Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

My favorite nation right now is Vanheim. This is because of their stealthy playing style, coupled with an air magic focus and the option of minor blood and sacrifices. However, I always feel guilty playing them because they seem to have so much more power and versatility than any other nation I've played so far. I can't find any weaknesses. I can't find any chinks in the Vanheim armor.

Could they possibly be nerfed some time? Please? I really like them, but I don't want an easy game, nor do I want to upset people in MP by choosing them. My suggestion would personally be to make Vans or Valyries non-sacred in this Age (probably Vans).

Just what was on my mind today.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I don't think they should be nerfed. For one thing, I don't find them personally that appealing to play, which says to me that while they may be powerful, they're not for everybody. If you want more of a challenge in single player just crank up the difficulty factor and add more nations until you start to sweat. As for multiplayer games, if a good nation causes people to complain, then they probably aren't very good players anyway, since the game allows for enough strategy with any nation that one nation that's a little stronger in some areas than another isn't going to break a multiplayer game. I've played a lot of different nations and they all balance out very nicely, considering there's 50 of them and 3 ages to manage. It's just how they balance, not whether or not. Some nations just require less popular strategies to be at their utmost degree of competitiveness. If the nations can be balanced better, objectively, not subjectively, then I'm all for it, but I don't think Vanheim needs to be nerfed and you'd be more than welcome to play it against me if I ever get around to doing a lot of multi-playing.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

If they have glory ability they should have their armor lessended imho because it's bad enough you have a chance of hitting the wrong guy.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Oh, no, someone could win!

There are plenty of workable strategies that do quite well against vanheim - I suggest trying a really archer-heavy position; or Abyssia or Jotunheim, both of which have sacred units that beat vanheimers like red-headed nordic stepchildren, glamour or no glamour (with an earth blessing and nature blessing, the vanheim units kill themselves faster than they kill Burning Ones with stabbing.)

You can put void eyes on thugs and send them in to dispel the illusions. You can cast big area of effect spells, against which the illusions provide no defense. Once you've done that, vanheim has mediocre magic (the dwarves are nice), and it has dudes, with axes! This is me, trembling in terror.

Now, occasionally you are going to get rushed and eliminated. You can reduce the viability of rush strategies by playing on larger maps. If you want to play a game without rush strategies - forbid the rush positions. I don't want to play in such games - sometimes you just lose. Them's the breaks. But in any case, if you're going to nerf Vanheim so it isn't viable as a rush position (and by viable, I mean you have a significant chance of taking your first opponent and eliminating him,) it might as well not even be in the game.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I usually put the void eyes on my thugs too, I just don't feel like adapting my entire army to the vans when I could just change the strategy on one guy.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Archer-heavy does not cut the mustard against Vanheim. Between armour, shields, and the fact that half the arrows hit holograms, archers aren't cost-effective at all. Big AOE spells (not 1 hex ones) are not available for some time and most nations can't conventiently cast them anyway. 75% or so of nation designs will have no good counter to Vanheim for 20-30 turns or so and many for considerably longer than that. And that's *without* double-bless strategies. With double bless - (shudder)

And what's wrong with nerfing Vanheim? God knows it doesn't need to be uber in the first few years to be playable. It has good magic, thuggable leaders (a rarity), and even if moderately nerfed those units would be excellent.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Curt, not going to comletely dismiss your point but list the nations you find have the most trouble against van(without being 100% tailored for them) and lets see if some people cant work out a way to make them work(to help the community)

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm sorry but that's a silly request. Do you seriously want us to type out a list of all the nations in the game save one or two?

If you need a specific scenario to get the conversation rolling, try telling me how to beat a F9/W9 Van rush with EA Ctis. That's a real scenario from a game I'm in.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I can give you a list...

EVERY nation except possibly:

Mictlan
Neifelheim
Helheim
Abysia

These nations are only exceptions if they are tailored to fight Vanheim.

NickW, It is unlikely you can beat such a rush with any nation. People will tell you to mass archers and use AE spells, but when Vanheim rushes, they have all the same tools that you have, with the bonus of being able to mass one of the most superior units in the game.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

They will? How odd. Flaming arrows can get past shield + protection, shortbows without that... no way.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That is the prescribed formula I have seen to counter Vanheim every single time someone has complained about it.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I can vouch for him there. (Though many times they also suggest Flaming Arrows)

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Aye, when applicable, flaming arrows are usually suggested.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Skell spam is, I think, your only hope for survival. But there are a number of problems with that strategy.

1) It needs enc-3
2) you need something to keep the vans off of you for a couple a castings or 2 ( IIRC vans have something like move 39 when W9 blessed ).
3) even when it goes right I'm not 100% sure what the ratio is of Vans to sauramancers to make it work. I would guess something like 1 sauramancer for every 4 vans or something like that but I have not tested.

Of course his counter would be to make a good number of Holy-Preists and then you are doomed. No hope.

And that is only talking about set-piece battles. Due to glamour he can raid you like crazy and there is nothing you can do about it.

The only nations which can deal with Van are:

1) abysia ( all ages ), since flame weapons do not affect their troops and Vans without flaming weapons are not that scary.
2) Niefelheim since the cold aura kills the vans.
3) as we saw in a post recently: Caelum since Caelum raiding is very hard to stop.
4) *maybe* ermor -- although this is more conjecture than fact.
5) maybe C'tis Miasma -- no one likes attacking Miasma with expensive troops.

Other than those nations you are SOL if you are near Vanheim ( have not tried Age of Vanir they seem somewhat less powerful ).

As for Van not breaking the game, they sure break it for the 1 or two empires that start next to them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

^^^ Totally agree, if your next to an aggressive Vanheim player in a multiplayer game, your pretty much SOL.

Later on in the game, players can team up against vanheim, but early in the game, no one wants to be the guy unfortunate enough to be their neighbor.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Isn't Helheim essentially vanheim with better bless troops?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

For EA ctis (though ive never been successful with them) i would say skele spam with runners to hit the rear/archers(hopefully getting to mages/commanders) and possibly chariots to disrupt the enemy.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I tried out the skelly spam. The results were not encouraging for you Nick.

I was setup as follows:
Van had 25 Vans + 1 Prophet.

C'tis had 80 HI + 1 Lizard King to use as "chaff". I then varied the number of sauramancers until C'tis won.

1) At a 1-4 ratio of Sauramancers to Helhirdlings (ie: 6 Sauramancers ) C'tis got smashed. Usually inflicting 2 losses to Van and losing all units in the process.

2) At a 1-3 ratio of Sauramancers to Helhirdlings (ie: 8 Sauramancers ) C'tis got crushed but inflicted more losses. Around 2-5 Helhirdlings got killed per combat.

3) At a 1-2 ratio of Sauramancers to Helhirdlings (ie: 12 Sauramancers ) C'tis wins consistently.

Just for fun I tried one time with a Scorpion King pretender ( with a nice F4 fire shield ) in front of block of HI. I figured that the Vans would get stuck on the Prot-20, fire immune pretender and they would then get swamped. I forgot that the Vans have lightlances ( and 39 AP ). The Scorpion king died on the initial charge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Resource summary ( in the scenario where C'tis wins )

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
C'tis Van
Gold: 3500 1800
Resources: ~1200 300
Castle Turns: 12 1
</pre><hr />

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I think the best way to fight vanheim is to get them taking as many morale checks as possible

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I don't know why people even bother to say they're not overpowered.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Perfectly agreed, van it is so clearly overpowered that I think people doen't want it nerfed because they like win easily with them. I like very much Van thematically, but I don't take it in my mp games because I feel it cheating.

The "north world" nations are so clearly better than the "south world" nations, maybe the home countries of the devs influencies ...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

With early C'tis, you could try using chariots with an order to attack cavalry, trampling vans should be a good way tu hurt them, no ?

Even if you loose, it should cost them more than you. (at least I hope)

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

C'tis also have poison slingers with area effect and 50% poison resistance on thier national troops. Could be worth investigating.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

To add my previous comment.

If they're not overpowered, why do people need to find specific strategies with which you can perhaps if you're lucky be able to deal with them?

I don't remember that anyone needs a specific super-strategy against any other unit, since pretty much everything else has simple counters - due to the fact that pretty much everything else is more or less balanced.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Well, there may be an easy but not so obvious counter to them.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

hmm... u don`t know what are u talking about,
1)it IS some nations that have better rush tactics that van`s
2)u need a specific super-strategy against ANY other nation, if that nation run with exp. player
3)it IS ways to counter Van,yes u can`t stop raiding,but u can raid Van in same time as he raid u, and u can beat his army with your army, aspesially in Dom3 with it money flood...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I still don't see the board littered about "how can I fight against MA-Arco using tactic XY.

Why not? Because it's not a problem. Half the world see Vans are a problem though.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ever thought that maybe the counter is not so obvious as with other nations?
Also, even if something is hard to find, that doesn't automatically mean that when you've found it it will be hard to use.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

If a counter for something is harder to find than it is for all other stuff. It means on the average this one thing is more powerful.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

U still don't see the board littered about "how can I fight against MA-Arco using tactic XY just because Van 2x bless tactic just so nobrainer - everyone can use it even without big exp. playing Dom3...
and so mutch blabeling about Van is abaut newbie player just don`t want think how counter SPESIAL\NOT STANDART tactic, play against it like against typycal, &amp; he is loosing of course...

for 2x bless u pay big price,it`s a tonn of points,u greatly sacrifice something abaut Reserch(draim-2),Numbers(near 5 sacreds per turn) &amp; Income(bad scales)

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Van has a powerful strategy, and there's no denying that it has a powerful strategy which is -
1 - Fast
and
2 - Easy to use.

Likewise Abyssia and the other heims.

If you go up against an experienced Sauromatia player, you'd better have a very strong strategy against Sauromatia, or you're in deep trouble.

Likewise for any other strong nation - if there are nations that don't have this property, then those nations are underpowered, and need to be buffed up somehow. Having only played a fraction of the positions seriously, I'm not sure which those are (people gripe about Oceania a lot.)

Now, the *heims and EA Abyssia have an easier time getting their nasty funk in gear, so they have significant advantages, especially on smaller maps, or with people who don't like to manage complicated strategies or field skirmishers.

But if you nerf them appreciably, they're useless. They don't get an early surge of face-hugging, and their magic is mediocre (except for Niefelheim.)

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

The nation can be modded to suit your needs following the instructions inside the modding manual or you can choose another nation. Plenty of fun nations to play for each era. If all nations were perfectly balanced then it would limit game options for SP gamers.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Please read urself, it's ard to reed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Now to the point : double-bless doesn't mean that bad scales in Dom3, even with a Sleeping F9W9 pretender I can still take Order3.
And even then, what's the problem of "only" recruiting an half-dozen killing machines per turn, as they can chew up pretty anything right from game start ?
I'm currently in a pbem playing MA Vanheim (not event the best, LA is stronger !) with experienced players and I rank first on provinces and income by turn 18 just because I can field easily 8-vans armies overcoming lvl-8 indies.
Very few nations can have such an headstart, especially in MA. Add to this that Vans are recruitable everywhere and you'll see that Vanheim may be not unbeatable but is very strong and rather unbalanced compared to most nations.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

not in EA afaik

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Some nations should be much more powerful for SP games and MP games. The powerful nations are needed in MP because gamers new to Dominions_3 should be allowed to compete playing the strongest nations. And with SP gamers the stronger nations are needed to provide a greater challenge as the game becomes easier and easier.

The NEW Ashen Empire
 

Belatedly coming to this thread:

I agree that Vanheim is MUCH stronger than other nations, particularly in the Early Ages. The glamour ability for most of their units is _incredibly strong_; because of it their armies can, in terms of gold/resources expended, take on enemies that have expended 2-4 times as much. They've taken on the "Ashen Empire Ermor in DOM2" title for me now; that is, I groan and curse when I first see their flag pop up on my border.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Trampling has an attack value of 10, which means that the chariot has to trample the Helhirding about 14 times to kill it as it will only ever be likely to get the failed trample damage of 1.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

What you've basically said is that the game should be seriously imbalanced and we should all be happy about that?

No. Just . . . No.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

itz nat tu ard tu reed as u sink http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
english is my 3rd language, and if you want show your linguistic skills in Russian or Ukrainian, you always wellcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

full positive dominion Pithium can capture about 2-3 neutral provinces in turn - but it`s not unbalanced to all, or it is unbalanced too? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

In my early era MP game, I kicked Vanheim butt with my Arco chariots. That trample does the 1 point to get rid of their glamour and then they are a lot easier to defeat.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes but if I remind correctly how glamour works, the first damage done will remove the mirror image, and then you can start doing real damage by other means (archers, etc ...)

Note that even a lone chariot or two, if it get to attack first, can remove the mirror image from several units in one action, and then let the arrows fly ...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

They still have a defense of 24 with a W9 bless, so all you're doing is changing the to-hit chance for your attack 10 troops to about 1% from about 0.5%. Try it in a test game against yourself and you'll quickly see how hopelessly onesided the battles are.

So what about the plurality of nations that don't even have archers?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Bull****. A newbie player who jumps into a big game with very experienced players will get what's coming and that's probably a sound stomping. At least he'll learn from it. The obvious solution is to play with people more in your own league until you get the hang of it before you try slugging it out against the big boys. My first MP was against a fairly experienced bunch of people and I actually managed to finish fourth out of eight, but that was due to a lot of things, luck as well. My second, I got stomped.

Lamest excuse ever for not tweaking something obviously too strong down a notch or two so that it will only be strong instead of ridiculously strong.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

English isn't my 1st language either, though at least we use Latin alphabet in France. But anyway the idea is to use english, so rather make it legible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Maybe my point was'nt correctly expressed, but it was that Vanheim has a much easier way to expand quickly than most other nations.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

It doesn't take english skill to spell words like "you" right.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ok. All of you who are saying that Van with double bless is easy to take care of. Make a test game with Van getting stompped with Equal, x1.5, and x2 gold/resources.

And do not post Abysia, EA Giants. Good freaking luck.

NB: At x2 you will be able to do it, but good luck with x1.

Add to that all decent van units have glamour so it will be very hard to see them on the map.

I've posted my results for Nick. How about you stop flapping your virtual mouths and back it up with some action? I know none of you will. Not a single one.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Blade wind (52+ attacks, evocation 4, earth3) may be a good way to deal with glamour troops, or maybe chariots - as someone already mentioned. Then you can send in your regular troops.

Make sure that the warriors you send in against the Vans have at least a defense of 13, this because none of the Vans have higher attack than 12. High protection is less good in an economic perspective as all the Vans are pretty strong and wield high damage weapons as broad swords and axes. Buy more agile (high defense troops) instead and try to keep the numbers up. If you have more troops than the Van player you will keep their defense down and make hits (see manual).

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Blade wind is evocation 4, so you won't have it researched till quite a long ways into the game. It also only does 14 damage, so it won't have much effect on troops with a protection of 12. I've seen two castings of blade wind cause a grand total of about 10 damage each when cast against an army of 60 Jotuns.

I suggest trying an equal gold cost in C'Tisian elite warriors to see how this doesn't work very well in practice. Even with two attacks they very rarely ever hit.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

But the blade wind is only there to take care of the mirror images, and they only have 1hp. Or am I misunderstanding something?