Repulsion strategies
 

This thread is meant as a clearing house for advice on how to repulse the various double-bless scared-unit rush strategies, with at least a 40% chance of success. I'm getting sick of all the whining.

It's assumed that these rush strategies know how to repulse eachother (see violence, extreme). I will start by listing the sacred unit rush strategies that exist. Let me know if I missed some. I'll write a brief blurb on how to counter each when I get around to it - but obviously I haven't played every nation so anyone who wants to contribute advice, please do so.

Question - I have conflicting reports on the 9D blessing, and having tried it myself, I can't say for sure how it works either. It seems to do more than 2 pts of damage, though. Anyone know for sure how it actually works?

Type I - EA Abyssia - 9E9N.
The idea is that you have extremely tough (prot 24 when berserk) units with a fire shield. This is my favorite. There is no counter - grab your ankles, *****es.
Well, actually, there are counters.
Counters: Disintegrate, Quagmire, Mind Burn, Banefire. Trampling units if you can get fire immunity on them. Fire immune thugs or supercombatants with armor piercing weapons (surprisingly easy to make for another fire nation.)

Type II - EA Vanheim, EA Helheim, MA Vanheim or LA Vanheim - 9W9X(4-6Z). X can profitably be F or N, E or S is a possibility. Z, which is optional, can be A or B.
This is the most popular and feared. Idea is, you have a very high defense, a decent shield and glamour. In conventional combat, such a baddie is very difficult to defeat.
Counters: Tramplers - set chariot archers to "shoot and fire" at enemy archers, they'll shoot the archers for a bit and then bulldoze through the van to reach the archers.
Cloud spells (fire cloud, sulfur, etc.) Hydras.
You will have to be willing to lose screening troops - but if you can pin the van down long enough to get them poisoned or on fire, the van are so expensive that you can trade militia 5:1 and come out ahead.

Type III - EA Niefelheim, EA Agartha, ME Machaka or ME Agartha - 9N9X. X can profitably be W or F, E or S is a possibility.
The idea here is that you have sacred units with large hit point totals and they regenerate. The Machaka sacreds turn into such units when their riders die, which is going to happen sooner or later you might as well face it.
To counter these you want swarms of units. Swarms of archers, swarms of melle units.
They're big targets, but not numerous, so all of the counters listed to type I still apply, and you don't have to worry about the fire shield.

Type IV - ME Ermor - 9S9W(4-6X), dom 10. X, which is optional, can profitably be A or B.
Idea here is that you have a very high defense rating, you're ethereal, and the first time someone does somehow manage to hit you, it doesn't take.
The best counter to this is archers+flaming arrows. That really ruins my day.
Archery in general is probably your best bet - these shadow girls are numerous, are fragile if you can hit them at all.

Anyone wanna help me fill out the list? LE Ulm, ME Marignon, some of the monkeys, Mictlan can also do good sacred unit rushes, but I don't play those nations myself so I can't provide commentary on how the sacred builds are done (though I've fought against them.)

And yes, please feel free to contribute your own strategic suggestions.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

There's also EA Abysia with D9 and some supplementary path, perhaps N4-9, perhaps Earth, perhaps some Fire or Air. Fire Shield seems to give afflictions as well...

Death Weapons probably gives 2 points random damage. The result could be from -3 (or no damage) to 7 or more. The Afflictions are the real juice of Death blessing; D9 just lets you use it on those pesky Ethereal creatures, or perhaps those heavily armor sacred units.

I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

I joined 7 MP games, I have not played a bless strategy in any of them. In 6 MP games I am powerful, 3 a out and out superpower, only in 1 did I get destroyed by Dr Praetorious EA Abyssia 9E9N bless strategy who attacked me with Sauromatia, who went with a overwhealming horde strategy.

My conclusion bless strategys are seriously overratted...

My starting strategys were:-

3 positions where I am a superpower:-
MA Man - Dragon/9 dominion/good scales.
MA Man - Exactly same.
LA Argatha - Rainbow sage (1 of every magic path), good scales.

3 positions where I am powerful:-
Atlantis - Huge Kraken/good scales.
EA Niefelheim - sneaking wolf/good scales.
LA Caelum - Destroyer of worlds/good scales.

Basically in the long run, good scales is a better strategy than a bless strategy, couple this with high dominion and a powerful early supercombatant for rapid expansion. Bless strategy runs out of steam in the mid/end game and does not encourage you to diversify your forces.

Bless strategys are excellent however for quick games/blitzs but I do not like playing them.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

In theory, D9 would also be a useful counter to SCs, Afflictions can bring down the best of them, and the AN damage makes obscene protection SCs pretty useless. And of course magical attacks overcome "regular" etherality. Which still leaves high defense. For which F9 is superior because IIRC flaming weapons are still considered magical, and the extra attack can come in handy.

As for counters, my best bet would be anything with AOE, to make sure they can't escape it, that they die in large numbers (supposedly they should come in small numbers because they are usually harder to mass then regular units), and because its fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Anything Evocation is usually good, I like the falling clouds of fire and of ice, thunderstrikes can work nicely, and if you can get Astral Fires against the right guys, its a lot of fun (I actually haven't been able to cast Astral Fires by any substantial amount in unmodded Dom3, only with the Sar Elad mod. Then again I haven't really tried)

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

Aren't you getting butchered by a bless-heavy Oceania? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

For the record, there are plenty of strategies to defeat a blessed nation that does not require the use of a bless.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

I agree with ironhawk here, why dont you(Praetorious) also list what nations you find have the most trouble vrs bless's and lets see if we cant come up with a counter that will also work vrs other nations. You also forgot to mention mictlan who has very strong sacreds for their cost.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

The point of this thread is to list such strategies, so why don't you write them down instead of merely informing us of their existence?

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Tripple bless whit good scales. FTW!

-Migaares, Truth God of Oceania.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

DrPraetorious,
When so many people comment on these strategies and so many veteran players play them in blitz games and even large maps with staggering success, it is unfair and insulting to say people are whining.

That being said, this game is so vast there are probably ways to counter them beyond ganging up on the nation in larger multiplayer games and using a counter bless strategy in smaller blitz games.

These threads do good to churn out such strategies that may be able to counter these uber blesses, so it will be interesting to see what people come up with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

My mages with 100+ water gems (good scales) will utterly destroy you...

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

Actually, the poster said that he wanted a bless strategy to repulse a bless strategy. I didnt want to take the thread off-topic, only to point out that the only way to beat a bless is not another bless.

Since you are interested: blesses normally rely on smaller numbers of high power units. The logical counter to this is Astral Magic, which is extremely powerful vs single units. Paralyze comes to mind in particular. Of course Ryleh, by default, will pretty much slaughter any bless strategy. Also, any nation that has H3 mages could Smite the hell out of a blesser - no research needed.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

To be explicit - I want this thread to be about non-bless-rush tactics for fighting bless-rush. I'm sorry if my original post is confusingly worded.

Unfortunately, strong blessers generally have a high MR, and I have not had a lot of success with smite or paralyze against strong bless troops - except when backing up other strong bless troops (as ME ermor, shadow vestels with archtheurgs smiting in the background did quite nasty things to a nature 9/water 9 machaka.)

That said, when all I have are screening troops and archers, I find that lightning bolt is a better bet - it still always hits and no MR to worry about.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

Indeed.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1...vsrlyehue6.jpg

25 Vans F9W9 vs. 25 Illithid Soldiers ( had they been simple Illithids this combat would have been over far quicker -- further in a rush you will not have Illithid soldiers in this quanity they cost far too much resources ) and 115 lobo guards.

Note that rlyeh had a whole bunch of research done which may have skewed the results. This combat is near a tipping point, btw. If I add in a few hundred more gold ( ~ 500 +-) of chaff then rlyeh wins.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

Is it possible to mod how long the Illithid paralysis lasts for? This might make a difference since they were initially balanced when their paralysis was permanent.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

One thing that can stop blessed troops are tough troops with a strong aura, such as Niefel Giants. I have seen a sufficiently dense wall of those freeze Vanheim troops before they can do much damage to the giants.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

Your counter to neifelheim is inadequate due to the aura, as stated above...

I wish I could show you some replays of the past few turns from the dawnstrike game I am playing as jotunheim in... as far as waves of chaff vs few giants...

4 neifelheim giants and 1 1H jarl leading them

They killed about 120 / 150 arcosphale troops, including about 16 chariots, and around 40 of their highest armour troops and a couple lightnign bolt casting mages.

With E9N10 I suffered 0 losses.

Even though he researched quickly and build lotsof his national strong air mages, he lost his capitol in spite of around 10 of them casting lightning bolts, his god also casting away, and some of his mages scripted to summon 3-4 elementals, with about 200 assorted national troops (this was vs about 20 giants)... I suffered fewer than 5 causualties, and those were mainly a few units that had escaped being blessed (my prophet got assassinated, so no sure bless)

It's great to say you are tired of hearing about it, but you can't just talk your way around it... neighbor dude had no chance... when 1 turns worth of my units can slaughter around a year's worth of production value + gold, without a loss, how can you say he has a chance early game... and if you accept super bless is going to gobble a couple nations by midgame, how much better do other nations really fair by midgame once giants or other super blesses have around 3x the income and forts (this is around the time when most nations can access the spells which you claimed would counter blessables)?

Btw, regarding map size questions: Its a large map we are playing on, bigger than 15 provinces per player... I'm not saying I win, and in fact I'll probably get stomped later mid, but as to the issue of balance in the game, one should be concerned with the fact that some (MANY) nations have practically 0 chance of victory if they happen to be closest to certain others.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

I'm really surprised by this result. Seems counter to all my experiences playing and fighting ryleh. But I will freely admit that I havent actually tested it against a full on rush.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

Quietly,

It seems to me that Arco would have had much more success with Sleep rather than Lightning Bolt, and that Chariots and Myrmidons are the worst possible choice of troop for fighting Niefel giants.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

They had plenty of other troops as well, I'm not sure what troops you would have thought would have turned the tide... if they didnt have as large a horde as you'd like, I'm sure they spent their resources on myrms because their gold went to mages... which was a smart move, considering I could have killed hundred(s) more trashy troops, as I had low fatigue and full life after dispatching that 150 or so (with 4 giants...)

As for, the main battle, sleep vs lightning bolt... really it matters little because of the 5 turn scripting limit. I lined all my giants up at the back row, and sat a couple solitary militia at various points in the middle... everyone on hold + attack... in this case they blew off their first 4 rounds of spells as lightning bolt, with 0 jotun militia killed (spell innacuracy vs a single target)... they could have just as easily blown off 4 rounds of sleep with no kills. (mind you sleep is a relatively short range spell)

once you get beyond the 5th round, there is no more choosing sleep or choosing anything... the battle would proceed exactly the way it did... the ai autocasting whatever it did, and arcosphale being slaughtered.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

The spell AI likes to cast Sleep, and 30 range isn't that short. It targets the biggest creatures, so I think some giants would've been put to sleep, after which they would die even to militia.

Barbarians or predatory lizards would be a good choice against the giants, with their higher damage weapons, and since armor doesn't really help.

I can't really say if Arco could've won, just throwing some ideas on how to deal with Niefel giants out there.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

An unlisted bless strategy :

Atlantis LE, W9A8+ (option : W9E9, but +4 protection isn't as efficient as air shield with all the crossbownen in LE), the idea is : the Assartut already have good magic weapons and a correct attack skill, have 16hp, do a lot of dammage, and are cheap (25g, 10res) allowing to take sloth to finance the bless, their only weakness is their protection (12). The water bless give them an honorable 14 defense + the quickness effect, the air bless a 60+% air shield, and they become as good as 3 times more expensive sacred.

This strategy is very efficient on small maps, even if there are many counters (engaging more troops, using AE spells, tramplers...) they are more expensive than Asartuts. Their real weakness is to be capitol only. Being able at best to make only 10 of them a turn makes the scales cost of this strategy prohibitive on big maps.

Re: I have yet to play a bless strategy....
 

I actually prefer an E9A8 blessing for my assartut - that way, when your god wakes up, he provides diversification to LE Atlantis' already powerful magic (you hardly need more water!)

But anyway I don't regard that as a "rush" strategy - you have a good unit for the price, and thus a strong army, but....

As for the piles of crap counter to regenerating giants - it requires tactics that I need to flesh out it more detail, but the idea is not that you all charge the giant at once. You use the craptons of crap as skirmishers, so that the giants have to chase small stacks around the battlefield while they got shot at - and sleep or fireballs or whatever are toosed aboot.

If you try to charge the giants in a mob, yeah, you'll all get killed.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

Resurrect thread:

F9W9(Z4-6) Mictlan, or Lanka where Z can profitably be Nature or Blood.

These two are probably the kings of the bless rush...

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

I still find E9N9 Niefel Giants to be upsetting. In fact they may be the thing I like least about the game. Fighting them is just a miserable experience, and if you don't have tolerable research (for Destruction) I still don't know how you're meant to kill them.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

Would massed tangle vines work? Without quickness wouldnt they may be bogged down forever trying to break the vines each round? Though truthfully I can't think of anything that gets around the hold x5 tactic pointed out above. Unless you knew you were gonna face it going in and told all your mages to hold x5 which is a dodgy proposition at best.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

Why wait for destruction when Armor of Achilles is lower in research and cost and affects the whole square. Yes, it's range is limited but if you have enough mages you may script them properly (and may be set them to retreat after two or three casts). Without armor, Niefel Giants should be killed easily with anything that's immune to cold or strikes fast and painful.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

llama, read the other thread on niefle - but there are a lot of reasonable possible counters to niefle. Bow of botox (especially before a bless) is one of my favorites.

Rain of toads, blight is another. And yeah, I love tanglevince and vine arrows as well Iron.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

I don't think the vast superiority of ubber blesses can be contested at the very beginning of a game. There are maybe some unadequate counters that early on, but what truly balances the blesses is that, ultimately, the ubber blessers are most of the time stuck with lame magic on their gods, as W9 F9 won't do much for you late game, and your so sweet sacreds won't be much more than chaff.

So it's all a question of opportunity costs, as you most of the time won't be able to have your cake and eat it. The real question being : Will I have time to take an overwhelming advantage with my sacreds/ to build up my late game combo ?

PS :all of this chatter is uttered by a Solo Player, those guys are arrogant worms...

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

W9/F9 Jags or Eagles are never obsolete (plus Mictlan has excellent Sacred summons). E9/N9 Niefel Giants, the same. You develop more useful counters, and they develop greater numbers, and better support - it's always an arms race, and a heavy bless nation starts the game with an AK-47, while you come out with a pistol.

Re: Repulsion strategies
 

While the Assartut discussion in here is outdated, they are a very interesting unit. Their weapons lower strength permanently. Wyrm with 3 strength is a pitiful sight...