Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

Hi all. I'm preparing to start some kind of ladder for Dominions 3 players to measure their skills in. I have some basic ideas of how I would like to do it but since I want to do this for the whole Dominion 3 community it rather should be done the way most people here want it. I do have some suggestions though... feel free to add any comments or suggestions if you have any interest in this.

The Ladder : My suggestion for the rating used in this ladder is the chess rating called ELO. You can find more info here http://chess.about.com/library/weekly/aa03a25.htm. This is a great ratingsystem and with some small adjustments it would fit a Dom3 ladder perfectly.

After people has registered on the ladder they are free to challenge anyone regardless of their rating.

The game : 1v1 games. Well since Dominions 3 is so complex there aren't 2 nations that are balanced to eachother. So how do we get the most fair matches? Well my idea is that the moderator first randomize which era will be played and then for that era randomize the 2 nations that will be used. 2 games are started and each player play one nation in the first game and the other nation in the second game. If you win both games you won the challenge, if you win one each the challenge was a draw and finally if you lost both games you obviously lost the challenge.

The Settings : I think that the standard settings in most cases should be applied but with some changes. First change should be indies... how strong should they be? When I solo I almost always play on 7 but perhaps there is better reason to use something else. Second change, I'd like to make is to set research faster. This will be 1v1 games and the later research areas will probably seldom be acquired otherwise. Also I would like more settings to tone down bless rushing abit. While it should be a viable strategy it shouldn't automaticly be the best ones. I am open for any suggestions.

The Map : I want to use random maps. With the regular settings. What are your suggestions on this?

The Server : I will provide for a server where the matches are setup up on and anyone that has server capacity is welcome to help me out.

The Webpage : Well it's not really necessary but it would be nice having a page showing the matches and a list of everybodies rating. But as I have never webmastered anything someone else would have to handle this.

Now perhaps you have better ideas than me. You might just want tournaments or something else than a ladder instead, then please suggest so. Perhaps noone has any interest in this at all in which case I just try to forget it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

Good idea, I was thinking of doing something similar myself, just for the fun of it. My system involved just rating players on how they performed in MP games just in the multiplayer section of this forum. I was going to call it, The Hall of Fame, I still may do it as my system will be alot different than yours. However, being in 6 MP's at the moment I lack time! I was very, very happy to be knocked out of the 7th MP I was in.

I hope your idea takes off.

Just a suggestion, but in order to find the best players, shouldn't all the settings be standard with no changes? Why nerf blesses? If you try to nerf them, then you are not really playing the standard, default version of Dom3. If blesses are too powerful the developers Illwinter should tone them down.

I say just play the standard Dom3, latest version, with random nations, random map size, default/standard settings. Everyone knows exactly where they stand and its a very simple system.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

For selecting nations you could use an idea some-one(forget who) suggested a while ago:
Have player x pick the 2 nations that will be played and let player y pick which one he wants.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

Awesome Saarud! I would love to be a part of this.

There is another thread with a little discussion on coming up with fair matches.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1

Of course now I just saw your name on there so I imagine you read it.

Instead of playing 2-3 matches there is another idea that I think has a lot of merit. B0rsuk came up with the premise of it.

One person decides which 2 nations are going to play and all of the game settings. The second person picks the side they want to play. So it obviously in the first person interest to make sure the choices are as fair as possible.

Settings that could be determined:
Number of provences
Typical map stuff (indy, research speed, gold, etc.)
Treaty Time, number of turns until direct conflict is allowed.
House Rules (no dual bless... or no castings of hurricane)
-Anything else?

It might make sense to create a few "balanced maps" as right now the random maps can give one player a lot of rich provences and leave the other with poor swamps. And you might want to allow a mulligan that can be used within the first 3 turns (or similar) in case someone gets a second turn plague or other very nasty event.

Anyways... sign me up as a player as soon as you are ready. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

That thing sounds great.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

I would prefer to let both players play both nations and give 1 point for each turns you defeat your opponent before turnh 100. Games end in a draw at turn 100. Or 50 if people like that better.

After people play thier game using any settinsg they agre on, they put up the score on the wiki and whoever wants to administer this recalculates wins/draws/losses into Elo change.

Every new player should have an ELO of 1000, and each game should at most have an ELO change of 30.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

I think this would be the easiest system and I would be intrested in playing a game tonight.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

Meglabob: A Hall of Fame... what a great idea. You want some help getting eliminated from the rest of your games? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The reason I beleive blesss RUSHING is to good for a 1v1 game is that in games with more than 2 players these things balance themselves out. It'll be hard for most nation to survive a Helheim bless rushing early on. You do have a point about playing on the standard settings. Anyhow right now we are just collecting ideas and discussing them.

Maltreas: Yeah I read that thread and waited for someone to take the initiativ to start a ladder of some sort. Borsuks idea is great and perhaps the right way to go. You also do have a point regarding maps. Hmm we need to hear more opinions.

Folket: Now that idea is just awsome, though it highly encourage bless rushing. I would like every strategy to be viable even the high scales one that just tries to outproduce your opponent. All these strategies can be applied to big MP games but in 1v1 games blessrushing will be way too über in any case.. me thinks.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

That is a very interesting idea Folket.

It seems like there are a lot ways to make a duel game work.

I like the idea of a treaty. Give 24 months before hostilities can start and suddently things like Misfortune 3 and Death 3 are no longer "no-brainers" for most builds.

Plus you can get a little more flavor of "big gun" stuff that you will never see otherwise in a duel.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

It does not encourage bless rushing, only if the people agre to allow heavy blesses.

In each game the players agre on settings. I was refering to house rules as well.

As well as mods, version number, treaty turns, and all other things you can think of.

My idea is just let two players play games the way they like and record the results.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

We can all make suggestions but its going to get down to being that the method of the ladder is going to be up to whoever ends up doing it. And no matter what it is, some will feel that it doesnt reflect some method of play so they will be free to create another ladder. I think we will end up getting two or three ladders which everyone can use as general comparisons.

Actually, Im rather hoping it goes that way. Id rather have the "but I kicked you on xxxxx ladder" discussions than to have one supposedly "ultimate answer" on who is king. Things like that have killed games. I dont really think Dominions is susceptible to a single-ladder king strategist anyway. There are too many different types of games you can play.

By the way, the devs seem to like victory point games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

Just lets gather all the ideas. Perhaps we could have a vote on them after we discussed every detail?

We have so far 3 ideas of how to setup games.

1) Era chosen randomly, 2 nations chosen randomly, 2 games with each player playing both nations. ELO system determines the rating.
PROS: A skillful player can play whatever nation. Fair as both players play both nations.
CONS: You have to play nations you are not comfortable with.

2) One player chose which nations should be in and which settings should be applied. The other player chose first which nation to play.
PROS: Just one game per match. Fair as it is in the first players interest to chose fair nations under fair settings.
CONS: I think many players will always chose the same nations which wouldn't be a true testamente to their skill.

3) 2 nations is chosen by the players and played by each player in 2 games. The settings are also chosen by the players. ELO system to determine rating, with the base of 1 point for each turns you defeat your opponent before turnh 100. Games end in a draw at turn 100. Or 50 if people like that better.
PRO: Easier to setup games which might lead to mor epeople joining.
CONS: ???

Please add more ideas if you have any. More comments on those ideas that has been expressed so far.

Gandalf: You are ofcourse right! (As always) I will do this first and foremost because I think it's fun. I love statistics, ratings and stuff. I want all the people to think this is a fun way of measuring their 1v1 skill.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

I just thought Id forestall some later complaints, or guilt, by saying that we will agree and get a ladder. But its likely to be just one ladder out of other possible versions.

I have another version that I was considering doing myself. Keeping track of final scores on my site for games that I run where 1 player plays against an AI. It wouldnt allow for "I kicked your ..." bragging but thats a plus in my opinion. It would even up giving a general feel for who is and isnt challengable material if Doof ends up high on the ladder playing Ermor against every AI, and Goofus ends up high on the ladder playing Ulm. Depending on how much info I plan on storing it might also provide some insight into whch nations have more trouble vs specific other nations. Of course a human can always beat an AI but things like Ermor having an easier time vs Ulm and it does against Marignon.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

I like your idea Gandalf. I will ofcourse make my contribution to such a ladder and play some games myself, if you get it up and running http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

This 1v1 idea is specifically based on the MP part of the game and in this case 1v1 challenges. With timne and results a ladder of any sort will provide with informations on which nation has an advantage on other nations as well as which player is really good at 1v1. 1v1 is special because you don't rely on diplomacy but instead only on the nations at hand.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

This is a great idea Saaurd.

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

@Saruud
I think all the ideas have merit. Borsuk's method sounds the most fair, but the last method is good because it allows people to actually play the nation they want.

Since many duels tend to end up as rush games and use small maps, let me offer a variant idea: 2 players and 4 AI opponents. The AI is for facilitating a larger map and longer game. Victory must be complete; not just against the other player. One player chooses a nation. Then the second player chooses a nation. Finally, the first player chooses the map, AI opponents and settings.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Dominions 3 1v1 Ladder
 

I think there was a ladder for Doms 2. but it wasn't very successful. [I think it was hosted by that battlefield site?] Maybe this ladder will be more lucky to survive.

Just a little note.
Since the game is far from balanced, and it won't be balanced ever, balance mods or not [it is just impossible to balance all magic paths and units perfectly, they are too diverse], I suggest the following.
All 1v1 matches should have 2 rounds. For example: the players will decide that what nations would they like to see in the duel. Both of the players can suggest 1 nation. In our case Player A wants to see Mictlan in the duel, and Player B wants to see Vanheim in the duel. 1st round -> Play A: Mictlan, Player B: Vanheim, 2nd round -> Player A: Vanheim, Player B: Mictlan. This way the duels will be perfectly balanced, since the players wont have any national advantages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif