Which nations need bennies?
 

I dislike the conceptual balance mods, and wish to pursue balance by an additive, rather than subtractive route (also Growth is only underpowered if you play on a postage stamp). I will fold these modifications into my megamod once I can get it working http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Here are the changes I would like to make:
1) Every nation should get a full slate of national heroes. This is an extension of the worthy heroes mod to 7 heroes per nation. Part of the rationale for this is, in spite of the addition of extra income events, Fortune/Turmoil is still somewhat weaker for most positions than Order/Misfortune. So, we can make Fortune better without changing the event frequencies or anything else coarse. Those nations (Panga-cough) which already thrive on turmoil get loser heroes.

2) I'd like to add a lot of national spells. National spells are less likely to muddle the existing theme or feel of a nation, and are intrinsically easier to balance than additions or changes of national units.

For a weakness to be "problematic", it should meet most or all of the following criteria:
a) It should render the nation significantly un-fun (hopeless) to play under a common circumstance.

b) There should be no easy way to adjust your tactics around the weakness already in game. We are not trying to encourage turtling here - "I can't ignore the world until turn 60 and then launch my space armada" != a weakness.

c) It should lead to defeat with >80% certainty. There are only a few nations (Abyssia and Jotunheim only, I think) that beat a double-bless Helheim in a cage match reliably. I don't view this as unbalanced - if you can go 1:2 against helheim under such circumstances the game is still worth playing, and weaknesses of the helheim position later in the game will tell.

The additions we make to correct these weaknesses should:
a) By preference, be new heroes. If not new heroes, new spells. If not new spells, new national units. I'd like to add new units only as a last resort. OTOH, if someone has a really cool idea for a new national unit (those guys added to Pythium are neat), we should use it.

b) Preserve both the feel and main tactics of the nation - preferably, they should enhance them. If a nation has critically weak national mages, for example, we should give them national spells that make those national mages more useful in conjunction with their existing national units.

Let me give an example. I tend to think that Caelum is somewhat weak - especially against forces consisting of craptons of crap (existing lightning magic does great against small numbers of elite units.) This spell is drawn from the classic RPG Powers and Perils.

#newspell
#name "Darkling Light"
#descr "This spell calls down several bolts of the black lightning of the dark, which arcs among the stormclouds of the underworld. Each bolt of the black lightning can strike several foes, but it is silent and produces no shockwave."
#school 2
#researchlevel 4
#path 0 5
#path 1 1
#pathlevel 0 1
#pathlevel 1 1
#fatiguecost 70
#aoe 1
#effect 2
#nreff 1003
#damage 1008
#precision 5
#range 5025
#flightspr 339
#explspr 10009
#spec 64
-- Does anyone know how to make the zots blind people, do shock damage and cause lesser fear?
#restricted 9
#restricted 59
#end

Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

I think mid-era Agartha blows. No archers, no randoms, no good mages, all your mages are old, and the only unit in your entire army that can bust even medium armor is a capitol-only sacred troop with a protection of 12.

Let's see... they get their asses handed to them by:

• Archers.
• Heavy Armor
• Battle Magic

And there's no real way around that for a really long time. When they finally do get their national spells, it pretty much boils down to making living statues and trundling slowly forward. In short, these guys are a poor substitute for Ulm. Gah.

So what do they need? They need the ability to do something in combat with an Earth Reader, because that's what they are supposed to use. That means that they need some decent combat effects for 1 Earth and 1 Holy.

How about a copyspell of Arrow Fend or Summon Storm for path requirements 1 Earth, 1 Holy? It would allow them to put Earth Gems on their peoples and reduce the impact of their nation's crippling archery shortage.

And how about a national version of Weapons of Sharpness that was much smaller in area and available with less research and Earth magic? That would let their damnably useless shortsword infantry fight enemies in chainmail and accomplish anything at the same time.

With those two spells under their belt, I could see the Agarthans doing something - rather than just bending over and bracing themselves every time Man showed up. That's the worst part about this. It's not that they are stuck against some weird troop type available to only one faction or another - no. They are a middle era nation with no good answer to Knights or Bowmen. That's lame.

-Frank

Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

I'm slowly formulating a gnome-nation which has quite a few earth effects, so I've thought about this issue a bit. One thing I'd like to see for Agartha is some kind of cave-superiority like Atlantians get for being amphibious. Agartha, being amphibious, should be the nation to pick if you want to go everywhere: ocean, land, cave, and they should be getting some kind of plusses for that. I really lean towards some kind of combat penalty for a lot of nations who aren't suited to fighting underground, besides the lack of light, although that's a big step in the right direction-cave provinces should definitely be utterdark as a matter of course, but even then, caves are hideously uneven and can be remarkably treacherous. A spelunking ability akin to amphibian and poor amphibian would be a step in the right direction here I think, and then once that was in, I've got quite a few ideas about some of the friendly-to Agartha-creatures that might live in caves. I tend to think in terms of adding new and interesting units, rather than changing ones that are already in the game too much, although ofcourse that's always a possibility for some of the redundant and more or less useless units in the game (there are a number).

Don't tell Kristoffer, but I'd really like to see some kind of Agarthan beholder in the game, if only because the body-type-including levitation and multiple eyes-would be perfect for caves. For my mod, whenever I get around to it, I want to see Agartha having a few of the more complex cave-creatures while remaining more or less the same, while gnomes will have access to earth elemental kind, and a third, "N'kai", proposed by Nerfex, will feature slimes and molds and fungi. There may possibly be a fourth Myconid nation, but that's just barely visible to me right now.

Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

Kite Shields are good against archers. Bucklers aren't. Kite Shield infantry do fine against bows. The problem is that Agartha doesn't have bows of their own, and are forced to use independents.

Agartha can also use Rust Mist to great effect against HI, and it's only Evo 2.
The normal warriors have str 10 and Shortsword, dam 5, so they deal about 15 damage. It goes through most armor (14% chance of dealing 1 point of damage through prot 20; bigger chance of dealing 1 or more), but of course, not through shields. Pale One Soldiers have worse attack, so even less chance of punching through shields, and they have just Buckler, and they deal about the same damage (str 12, 3 dam in spear). They do fine against HI without shields, such as Tien Chi's glaives or half of Ulm guys.

Battle magic, as in what? They Pale Ones have good magic resistance at normal gold/res costs, and lots of hp, so Astral spells will probably target ainly them and fail to have an effect. Even Pale Ones and medium infantry have decent protection. Lightning? Huge AoE spells that decimate all units everywhere, not just MA Agartha's? This isn't any worse than with most other nations, they just don't have any easy way to answer to that, besides perhaps Marble Oracle thugs, but that's just comparable to Golem thugs, perhaps worse.


IMO, they can manage against most targets, but really, their problem is that they don't live where their description would suggest. In caves, with darkness making bows and enemy units less useful, they'd do just fine. Unfortunately, there aren't any cave provinces in current MP maps.
Also, even MA Agartha can go underwater pretty easily. They don't get much from that, though, because the water nations beat them there, and they can't use the water provinces to beat the land nations except perhaps by giving them another way to advance to after land indies are taken, and that only works if there are NO underwater nations in the game.

I'd just make the existing (Enchantment) national spells easier to cast. Attentive Statue to Ench 2 and E1, so that Earth Readers can summon them, Sentinels to Ench 3, Granite Guards to Ench 4 and Marble Oracles to Ench 5. Alternatively, or perhaps in addition to, these could be moved to Construction. It works much better for their mages, and lets them easily use their Ancient One commanders and later Marble Oracles as thugs.

Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

Propably a worthless idea but I made a 1n1d spell for Machaka that summons 0 mapmove sacred "spiderlings" with Webspit. Needed a way to bolster the fragile PD of that nation. Would have made it into a global enchantment like "Mechanical Militia" if I could figure out how.

Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

I would think that MA Agartha-with the inclusion of humans and all our bright shiny ideas-would have some troops specifically tailored to fight water empires. True, they still might not hold up as well, might be costly in terms of gold/resources, but they ought to have some soldier types which are there incase the player wants to spend a lot of gold/resources and tackle water. A national summons would work here too. They shouldn't have the ability to go underwater unless they have some kind of strategy to back it up, and I think that once the humans showed up, they'd start exploiting that in some way.

Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

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Re: Which nations need bennies?
 

Niefel province defense is awful, and I can't decide if it should be that way or not. Mythologically-speaking, Jotunheim was pretty well-guarded, unless you were Thor, but at the same time, I'm not sure how well organized the Jotun were until Utgard-Loki showed up. Still, Niefel is supposedly one of the strongest nations out there. I kind of disagree with that, they're a logistics nightmare, but I doubt too many people are going to jump on the "poor Niefelheim" bandwagon.

Atlantis EA
 

Atlantis Living Pillars are great troops, but one area in which they are weak is that if you have an Earth sacred bless, it only seems to raise their prot up to 22 from 20. Unless I'm viewing this wrong, this makes them weaker than they ought to be. Is this a bug? I hope so, because Living Pillars are extremely hard to mass and should have the full effect of a bless strategy, should someone choose to go that way with EA Atlantis, just because their are very few advantages to doing so already. At Prot 24, (20 + 4 earth bless) 1 Living Pillar would be worth buying over 3 coral guards. It's a small thing, but it's enough to tip the balance against using Living Pillars, which is a shame, because they're such a cool unit, otherwise (one of the few units who don't take explitive from Helheim's best-I've seen one berserk Living Pillar take out 3 blessed Helheim troops and keep coming), and already lack a lot of love.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

Living Pillars have Basalt Armor (prot 18), natural protection (9), and they don't have a helmet. Because natural and armor protection don't stack straight, their final protection is Head (9) and Body (23). Legions of Steel and Earth 9 bless both only raise armor protection, and unfortunately, Living Pillars don't wear any head armor.

The protection value shown in the unit screen is only an approximation. You should always check the actual protection values.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

I think I have, but you could be right. I'm glad it's not a bug. You'd think they'd get helmets though, having to hold up the basalt city on their heads like they do. I bet they get migraines.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

Oh, goodie! Finally a blessing made almost totally useless for _some_ nations. God I love all the new mechanics in Dom3. [/sarcasmoff]

So now E9 blessing gives _no_ protection benefit to the sacred troops of a number of nations, and sacred priests/mages have to put on some armor to get the benefit.

I could see that (somewhat) with Legions of Steel, but the bleeding earth blessing?!? Feh.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

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Re: Atlantis EA
 

My opinion on the subject (for whatever that's worth) is that Earth Bless should affect the unit's base Prot value, regardless of what the unit happens to be wearing. After all-unless the unit is wearing that sacred shroud thing, it is the unit who is sacred, not the unit's clothing.

Armor upgrade (ala Legions of Steel etc.) is, obviously, a different matter entirely.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

The problem with that is for the majority of sacred units, the earth bless prot bonus would then be half as big. And the remainder (shadow vestels, sacred serpents, werejaguars, yavanas, gibodai) still wouldn't care much - spending a nine-point blessing to boost your protection all the way up to 11 is not exciting. You could make the bonus +8 to base armor - a 15 protection sacred serpent starts to look interesting. I'm not sure if there are any sacred rhino lizards for which this would be ungamebalanced, though. Certainly it would make putting the throud of the battle saint on someone very interesting indeed.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

I'll really be happy when we can mod the bless effects. How about a +6 to base armor? how does that look?

Re: Atlantis EA
 

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Re: Atlantis EA
 

Or living pillars, or knights of the chalice, or knights of the templar, or burning ones ect.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

Shova32 - +6 base armor would be *half as big* for any of those as the existing earth blessing (+4), except for the living pillar, for whom it would be +4 on the head and +2 on the body (instead of the reverse.)

But black hunter spiders - or "sacred rhino lizards" as I called them in my original post, have a high natural protection (as opposed to blessed protection) already.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

I don't see giving Machaka a boost as a downside, since I've heard and tend to believe from my own experiences, that they're a little underloved, as well, especially the sorcerors of black mountain. Once we're able to modify bless effects (any day now I hope) I think I'm going to put protection bless over in a Metal magic path and then have it build up gradually, from 2 prot at M4 +2 for every two levels of Metal, topping off at +8 prot for M10 (that would be armor protection though, natural protection boost I might put forth as the bonus for another magic path, now that I've got this information.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

Back to the original topic- EA Ulm needs help. Their troops are pretty crummy- only one unit has a shield, and it has only a short sword to go with it. Their mages, while not awful are earth/nature and therefore lack killing power. In a nutshell this nation has lots of "tools" (fast units, terrain bonuses, CR, stealth etc) but completly lacks raw power. The one thing i will say for them is that their inadequate units are reasonably priced. They need, at a minimum, either some good low level national summons or a better caster. I don't really have a good idea for a thematic summons though.

Other than KD, already mentioned, no other nation is really jumping out as underpowered off the top of my head. I will say that i have to disagree about Caelum- mammoths seem to me to be a great answer to hordes of scum ,their casters are excellent, and they get lots of free design points becasue of the cold.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

How does EA Ulm's magic resistance compare to other nations? Thematically, it makes sense that they might have a boost to MR and if they don't that might be a good way to even them out, if it's felt to be needed.

Re: Atlantis EA
 

EA Ulm has access to: 1) All elements. 150% random gives both Shamans and Smiths have a 50% chance of either Fire random (to Magma line of spells) or E2 (to Earthpower and Blade Wind) from both randoms. Their problem is weak access to Water line of Evocations; their units would make it very good if they had easier access to Water casters. Some Smiths will have one pick, very few might have 2. If your pretender can build Robe of the Sea (or you wait to Constr 6 and Water Bracelets) you can start forging boosters with the Smiths.

E2N2 is enough for Earth Power/Blade Wind, which is more than fine in EA, and Sleep, which gives them one low-level counter to tough units if they can deal damage via other ways. Their normal units should be able to finish up e.g. Niefel Giants if the Sleep strikes them unconscious. They have some heavy-duty damage-dealing units in all their double-attackers, VERY good armor for EA humans, and forge bonus and tough national commanders. N2 gives access to Thistle Maces, and N3 is fine for Charm, berserk-line of spells, Haste and few other Enchatments (inluding Regeneration and Mass Regeneration).

They would benefit from having access to MA Ulm's Tempering the Will. MA Ulm doesn't use it because MA Ulm gets nothing else from Thaumaturgy; EA Ulm on the other hand gets Charm and the berserk spells.

Machaka is Awesome
 

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Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

The witch doctors aren't very effective battle mages except if you have lots of gems to spend to boost them or a very high research, and Machaka military forces are far to worth most other nations units (you have no niefel giants to kill in ME and the big spiders aren't very efficient against lots of smaller opponents).

To resume you have one capitol only rather good sacred unit, one cost effective rather good infantry unit, but they have mapmove 1 and cost 27 ressources, some ultra-light units you will replace by independants if you can, and some ultra expensive extra units you will perhaps use a little if you are one of the first powers with an income in the several thousands category. Then you have a good choice of mages and priests, more or less sufficient to compensate the weaknesses in all other areas.

Anyway Machaka ends rather good with a good magical strategy and doesn't need a big boost IMO.

Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

I'm not personally complaining about Machaka, they seem alright to me, but I have heard some convincing arguments against them. My position is that Atlantis's sacred unit needs help. I also think R'lyeh Aboleths is weak. I think, as far as Province Defense goes, a major overhaul is needed, and I have some ideas for that which I'll eventually post for review. I tend to agree about the witch doctors-I don't think they should start off old, and the mechanics by which they transform could perhaps use a little tweaking. In EA, lion-tribe warriors are some of the nicest independent footsoldiers you can find, and Machaka seems to have been based on these. They aren't quite as good in Middle Age, but still fine. I'll be happy to see Machaka in EA, but not much wrong with them now.

Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

Actually Machaka was available in DomII, but the Lion Tribe only appeared in Dom3. But yes, one is based to the other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

Personnally if a change is to be made affecting Machaka I would like a change of light units prices/upkeep affecting all nations. With all human non elite units with 7 or less protection having a cost of 8 gold instead of 10 (and very low morale + low protection militias say 6 gold), the machaka low ressources cost and high mapmoves infantry would become really interesting. Armors need to be made by artisans and repaired, so it seems logical that units with a chain mail cost a little more than naked ones (or quasi naked ones).

As it is Machaka will prefer to recruit any indep unit in medium armor, as paying the same price/upkeep for troops one shoted by anything isn't very cost efficient. I think with a specific price for leather/naked infantry, using the machaka warriors, will become more a valid choice (one more mapmove / more ap at the price of the 4-7 protection most light indies have).

ps : witch doctors aren't old, only black sorcerers and some sorceress are (as for most human nations, the best capitol only mages are the older)

Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

Well, I agree with Twan in principle - *national* light infantry should cost less money, if that is most of what you get. Slingers actually do seem to get this discount. Independent light infantry should not.

This way, Machaka and possibly even Mictlan would actually field their scum from the huts of scum. Right now I'll put a few of them scattered in front of my hoplites as skirmishers and that's it.

However, that is too drastic a change for this context. If we want to make Machaka light infantry more practical, we can consider things like a cheap, area-of-effect, machaka national stoneskin? Or barkskin. Spiderskin!

An area of effect version of barkskin, for HH, would do a lot to improve those guys. That'd be pretty cool. I've always thought that Machaka should have some reason to send the Voice of the Lord into combat. Does anyone know anything about ethiopian orthodox liturgy? I recall reading somewhere that medieval europeans believed that there was a christian king in north africa who had knights that rode on giant ants. I've always assumed this was a partial inspiration for Machaka. Anyone know this reference?

Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

Mind Lords are actually pretty vicious super-combatants. The ones with earth randoms get ironskin, which combined with all the astral buffs, quickness, AOE life draining attacks, and almost 90 HP is tough. They also have 20 base MR and easy access to ring of regeneration. Doesn't suck!

Unfortunately, once you get past the capitol-only mind lords, the rest of the nation is garbage. Slave mages NEED the possibility of an air random, because your pretender needs to be an SC to expand and you need amulets to make landfall.

Re: Machaka is relatively not weak
 

I'm gearing up to modify the explitive out of Aboleths, including giving all Mind Lords 1 earth since they live in mud. The new version will feature giant sea urchins who move very slowly but trample, and giant armored sea snails who shoot poison spines. Both will be province-immobile, but can be built at any fortress. Slaves will come in more variety. A middle-age Aboleth nation will have these in addition to kracken-riders, enslaved trolls, Mamluk-based "slaves" with more social and political power, and undead gibodai-based mindlord national summons. For middle-age, polypal mothers (there may be several kinds, each producing a different type of spawn) will become national summons and there will be no purchaseable national priests. A possible late-age Aboleth nation may feature several different kinds of evolved (some amphibian) Mind-Lord, a void-gate, dolphin-riders who can "fly" in the water, enslaved illithids, a Mind-Lord pretender, and intelligent jellyfish troops.

I was just thinking that if I were going to modify Machaka, especially for a late age nation, I'd cut out the spiders and give them a sacred unit similar in technical form to a lion tribe warrior with background based on the Masai. They'd be armed with magic spears and able to transform into ghostly (as in Yomi) berserk were-lions when "killed". Other sacred units with the same abilities might ride giant lions. This late-age version of Machaka would probably be a nomadic nation as suggested previously by others.