The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Does it really make sense to use a rainbow pretender for site searching?

I have a 4 across the board pretender and searched 10 provinces in 10 consecutive turns and found 4 sites.

Those 10 turns = 390 research which is the most basic (obvious you can get in to ritual casting and forging too) which seems far more valuable than a handful of sites that will generate a few gems a turn for you.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Well using a 4 all round pretender for searching IS a bad idea imo, use him to research and forge/cast things. A 2 or 3 allround pretender on the otherhand makes a good site-searcher.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

That depends on the site frequency used and the types of provinces you have. Searching farms with the pretender isn't too good, swamps, forests and mountains are a better idea. But I'd rather use him for research and lesser mages burning gems on radar spells like haruspex, augury etc to find sites. If you use a high site frequency, the pretender may be justified going out every now and then but generally that kind of magic stays home at work instead of spending half the time twiddling his thumbs (moving from place to place).

Edi

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

ok, that makes much more sense to me. Thanks!.

So most sites are found at much lower levels of magic?

I have seen posts to that effect. I guess I should look in the manual to see if it has anything about the number of sites that can only be found at x level of magical ability.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Almost all sites are lvl 2 or below.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

If you've got a 2 all-around pretender 1 turn moving and 1 turn searching will (ignoring blood) save you 7x2 = 14 gems, and, assuming you're getting five research from each search caster, 35 research. Said pretender only generates (7x2+3)x2 = 34 research in those two turns. So you're gaining 14 gems and 1 research point for the cost of missing level 3 and 4 sites. Generally speaking, that's a pretty good deal.

Of course you can't really use those gems until you have some research, and researchers are very limited at the start. So it generally makes sense for your rainbow pretender to research for a while - but after you've got good research going he's an efficient searcher.

In general manual searching is more efficient that spell searching. Manual searching spends gold (the cost of the searchers or their replacements in the case of a rainbow) but saves gems. Cost varies with your research cost, but it's usually a better deal than alchemizing. However, it's a LOT more work and not really worth it for most people -although out of habit I use search squads.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Some great info, thanks!

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Not that I am expert, but your 2-3 leveled pretender who is searching in friendly dominion is also more protected, if he has a small army with him, as this will increase his HP which can be a bit dicey earlier in the game.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Hmmm. Perhaps I've missed something, but you CAN'T search ten provinces in ten consecutive turns with the same pretender.

It should be noted that Arcane Probing and Dark Knowledge only require a single point in the relevant magic paths, making them particularly good candidates for remote searches. Even a Lizard Shaman can find you all astral sites this way without items or empowerment, and a Revenant does the same for death.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

aht is far worse then you are right.. I forgot about the move in between searches... so that is a loss of 600+ research. Definitely a major waste especially since I was searching fields and farmlands...

Looking back It was 5 locations over 10 turns...

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

If your pretender has only a few paths, radar spells are ok, but for a true rainbow manual searching is the way to go because you are searching for many different paths with one turn's effort. If you spent the points to get a rainbow mage, you made him for searching, and that's what he should do. Otherwise you should have taken a Great Sage.

Shovah is completely correct about 1-2 level sites being by far the most common, but on the other hand the many of the higher ones are very very good, so it is a tough call on whether to go 2 or 3. If i remember correctly, and if D3 hasn't changed it, and if the map does not have special sites, there are only a handful of 4s, so you it's pretty safe to go 3 and be confident that you aren't missing much.
The question is, how many paths can you afford to take 3 in, and that depends on the nation, the game settings, and the rest of your plan.

I reccommend a Master Lich as as rainbow pretender, especially for a non-death nation- start dominion 3, 20/path, immortal so you don't have to worry about his safety, and useful in other roles later in the game, or early if your plans go awry.

Others play it differently, but i use the radar spells only sparingly in the mid/late game to target "likely" spots- ie provinces that have screwy scales that hint at hidden sites, rough terrain that has no sites after search by my nationals, or conquered territory that i believe has been partially searched by my foe and may be dangerous to search manualy. Also, if i randomly get ahold of a single caster who can use a radar spell in a path that i cannot otherwise do, i will set him to radar searching. For instance, if i'm playing an astral nation without air, my first Harbinger will usually spend most of his life in a lab casting Auspex.

The magic/arms balance has swung heavily in favor of arms between DomII and D3, but gem income is still a decisive factor and finding more sites faster is a huge advantage IF you can survive long enough to do the research to put it into play. For this reason, i consider rainbows to be an excellent strategy, but riskier than the two main alternatives- SC pretender and high bless. If some smart alec with double 9 blessed sacreds or killer Naharraja jumps you on turn 8 you may be screwed, but if your regular forces are good enough that you can defend yourself you will gain an increasing edge as the game goes on.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Tyrant makes a very, very good point about the main drawback of a rainbow pretender, especially in MP is if you get attacked by blessed sacred troops. Without a SC pretender or bless strategy of your own, a attack by blessed sacred troops before turn 20 will defeat you rather easily.

A rainbow pretender with all 1 or 2 paths in magic is probably best used on big maps with few players. As such a strategy needs time to pay off. A rainbow pretender is sacrificing power early in the game, turns 1-20 for more power later in the game.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Well actually if you can get any sort of decent battle-magic with that pretender researching you could do ok, a lightning bolt or mindburn spam for example could do fairly well vrs a few, elite bless troops(and non-elites usually go down quite well to missile fire)

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Depending on the magic site frequency and current actions/distance of your neighbors a rainbow pretender can be quite useful. Searching with a rainbow pretender almost provides the same value as casting Ashaic(sp?) Record which costs 25 astral for one spell. Sometime during midgame it's better to return the rainbow mage to a lab where all future time is spent casting spells, forging items and summoning creatures.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

I like rainbow pretenders. Like others here have already said, they pay off in the long run. They are useful as site searchers, but they can also research, forge items, summon creatures, and cast artillery spells. You will always have a rainbow pretender doing something important.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

If you go for a rainbow mage, don´t put anything in the paths covered by your national mages. It´s usually much cheaper to bring a mage or two along for the sitesearching than to spend the designpoints on raising those paths.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

It's a tough call on what to do with national paths. You will be able to get strong magic in national paths eventually, but unless you can get level 4 nationals your rainbow pretender can cast and search for your national paths better. Since you get bonus gems in your national paths - and generally can best use gems in your national paths - 4 in national paths can have big benefits in the early and midgame. Of course there's also bless benefits. People ignore the small benefits because they seem so wimpy compared to the level 9 blesses, but if your sacreds are worth getting anyway, +2 attack/defense/+afflictions/etc. is a pretty nice boost.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Ermor ashen empire so my early game is fragile already.

I have no idea how to build SCs...

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

One thing to mention about taking level four in the paths you are expecting to search. That can play into a bless plan. If you have decent sacred troops and they have five or six minor bless effects on them, while you are able to search early on and then retire to the lab, it might work out.

If you are thinking of going down this route, look closely at the special site frequency in the game set up. If you put it low, you might want to avoid this plan, but if you crank it up, it becomes more powerful.

As a comment, I use the "radar" spells as heavily and as early as I can. The sooner you get the site, the sooner you start getting more gems. You have to invest to make money as they say...

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

I usually build my rainbows around path boosters. If I have to choose between Air 3 or Fire 3, I have Fire at 3 to have access to Flame Helmets. If I can afford one path at 4, and my nations has Air mages, getting the Air boosters is well worth the cost. I might take E1 for a MA Ulm rainbow, just to be able to give her Earth Boots and then make Crystal Coins. As Ulm I'd also take Death and Fire for those Flaming Skulls; Fire at 3 to be able to do a Fires from the Sky if it's needed, and Death no lower than 2, to let me start with Skull Staff.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Just a quick note on site levels: Of the 563 sites in the game, roughly 120 are national sites or reserved empty slots. Of the remaining 400-odd sites, there are maybe 50 sites above lv 2 and that's with lv 3 and 4 sites put together. Perhaps a bit more than that, but I'm at work right now and can't access the site DB.

So using a rainbow pretender with values over 2 across the board for site searching is a complete waste of time. It's much better to research Thaumaturgy 2, Evo 2 and Conjuration 4 to get access to all the radar spells.

Edi

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Hmm, 50 out of 400 is about 12.5% and they tend to be the richest of the bunch. While I agree that the radar spells are great, I do find hitting level four for the bless and a chunk of the gem sites useful. Level 3 is what I find questionable.

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

Some of them are the richest, but a lot of them are either rare or unique or both. That means that betting on finding them is uncertain at best and results in lots of idling for a powerful researcher/forger.

I do have a good handle on which sites are unique based on both the Dom2 Site DB and names, but the problem is that uniqueness is also tied to the location masks (it's one more value for the mask).

I can divine most of the masks and frequencies from the old DB, but I need either the source code or somebody reverse engineering the masks out of the game somehow for the rest of them.

Edi

Re: The value of site searching rainbow pretenders
 

One of the ways to make rainbow pretender search more efficient in the early game is to take an indy province with him, search, take another province, search, etc... Something like Ghost King is a good candidate for this role. There's a synergy because the most magic-site-promising provinces are usually weaker defended,