Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

I'm totally new to this type of game and apologize for such a basic question. I have carefully read the game guide and can't find the level of detail that all of you probably know and will laugh about.

I attempted the Market Garden Prelim as the US vs. Germany and was utterly unable to move past the first line of 88 Flak 9ss PZ heavy AT guns.

I tried artillery and off-map bombing for several rounds and couldn't knock them out.

They got every tank in the very first shot upon moving into view.

I have no idea how to advance or take them out. Please help.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by baggypants

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Maybe artillery will not knock them toatally out, but it will create suppression, casualties and smoke, so it´s your best bet if the 88s have a clear field of fire. Use a lot of artillery and for several turns, and don´t worry about wasting ammo, these are prime targets for mortars etc. If you haven´t spotted all the guns yet, move infantry on leg forward to spot the rest of them. Then hammer again with artillery and go in slowly, one hex at a time with vehicles, and remember to shoot back, if not knocked out.

Usually AT guns shouldn´t be a problem, after being spotted.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Even a suppression number of 10-20 will make it much harder for the AT-guns to hit your smaller tanks and especially your infantry. If you are going in with larger vehicles alone, then you probably need a bit more suppression.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Hidden AT guns can be a real pain. But once spotted, which it sounds like these are, you should be able to deal with them pretty quickly.

It's harder to knock them out at long ranges (over 20 hexs or 1KM) Try to get some units to use cover to get closer if you need to. Soft units have a better chance of surviving AT hits. Tanks are like ducks in a row for the 88.

What size artillery are you hitting them with? As the US you should have some 155mm (6 inch) on call. Rounds of that size landing in the same or adjoining hex are going to give those AT gunners some serious supression (headaches).

Once supressed you should be able to move tanks into view without the 88s getting the first shot. Once you start to shoot at them they may shoot back, depending on how badly they are supressed. If you have any 30 cal. or as the US perhaps 50 cal. machine guns :-) (HMGs) on vehicles or otherwise, bring them up and hose those AT gunners.

If an 88 shoots at one of your guys, don't return fire with that guy (it will just make the 88 mad ;-) return fire with a different unit so force the 88 to have to re-aim (aquiring a new target means less % chance of a hit, as the gunners get better % with each adjustment when shooting at the same target) Let the unit that was shot at lie low or retreat. Don't be too brave when facing an 88, becuase as you now know they don't usually miss.

Good luck.
Cross

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

A newb myself, but I would like to add a few observations.

My own NatChi AT guns usually have a short lifespan versus the Japanese AI. They die by

1. Firing at the tank, missing, and getting hit by return tank cannon fire. This won't apply to germans. Because of poor accuracy, I often set my AT Guns to shorter than normal expected ranges.

2. Firing , hitting and killing the target after multiple shots. This necessitates placing ammo mules/ trucks near or next to the guns. The enemy sends a fighter/bomber after my guns, and hits the ammo dumps. The explosion takes out my mules and guns. In best case scenarios my guns survive, but run out of ammo very soon.

3. Firing, killing the enemy, and forgetting, or am unable to move my guns. Artillery hits my guns. My men grin and bear it, but start routing after 6 turns or so. Even if they don't rout, after 3 or so turns they are so badly suppressed they can't hit anything. This is assuming the artillery does not hit my ammo dumps.

4. I hate this one. I fire, then the next turn the enemy drops a whole lot of smoke at my guns. There is so much darn smoke I either have to move my guns out of high ground or cover, or move them back. Meanwhile the enemy armour has advanced significantly, but hey I am KMT (very little inf AT). I heard german Panzerfausts are nasty.

Number 4 might be interesting to try if you are time strapped (1 turn of smoke is more than enough), else, try 3 if German counterbattery assets are weak. It takes a while even to rout Natchi gunners, but your arty is doing its job.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Although based on the modern US Army their field manuals are available, and useful references FMs

ATG that cannot see you cannot kill you. So deny them LOS.

The best way to ensure that the ATG cannot see you is to smoke them off or perform a night/fog assault, and/or make your attack through a wood/town/city/large village or a defile.

ATG are vulnerable to infantry fire, sniper fire and long-range MMG fires. Above all, they are vulnerable to shellfire. So your best antidote to ATG is artillery, and the second best is infantry weapons.

If you are assaulting/advancing then your artillery is your primary weapon system. Allow one battery per company, and one section of mortars per rifle company as a minimum.

You will need a minimum of a batallion of arty (18 tubes)for the barrage group and another for the hammer group. More is better - "Quantity has a quality all of its own" (Iosef Stalin) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Smoke off the enemy front line to cover your approach, and drop HE on suspected enemy positions as you approach your break-in point. Blow the poo out of the approach path to your chosen breakthrough point with the barrage arty group while it is not yet time to fire the creeping barrage mission. Against a human defender - consider firing a fake barrage away from the intended point of attack as you approach.

Arrange a walking barrage (use the arty screen to shift fires incrementally to make the creeping barrage) on a small front (say 10-15 hexes) where you will be breaking into the enemy positions, and make the barrage depth about 3-500 metres deep, though with most guns firing on the main barrage line - the deeper guns are to pin troops, and murder any retreaters. Dismount your infantry at your edge of the creeping barrage, apcs to follow and tanks about 5 hexes behind, and then follow close behind the barrage into the enemy position. The infantry deal with any stunned (hopefully)enemy found in the beaten zone, with the tanks there to support. You walk behind the barrage at infantry pace (2 hexes per turn), nice and slow so the barrage has a decent dwell time on each lift. Artillery has a better neutralising effect if applied to the treated area for at least 2-3 turns.

If your breakthrough zone has open flanks (you dont have a village or wood to screen say) - then drop smoke along the edges of your penetration to screen it off.

HE fire will also cause obscuration - so HE bombardment will cause some obscuration of enemy LOS as well as keeping the enemy heads down.

The best place to break through is usually in a wood or large village (or along one edge of same) to get the terrain masking if some smoke gets blown away by the wind leaving you exposed in the open.

Assaulting through close terrain, with your infantry leading will find any enemy ATG etc at close range and confronted with troops the ATG dont like dealing with (grunts) while screening your tanks with both the terrain and the leading grunts.

Another good place too attack through is a narrow valley (defile) as then the ATG outside the defile cannot see to shoot at you. A defile gives you flank security on both sides, so all you have to do is march the barrage through it, and clear the valley sides.

Assign about half your arty to counterbattery of any on-map arty found firing at you, and if some does shoot - assign the whole lot as a "fireblow" on one revealed arty battery position at a time - dont sprinkle it about in penny-packets. That also includes any ATG that reveal themselves - even if you have not got the exact location, smoke off the LOS and drop the hammer on them with the entire CB allocation, that usually discourages them somewhat!. The CB group should contain some long-range offmap arty (with higher than average skill levels) to stay silent in order to fire CB on off-map enemy arty, if you can spare 2 or 3 of these batteries (good use for any core arty that has gained loads of experience in a campaign). These reserved batteries are a good way of holding some ammo in hand in case of shortages later in the battle.

Once you have deployed your troops behind the rolling barrage and have begun marching through the beaten zone, then use the CB bunch to drop fire-blows in the depth of the direction your walking barrage will be going through (essentiallly a second barrage wave preceeding the main one by perhaps 10-15 hexes, perhaps spread to twice the width to pre-prepare the corridor) or to pound the flanks of your penetration corridor for security or to discourage or disrupt counter-attacks (especially if playing a human). If more arty or ATG appear then pull the CB group off the deep fire mission and mallet these, then return to deep/supporting fires as necessary.

Go for one objective cluster, deal with that, leave a covering force to hold it and then rinse and repeat the process for the remaining clusters. (against a human player probably make some feints with lighter/reserve forces against the others to ensure he keeps forces there rather than drawing them off to deal with the breakthrough).

Naturally - not all your troops will be immediatel behind the barrage. a company of infantry will do as "beaters" with tank support (a comapny perhaps), the rest of the force should be in column behind ready to feed fresh troops as required, guard against flank counter-attacks etc.

MRL - if you have them - are best used on troops moving in the open, so are much better weapons for the defender than the attacker. MRL are a wonderful "assault breaker", and a perfect antidote to the above strategy of the narrow-front insertion behind a barrage, if you are a human defender vs a human attacker trying the above. A few MRL just behind the barrage line should annoy the tight pack of troops there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!.

Naturally as an attacker in such a scenario - any defenders MRL that reveal themselves are a prime target for your CB hammer group. If you are an attacker, then a few MRL can be useful to break up any counter attacks by the defender. However - since refilling them takes time, then they are definately an auxiliary weapon.

MRL are a wonderful counter battery/counter mortar toy for both sides (especially if the enemy is not dug in, or is using ammo trucks or dumps alongside or near the battery position http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif).

As the attacker - use any MRL in your CB group for CB fires and depth fireblows. They are too innacurate to use in the barrage line, as the danger-close zone for these is so big that if you do this you will suffer too many friendly casualties from the inevitable drop-shorts. Also, MRL fire in "burps" as the reloading takes time, and the point of the barrage is continuous fire. If you want to use MRL in the rolling barrage - then fire them in waves, some firing, some retiring to the ammo zone to reload etc, so some fraction of the batery is available to shoot each move.

Only use MRL in close support if your troops are dug in, and the enemy is mingled inside your defensive positions while in the open. Otherwise, never drop MRL within 10 hexes (500m) of friendlies I would say, or 5 hexes if you have an observer with "eyes on" the target hex.

MRL tend to draw CB fires - so move them about.

Your infantry mortars can be added to the barrage (in which case use them in the depth of the beaten zone, as pinners and retreater killers rather than in the main barrage line), or to CB (especially counter-mortar) tasks if long enough range - but in the early stages they ae best used as screening smoke layers. Sections of mortars are useful to annoy any small units of enemy found that dont warrant the full hammer-blow of your CB&strike arty group. If playing a human defender they are useful to fire in "pepper pot" mode sprinkled randomly along any routes you think that he is moving troops up to counter-attack you, or as "murderers" if you think there is a mass rout of enemy infantry - drop them deep behind to chase and harras the retreat further.


MRL are an excellent murder weapon on routers and retreaters - so if you think there is a rout in progress, drop them behind the contact line to execute the runaways, like mortars. They can be quite good as "pepper pot" weapons as well.

Also - firing the on-map mortars while witholding any on-map MRL/Arty for later use may tempt him to reveal his arty positions if he fires CB on them.

If you can - move your on-map arty about to avoid enemy CB fires. If you have access to self-propelled kit, this makes it easier to do.

So - that is the basic tactic for the assault. If you have a ridiculous amount of arty (USSR, BCE USA etc) then you might allow yourself 2 penetration points (or a wider penetration).

The advantage of the creeping barrage method is that you really only have to decide on the right place to attack. As it will be done at walking pace then there is no real need for open terrain. In fact close terrain is better as it lessens the need for smoke shoots. You do not really have to analyse possible enemy placements, since the barrage will be used to "mow the lawn" of any defenders placed ahead of your attack, and the screening terrain and/or smoke will blind the remainder. No need for any recce either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif! - use any light recce to watch for counterattacks etc from an overwatch position.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

good in-depth guide. and it can be applied to all nations.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Thanks for all of the help. Great tips. Now it's time to apply them in my next battle.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Yes, the German 88 AT guns are deadly. I find MMG infantry squads the best for taking out AT guns because their range is still pretty good and you can get them close enough to open up before being spotted. 88's are particularly vulnerable to this because they are a larger size target.

In general there is a mind set I forced myself in to once I got more experienced playing this game. At first I was having unacceptably high tank losses because I liked using them. They are fast and cool! Now my mind set is to use infantry to minimize tank losses rather than using tanks to minimize "overall casualties". It's not pleasant to think about what this would mean in real life but consider in game terms that the points value for a single tank is approximately equivalent to an entire platoon of infantry. Also consider that an infantry section can be hit 6 times or so while a hit on a tank usually means the whole thing is toast.

I always liked the following quote which I understand was actually written Soviet military doctrine: "The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

I think there is a lot of wisdom in this. I believe infantry rule the battlefield, as long as they have the right support.

The tank is a support weapon. Like all support weapons they have a limited usefulness and have vulnerabilities. They don't have the versatility of infantry, they can't hold ground or take and defend a position as effectively as troops. (like hold and defend a wood or village)

The way I see it, the tanks role, even in a big tank battle, is ultimately to support the infantry who are the ones who most effectively defend terrain.

I think battles are won when you are able to use each weapon/unit according to its strength, especially when you are able to exploit the weakness of each unit type of your opponent.

That's why I much prefer SPWW2 over other versions, the infantry in this game are far more realistically modelled.


Cross

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

AT guns in this game should have a life expectancy right up there with gazelles at a lion convention. smoke 'em and shell 'em. i never buy them against a human player because they are fragile, pricey (compare the cost of ATG+truck vs. a similarly armed tank) and relatively immobile. they get off shots for one, maybe two turns and are history. [loading units can't move far especially in cover/rough and loaded ATGs are way vulnerable to arty.] and they can't move AND shoot! since the advent of "move penalty to load" (a good thing btw) their value has declined even more. i believe infantry AT is a much better buy.

other than another (approrpriately armed and armored) AFV the most effective AT unit in the game is, IMHO, infantry. though this is less true against human opponents than the AI. human opponents typically don't run AFVs into dense cover unsupported so they can be close-assaulted.

the best AT guns are those with no HE ammo as they won't pop off (disclosing their presence) at soft targets. the A/C recon types earn their keep by drawing ATG fire (and yeah, they get crushed) before pricier types get dinged.

beating ATGs basically involves terrain appraisal. 1. don't run AFVs where an ATG would have good LOS at "killing range". 2. look for spots in enemy controlled terrain that offer opportunitites for item 1. stay off the ridgelines! if i have an ATG fire at me more than once (from the same position) i am embarrassed.

avoiding heavy AT is all about proper scouting. scouts do more than find enemy units; they're actually best at finding AT effective-range LOS hexes. i use them in "series" the "1" unit first the "0" second. once the "1" unit gains a good spot it moves on and the "0" unit moves to that hex to observe for indirect fire.

against human opponents move so as to be able to to "see" (LOS) good ATG placement hexes:

1. forward-screened hexes that provide good north/south (flank) shooting
2. hexes that have no LOS to other hexes within small arms range [small arms are ATG killers]
3. hexes that have an ADJACENT concealed hex (good for retreating suppressed crews to or for parking carriers OR for placing ammo trucks, if you use ammo trucks.)

etc.

on many maps there are remarkably few GOOD spots to place heavy ATGs. do the devil's advocate thing, i.e. "where wouldn't i want one to be" and against a human player it's probably there.

against the AI shell the whole area suspected of ATGs because where there is one there will be another (or two).

MGs were formerly more effective in area fire ("z" key) against potential ATG positions but they're still not bad.

when you're in ATG country use "locked" smoke from IDF weapons. [plot the smoke and turn the weapons slot off, "blue"]. the smoke stays plotted, won't fire and is available with minimal delay. don't fire the smoke until you have scouted LOS's first to determine likely/acutal ATG positions.

against a human player once you have a good idea about where the ATG is, pile in the HE and keep it coming. ATGs are very high value targets (and fragile) so they can provide pretty generous "kill points". they can't move easily. if they're capable of unassisted movement any such movement makes them more vulnerable and if loaded on a carrier even MORE vulnerable. against the AI it doesn't matter because the AI doesn't move arty much other than retreating and will never LOAD arty onto a carrier.

when buying arty/indirect don't "overbuy the map". get your money's worth. part of unit cost is range. why buy an on-map gun with a range of 120+ hexes if playing on (e.g.) a 50hx70w map?

to me, the scariest AT pieces (against a human) are [early war] the GB 2 pounder and [mid war] the GB 6 pounder. the GE 88 is vastly overrated (game-wise), not to mention over-priced. it's almost too expensive to expose to fire of any sort. human players spend more time hiding them than shooting them! (I know I did.)

the worst situation is probably heavily wooded terrain. elevation is tough to recognize visually and running the cursor over the map and reading hex heights is tedious. either be thorough or resign yourself to some losses or scout like crazy.

a little trick you can try against a human opponent if you HAVE ATGs. when the opponent fires smoke to screen your ATGs off, let it work. if he has scoped out where you are the HE is coming and you can't do much about that. if he put the smoke in the wrong place, hold fire for a turn or two. he'll pile the HE in on the wrong hex and feel safe in leaving his armor exposed where it is. maybe he'll even move more into the same area. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif oh happy day.

caution, this usually works only once...don't push it.

give this stuff a shot and i think you'll be fine.

best,
vic

sample cost data:

GE 5cm PaK = 38, truck = 12, total = 50
vs.
GE Pz IIIj = 61, plus better mobility (tracked), move & shoot, armor, MGs etc.

my estimate of a reasonable (what i'd be willing to pay) cost for the ATG+truck combination is 15-20, more if you feel the truck has additional value as ancillary transport (i.e. other units).

GE 88mm FlaK 18 (HE/AP 50/20) = 68
Ammo truck (unlimited ammo) = 25

GE 88mm FlaK 36 (HE/AP 20/50) = 109
same weapon (#59) so who buys the 36? one would be lucky to get off 12 shots from either and IF one could move successfully a quick stop to "reload" solves the ammo difference.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

vic: Thanks for explaining about the 88's differences. AT first I was going to tell you the 36 is better, and that I indeed do buy it, because I use the gun in limited ways. Typically I might place it behind a hill or somewhere where it might have a very limited view. Basically what I am looking for is a crack is visibility to where it will engage enemy armor without ever having to go up against more than 2-3 tanks at a time. It's meant to be a difference maker and not a dominaant piece in my army. At least early on, it's survival from battle to battle is the most important thing, as I want a very good crew by the time of the USSR attacks.

Yes, I do give the 88's their own transport, but it's always with support transport instead of that being in the core.

While I have no difficulty with the guns surviving because I limit the opposition against them and can also pull them out at any time, the other side of your quotient has to be taken into account, and that is the number of AP shells and the cost. I have always bought the 36 ones, but I think I will start going with the 18's from now on. The resons are that it creates something of a difficulty early in the game to be buying a 109pt unit in core, but also due to my limited use doctrine I also don't need 50 shots even should they always survive. I would like to caution one consideration however, and though I don't have the game in front of me now, it seemed to me the 36 had some other advantage such as better optics, but I could be wrong.

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

Indeed, Flak 16 has FC 8 and RF 6. Flak 36 has FC 10 and RF 8. There's also a version available of the 36 which has 35 AP rounds and 35 HE rounds. It's availability ends in dec '40. Cost is 94 at exp 70.

Narwan

Re: Strategy for taking out big AT guns
 

That makes the decision more difficult. I think I shade back towards the 36 then, as it will be needed to bring down at least 3-4 T34's or KV's per battle.