll playtest it for you and see if it needs fixing, i am still playing other mods and my sister asked me if I play with no mods and I said (YA RIGHT) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Entirely up to you. You're welcome to include it if you want. However, even if you do I probably ought to keep it available as a seperate entity because there will be some people who want to download the images for use in other mods. I can email the files over to you today if you want them.

Oh, and if my Terran_AI is any good to you you're welcome to that as well, obviously. I haven't playtested it, but *in theory* it ought to be a little better than the default 3.05 AI. Although if fighters really are that badly nerfed, they may be better off without them.

I've also got a set of AI files that (ought to) allow neutrals to build colonisers once more. Interested?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Wow, it's been a long time since the last time I posted a Proportions update! I've been way too busy...

Ok, there is a beta version of 3.0.6 posted here:
http://www.latibulum.com/pvk/proport...3.0.6.beta.zip

The Q-ships should be tested in a game with two human-controlled players. Using High Starting Tech and a very small map would be easiest. The effect should be that if player A builds a regular transport and a Q-ship of the same size, another human player should have no way at all to tell that the Q-ship is not a regular transport, until/unless he scans or encounters that ship class.

The probes should just be lame drones available on turn 1 even in a Low Starting Tech game.

Thanks for the offer of testing, ironmanbc!

Dogscoff:

* To avoid making each version of the mod large with the same graphics in each version, I guess I'll continue as I have and not include the whole prop response pack in the mod, but I would like to include the neutral/default/generic images from the response pack, so it helps shipsets that lack all the unit types used in Proportions. So if you could let me know if there are any new ones of those not in 3.0.6 yet, that'd be great. I.e., in Pictures/RaceGeneric I now have Barge, Infantry, LargeStarliner, ResourceShip, ResourceStation, Starliner, TroopHuge, and WorldShip.

* AI is probably better off not trying to use fighters until 3.0.7 I think.

* Colonizing Neutral AI sounds good though. Would you email it to me?

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Oh, I should post the changes in this version:

Changes Log:
============

Version 3.0.6:

--------------
New Additions:
--------------
* Added a new tech area for Q-Ships, which appear to be transports or starliners, but can be nearly fully-equipped warships, though they still maneuver like transports.
* Added probes, which are small low-tech drones, because any space-faring nation should be able to deploy simple robot spacecraft. They are inferior to drones, so one may wish to research Drones and not Probes, so they have their own tech area which requires Computers at level 1.
-----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Reduced crew and life support requirements for Large Transports from 3 to 2.
* Reduced mineral cost of regular Auxiliary Control from 500 to 100.
------
Fixes:
------
* Corrected supply use for Anti - Proton Beam X.
* Corrected (hopefully no-effect...) double "number or tech req" line in Anti - Proton Beam XI.
* Added double-tech-req entries to Point - Defense Cannons IV and V, to be consistent with earlier PD Cannons. (Note: This is an attempt to convince the AI to prefer these on ship designs.)
* Corrected categorization of Anti-Matter Reactor tech area as Applied Science. (7)
* One can no longer upgrade to Space Port + Supply Depot. This was happening to Resupply Bases, removing their benefits and sometimes to no good effect (such as when there was a Space Port City on the planet). (7)
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Corrected typo in crew quarters description.

((7) Thanks to Edward Kolis for reporting this!)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

PvK did you get my email?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Yes I got one (at both accounts). Did you get my reply?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Any news on this?

I tried 2.9.1 or something (the version recommended for SP play) and found the aI to be pretty poor ... would be glad to help, though I don't think I would be able to do much ...

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Its hard to want to work on a mod for a game that no longer is really being valued by the players. Its like going to a party that no one shows up to any more.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Oh, there are a few players still enjoying it. I'm just swamped, and have other projects. Also with 3.0 I was really trying to make the multi-player game more fun, since that's what interests me most (because the SE4 AI can only get so smart without "cheating"), and so I made some things that are interesting for a micro-managing human player, but would be hard to make a competetive AI for.

Arralen, there is also AIC (AI Campaigns) mod, which was based on a 2.x version of Proportions but with major changes and adjustments including heavy AI "cheats" which can be quite challenging and interesting to play against.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Heavy AI cheats do not make up for very poor ship design, eg. .
And I think it should be possible to fix at least the "very", if not the "poor" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

The problem with getting the AI to design ships is that the AI will use more than one needed component or won't use the components that are being required.

The AI will always use the largest ship in the list, usually the top one, as it gains access to that design size.

Also the AI use of components will differ dramatically over the course of low to high tech game.

It is as if the AI wants to be stupid and revels in it.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Yep.

Don't get me wrong, AIC is a good mod, but there may be areas that you could dislike (well, I do). E.g you research for mines and then you notice that it was (almost) useless because the AI ship hulls have the ability to sweep them. Or you spend millions of RPs for the talisman and then you notice that the human type of the RT is only a better attack sensor.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Even the Proportions 2.x AI can at least deploy ships of multiple sizes, and usually do a reasonable job of designing them and so on. The Xi Chung is the AI I tweaked the most in Proportions 2.x. The AI's Oleg made for 2.x are also good (search for "Oleg's AI pack adds three new empires (Size: 1.6 MB)." on my Proportions web page, and JLS also did a good job tweaking the Abbidon (and maybe some others). However, because they don't cheat, and I think also because Proportions requires more thinking and provides more opportunities to do creative and tricky things (as well as some more opportunities to get messed up, etc.), the AI will always be weaker than an experienced human player, and a human will need to limit himself and/or give the AI some kind of advantages in order to have a challenging game.

If I had the time and this was the project I was most interested in, then I would spend the time to mod a decent AI and make some interesting AI cheat options. I know it can be done.

The best way I found was to start a game with the AI race I was tweaking, and watch what it did each turn, then make adjustments to the research, build, design and strategy files to make the AI do things, re-load with the AI and make sure they did them, then look for more things to tweak, etc. I actually found it very fun to do (it's like playing the game using the AI files as your UI) and rewarding once it was done, but it also took forever and showed many weaknesses and frustrating issues with the AI. For that much time investment, I have other projects I'd rather devote the time to.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

...
The requested URL /pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip was not found on this server.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I'm still VERY much into the game, and will be into SEIV for quite some time to come.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Sorry Arralen! It seems to have vanished during a web site update. I'm hunting for it... if I don't find it, I'll reassemble it.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I have played a bit of Proportions Pvk and now that have Se5 I'm playing it

the only thing that is really wrong with it is this

Name := Basic Life Support
Description := Mechanical means to generate a livable atmosphere on a starship. This system is not built for compactness, or to withstand battle damage, but is less difficult to manufacture.
Pic Num := 5
Tonnage Space Taken := 15
Tonnage Structure := 1
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 4
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Contains life support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


and a few other things like the shields in the wrong order in the list but thats ok.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Probes? Which probes?
Started with low tech and medium costs, and probes are nowhere to be seen??
Actually, I can't even see any drone tech at all ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Probes are supposed to be basic drones available from turn 1. Drones are supposed to require research...
I must have broken them before I posted it then. As I wrote, it needed testing... sigh. Thanks Arralen, I'll investigate...

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Thanks ironmanbc. All feedback is helpful. However in these two cases, these are things done to help the AI:

* The extra tech-level requirements are inserted as a hint to the AI that the component is a good version to choose to satisfy a tech level requirement. For the Basic Life Support you list, this is because it's the most efficient version in terms of cost (if not in terms of structure or size). (I think listing the requirement multiple times gets the AI to prefer the component, but I could be wrong or it could have changed due to SE4 patches.)

* The mixing of the order in which shields are listed is also intentional and for the AI's benefit. In this case, it causes the AI to upgrade in the order listed. This corrects the AI bug/stupidity where it will replace all strong standard shield generators with Phased Shield Generator Mark I as soon as it is available, even though this isn't generally the best thing to do.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I see..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I hope there is an se5 ver. that would be cool

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I hope there will be a version 3.07 with fully working AI for SE4 - that would be way cooler .. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Ya, I agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Status update: I looked for the backup with the Oleg AI pack and haven't found it yet (I know I have it on at least one backup though). I did have the actual AI's installed on my main SE4 computer, but before I could extract them into a new version of the pack, my computer suffered some kind of evil breakdown which I haven't had time to analyze and repair.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Just FYI...

I started a single player, 255-system game with the latest version of Proportions and my colonising neutral files installed. I had "not all warp points connected" and as a result found myself in a small disconnected cluster with no other races present. Rush-researched warp-openers (only took me 180-odd turns), introduced myself to the galaxy at large, and found the AI to be doing very nicely, thankyou very much.

~turn 200, the Jraenar are running around with some pretty formidable ripper beam/ basic laser+JP engine ships, the Praetorians have a multi-system empire and several fleets of 30+ warships, and the Texrak have colonised another world in their homesystem. I've yet to encounter anyone else.

Since I've been concentrating on non-military research, my best (only) warships have just Ion engine III and meson blaster II... gonna be an interesting game. I could win it easily by holing up and resaearching/building at leisure, but I think for a challenge I will go for a more aggressive approach and see if ai can grab and hold some worlds from the Jraenar, while encouraging the Praetorian to declare on me=-)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Hmm, interesting! I guess it's not as bad off as some of us might have thought. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Ok, I found a backup and restored the file.

I also got my SE4 computer's hard drive online on another computer and scanned it for disk problems and for viruses, and found no problems... so why it refuses to boot Win98SE on the other box is still a mystery.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

If anyone was wondering what happened to me two words GUILD WARS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I just looked in to see if ver. 3.07 was done yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Not finished yet. The PBW Proportions games have restarted with new players, so I've been organizing that, and it shows there's an audience for 3.07, so I am going to do it.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Count me in as an interested player. Can't do the PBW version, though, but I can wait for the 3.07 version.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Thanks Greg!

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Is 3.07 ready?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

No it's not. I completed the mega project that had been monopolizing my time, and found all kinds of other stuff I wanted to do. I think I'm about ready to go get 3.07 ready for release, though.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

ah the wife got ya butt off the computer and doing suff around the house. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

LOL! Thankfully not!

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Dear PvK,
I'm a big fan of your Proportions mod in all formats (including AICampaign and Proportions for SE5 for which I'm waiting for the upgrade for 1.71). Just wondering if your going to add any new techs like single shot missiles, fighter missiles, zero-G troops (micro-fighters), missile PD and seeking PD. Also I'd really like to see FQM mod patched in. Is there any way of doing this without changing the mod significantly?

Regardless in my current game the (no warp points) the drushocka have been doing well, whereas the piundon seem to be stalled in colonization.

big fan keep up the good work.

ggm

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

PvK is not the person that is making the SE5 ver. of Proportions (we ARE waiting for ver. 3.07+ from him through) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

we can keep BUGGING him for an update for 3.07+ and SOMEDAY http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif he will give it to us

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

What Mac said is accurate. Also, gosho, thanks very much for the feedback and interest. I do have _plans_ to add new techs to Proportions for SE IV, but which and when any of those plans will materialize in tested form remains the unforeseen future.

Ideas to add stuff did include single-shot missiles, fighter missiles and more seeker and PD variations. They didn't include zero-G troops though that's an interesting idea. Next plans include rebalancing the mounts and weapon platforms and fighters, reworking the sensor/cloaking techs, making smaller ships more viable and less expensive by applying scale mounts to more components (especially bridge/life support/crew), and more interesting mine warfare developments. Oh, and redoing the whole espionage system so it's much more useful and balanced but about actual espionage rather than sabotage and subversion. Heaps of ideas... but whether I'll do them or not and when, I don't know.

FQM can be combined with SE4 Proportions mod though there are effects. For example, Fyron combined them for a Proportions 2.x PBEM game, with the result of creating nearly-unlimited resources from mining. I don't have specific steps for combining them but it's not too tricky. The Proportions quadrant elements do get lost, of course, but they aren't essential.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

You just replace 2 or 3 txt files:

quadrants.txt
systems.txt
planets.txt(?)

In my setup, I have taken those files from the AICampaign mod which includes FQM.