The possibility of partnership.
 

Ok, just an idea that came to me here, but I wanted to get the forum's opinions as well as bring it to the attention of the designers.

Another game I own, and of which some of you may have heard, is Galactic Civilizations 2, "Dread-Lords" by Stardock. The reasons I bring it up are that it too was created by a small number of designers, and it is known for having one of the best AIs for turn-based on the market. It's a pretty decent game overall, and the designers are looking for a fantasy turn based strategy to work on. I'm wondering, not only if the designers would be interested in working with Stardock, but if the community as a whole think they'd be a good company for Illwinter to work with to possibly bring the Dom series to a larger market, and to help expand the game and improve it in good areas. They seem to be good at what they do, and the kind of company which could handle Dom with care, but ofcourse I'd encourage anyone with an opinion to do research and homework on the subject.

My opinion:
In order to take the Dom series to the next level any time soon, it seems pretty clear that it's going to take more than two designers, unless we fit slave collars on Johan and Kristoffer and make them work 24/7 on Dom. While I personally am all for that, evil greedy beast that I am, I'm pretty sure it's illegal, and maybe even immoral, whatever that means. At the same time, big bloated companies like Atari etc. clearly aren't the way to go. Stardock already has created a good, popular small game-Galactic Civilizations-and then successfully expanded it into a broad market without destroying what made the game good in the first place. They show innovation, they seem to have a very good record of working with their fan-community, and they have technology and know-how that would directly and significantly improve those areas where Dom 3 really doesn't shine-specifically AI. I believe they actually care about making good games and like playing games, and they seem to have a good grasp of what a good game is.

If Kristoffer and Johan are satisfied with Illwinter going it alone, ofcourse that's perfectly fine with me and I respect that, not that I have a choice in the matter, but it's possible that they are looking for, or have thought about looking for, a company to partner with on the Dom series, in which case I'd like to do my part to insure that they make a good choice about that partner, and in the process hopefully make me a better game.

Naturally, I have no connection with Stardock, Illwinter, or anyone willing to pay me one red cent about my opinion on pretty much any subject, I'm sad to say, but atleast it keeps my interests earnest and my hands clean.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I've not had much interest in GalCiv due to the nearly non-existant combat system. So I've not enough experience to know much about their developers' strengths. However having programmed game AI myself, it seems to me that while the GalCiv AI apparently has made a very good impression, the game it's playing isn't nearly as complex or detailed as Dominions and its database. It's far easier to make a convincing AI for a game with fewer detailed decisions and game systems to master.

Also, I think IW benefits greatly from being developed with money-making being a tertiary consideration at most, and with a mass-market audience having near-zero influence on development decisions. So, I'm hoping IW stay centered on interesting "hard-core" game design, and remain ambivalent to the "larger market" and investors who would want them to change their priorities.

PvK

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Welp, not that it matters much, but I completely disagree with Pvk, and concur with HoneyBadger.

As a single-player sort, over the course of weeks/months now, on the larger maps sort of guy. And not a moron. I appreciate the depth and the beauty that the designers have brought to the table.

But I don't appreciate finding myself reading a hundred posts about how screwed up Vanheim is. Nor being doinked by that nation, in single player games, time and again, in single player games. I'm not casual by any means, but the hardcore junkets many of you fly should give some ground for us middling folks that want to kick it with some excellent strategic AND MYTHOLOGICAL/HISTORICAL noise now and then.

Stardock's made money. Stardock doesn't rape. Brad's a nice guy. Speak to them and square away the balance and AI for those of us that don't play a bazillion hours per day.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I understand benefits of having only ~2 people on team. You can make the game exactly the way you want. This is a huge pro for someone interested in creating games, believe me.

In case you wanted to benefit from their electronic distribution system, Caravelgames is even smaller than Stardock (probably) but sells their game through download.
http://caravelgames.com
DROD rocks, by the way.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I also like how small IW is because it means that they take input from their (rabid) fanbase very seriously.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I'm not sure if you noticed, but Galciv gives all races the exact same units to play with, so is balanced by means of complete symmetry.

AI is also probably not a consideration, since Galciv was designed around the idea of the customizable (by Brad) AI. Dominions however isn't, and as far as I can guess, does not have specific hooks and handles to alter the AI, and is also immensly more complex.

Also, there's the fact the Stardock and Illwinter are located in different continents.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Well, small companies aren't really the issue, B0rsuk, the issue is Illwinter possibly partnering with another game company that would benefit my own personal gaming experience. My point and my goal is to locate a game company that, as tromper states very concisely: "makes money and doesn't rape" the game. Stardock could be a very good choice. Stardock seems to be a company which is strong in the areas Dom 3 is weak. I like that they focus on the single-player experience, and I like that they have very good AI implementation. I'm glad that Dom3 has excellent multi-player, I'm glad that aspect of the game is there if I choose to use it, but in the meantime, I enjoy playing single-player. It would be nice if less limited programming resources and man-hours could be used to smooth out some of the rougher spots in the game.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

To be honest, the GalCiv AI isn't exactly amazing either. In certain areas it's fairly strong, but diplomacy is somewhat weak and it's understanding of combat is limited.

Mind you, Stardock were talking about a homage to Master Of Magic, might be an ideal project for the two to corroborate on.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

AI isn't people, fortunately. It's going to be limited however you look at it. It's also not realistic to suppose that Illwinter and Stardock would corroborate on a Master of Magic sequil or clone-for one thing, Stardock tried to buy the rights to MoM and the holding company made things too difficult, so they aren't doing that anymore.
I do think that if Illwinter went to Stardock with Dom3 that there'd be a very good chance for the two to get together, and once that happened, for really good things.

Besides, I completely agree with the opinion that, not only is Dom3 not MoM, it should not be MoM. Historically, it's a lot closer to Fantasy Generals or maybe King's Bounty. While I wouldn't mind a very little bit more infrastructure-building (I think the presence of a Forge would compliment the Temple and Lab and add the possibility of some advanced troops, and maybe be used to expand magical forging and the game's economics) I don't want to see the game turn into a Christmas train-set of buildings that only exist to explain why I'm able to produce troop type Q.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I thought they said they couldn't get the rights, hence the homage rather than the modern version?

Regardless, I wasn't saying that Doms 3 should be more like MoM. I simply figure MoM would be a logical project for both teams - Stardock pretty much lifted most of the mechanics from MOO II in Galciv 1, Illwinter have the fantasy world background. One of the more serious problems with both GalCiv games was that there was little difference between races - whether your playing Terran or Drengin makes no real difference apart from a couple of numbers. There's no real 'feel' for the race you're playing. Dominions on the other hand has a distinct theme and feeling for each race, despite the shared magic and similar, but is limited on the strategic level (in the sense that your pretty much raising armies and killing your enemies and nothing else).
I still can't see what Stardock could really do for Doms 3 beyond making it 'more like MoM'. They're good at the economic type stuff, the tech trees and similar, but in the two areas Doms 3 AI really could be improved (Diplomacy, tactics) Stardock are just as bad as Illwinter.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I would love to see a partnership between Stardock/Illwinter, I am a big fan of both GC2 and Dom3. The only reason I bought/knew about Dom3 was Brad Wardell giving his personal recommedation to try/buy Dom3 on the Stardock website.

It seems to me from what I have read on this forum and Stardocks that those two companies would complement each another very well with a partnership.

Kristoffer and Johan seem to really enjoy creating, putting new content, features into the Dom3 series more than anything else. They also seem to do it mostly from the enjoyment of doing it than from huge finiancial gain.

Brad on the other hand loves doing AI, he has been called one of the best AI creaters in the games computing industry and he is a out and out capitalist who wants to make a good product that will make loads of dosh.

So a partnership between them could bring a excellent game like Dom3 to the 'mass market', by this I mean if put on the shelves of retail outlets I think Dom3 would sell over 200,000 units if done right. The game would have both excellent AI for SP play, I could see Brad developing 10 seperate AI's, then assigning 6 nations (with small variations, like GC2) to each. Also excellent content/depth/gameplay/MP that Illwinter have already created. I also think Stardock would considerably improve the graphics/sound/music in Dom3 as well.

Of course all this is unlikely to ever happen but we can dream can we not? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Ive actually known of GalCiv for longer than Ive known about Dominions. Persoanlly, Im not that thrilled with what GalCiv has become since it went windows/eye-candy. Im still waiting for it to catch up to its original OS/2 version.

Anyway, some problems I see with a partnership are...
A) they dont program in the same language
B) they dont program on the same OS
C) they dont speak the same language when discussing the programming projects. (Brad=english and Illwinter=finnish I think)
D) Brad isnt all that big on partners.

As for shelfware, there are alot of drawbacks to shelfware. It MIGHT be possible that Illwinter can now aford to test the marketing/shelfware methods but I kindof doubt it.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Swedish, actually. "Något gick fel." etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Maybe as an european i know more about sweds then someone from US. From my experiences they speak a better english than many americans. They don't use bad slangs and learn english from childhood on (most of the films are in english with subtitle) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Shelf space in gaming stores is at such a premium at this point that it's like radio airtime - the thing that the major publishers control is access to shelf-space, and they subcontract the work of actually making the software.

So unless J+K wanted to sign themselves over to Atari or something, Electronic Boutique simply won't carry their software.

Does anyone know how many copies of dominions 3 have shipped?

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I know this is true of europeans (in fact ther eis a funny joke about americans based on it). But I know that the games innermost circle, basically the alpha team, prefers people who talk their home toungue. Im not sure if a cross collaboration would be all that comfortable. Of course it would also help if they were all talking the same programming language, and the same operating system also.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Its also a big difference in publishing companies. The "shelfware and advertising" companies vs the "online and publicity" companies. The first one involves extensive pre-pay of funds by the publishing company which have to be paid back before anyone gets a profit check. Sometimes that can take years. The second one tends to be better for indie game developers IMHO.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I don't think Shrapnel want to divulge that kind of information - they sold more of Dom3 than they sell of most of their games, but they don't typically say how many that is.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I think you may have misunderstood. I don't see any reason to think that the people who made GalCiv (who chose a hugely simplistic and abstact combat system with pretty generic unit abilities) would have any special ability to improve the AI for Dominions (which has an extremely complex and detailed combat system and an extremely detailed unit database). Seems to me GalCiv has success with AI because they designed a less complex game with very different kinds of things the AI needed to do.

Now, it does seem that IW perhaps hasn't focussed its efforts on improving and tweaking the AI. If IW felt like adding resources rather than do that kind of work, I think a good match would be someone they could work with who is an AI programmer and a fan of Dominions who would be motivated to work on it on the same terms IW is.

But even though I see many ways that an Dom 3 fan AI programmer like myself could probably tweak the AI that would be really nice, on balance I think the AI in Dominions is remarkably good, considering all it has to deal with. And as a Dom player for years who has enjoyed playing single-player as much or more than playing multi-player, AI issues have rarely interfered with my enjoyment of the game in SP mode.

I'm also puzzled by the comment about Vanheim, since I have not seen the AI be so super-powerful as Vanheim. In fact, limitations on the ways the AI thinks prevent it from focusing on taking advantage of Vanheim's strengths. For example, I've played many single-player Dom 3 games and I've only seen Vanheim get particularly strong in one of them (but in that game, Oceania and I (as EA Ulm) were both stronger). And I've seen AI Pangaea dominate the map while AI Vanheim was locked up in a stalemate war.

As for reading hundreds of posts about how X, Y, and Z are atrociously imbalanced and horrendous... well, these Shrapnel Dominions forums have always (since Dom 2) been full of ridiculously exaggerating critics who rant and rave between their avid play sessions.

PvK

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Actually Brad Wardell has long been considered to be one of the top programmers for AI in games. Or at least one of the most mentioned for well over a decade. He was doing multi-threaded AI on the OS/2 operating system a long tieme ago and any mention of games AI in an ai newsgroup or magazine tended to mention him. WinXP was supposed to be the first Windows that finally caught up to being able to handle his AI programming altho Im not all that impressed with the windows version of his game. But his AI is excellent, and his method for incorporating it into games is as expandable as Dominions Modding.

Getting him to work on the AI for this game would be great (just the AI, and maybe the diplomacy options). But I dont think its likely to happen anymore than Brad would be likely to ask Illwinter to help him improve the balance and challenge in his game.

As for Vanheim, like I said I have never seen a problem. But then that might be because I am likely to play on large maps, with sneak nations. And on MP games with victory points.

Gandalf Parker

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

It doesn't matter so much how complicated Dom3 is compared to GalCiv2, where AI is concerned. Or atleast, it doesn't matter as much as it might seem to. The fact is, poor AI is the norm. Very few games have good AI and very few people are capable of creating good AI (even fewer are passionate about it).

Put it like this: If you have someone who's really good at making toasted cheese sandwitches, a master of the toasted cheese sandwitch craft and trade, and you ask them to make a toasted cheese sandwitch with tomato and ham and maybe just a little onion between the ham and the cheese, they're more likely to be able to make you a decent toasted ham and cheese and tomato sandwitch because they already have that talent, experience, and passion for the basic toasted cheese. Now it's possible that the project might be too big, or the person might rebel against the purity of the simple cheese + bread design, but it's also possible that the person might, in expanding his horizons, become a better, deeper, and more complete chef, able to produce a toasted sandwitch of such complexity-yet such grace-that it blows your tastebuds away.

Certainly, Galciv2 is not as complex as Dom3, but just as certainly, Galciv2 is not tic-tac-toe. A partnership would allow Johan and Kristoffer to input just as much into the game, if not much more, than Brad. I also am really glad to hear that Brad has heard of and enjoys Dom3 enough to offer it free advertizing on his site. That's a very good sign.
I'm sure that the language "barrier" can be overcome. After all, if Illwinter were willing to hire me, I'd be willing to learn Swedish or Dutch or Finnish or old Norse runes, whatever was required to make them more comfortable. If a partnership occurred, it certainly is reasonable that a few social compromises be made here and there, atleast to the extent that everyone can communicate in a shared language. Afterall, the company's name is Illwinter, not Illmannered. I agree that Kristoffer and Johan both write English better than most people on this site already, a lot of whom-as far as I know-are American.

As far as the ability to put games on shelves, I bought my copy of GalCiv2 at Wal-Mart, so that puts to rest that particular concern.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

We know its possible. We just dont know if its worthwhile. Only in certain situations is it a good idea.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I'm all for that. If it's not a good idea, or Illwinter doesn't want to do it, that's perfectly fine. I just want the idea to be assessed. Gandalf, you seem to be in the inner circle, which situations are you invoking in your above statement? anything specific?

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Putting the game onto shelves has definetly been assessed.
But shelfware and advertisizing involve alot of layout of moneys that have to be paid back before profits. Possibly Shrapnel can stand to do that, Im not sure if Illwinter can. And Im not sure if Dominions is the type of game to make that gamble a sure enough thing for anyone to gamble on.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

LOL! Given that Illwinter has ignored offers of free professional assistance, I don't think you can realistically say that Brad's the one so opposed to partners, or hiring outside help.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

> LOL! Given that Illwinter has ignored offers of free professional assistance, I don't think you can realistically say that Brad's the one so opposed to partners, or hiring outside help.

We have? I wasn't aware. Bruce was contracted to do the manual. Other offers might have been ignored for practical reasons. I hope no one was offended.

Anyone that will come to Sweden every once in a while for a coffe or two in my sofa is welcome in the development team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

So, what's your address? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Edi

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Damn you! Now I'm hungry! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Yeah I was doing pretty well. While Internet might be fattening, I have found Dom3 to be a pretty good diet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Ironically enough, my wife-who was as far as I know completely unaware of this thread, made toasted cheese sandwitches for supper last night, and they were delicious!

I can fly most anywhere in the United States for free, even a few places internationally-unfortunately, Sweden isn't one of them. Still, it certainly wouldn't be an insurmountable task to be neighborly some year or other-I'd even bring the coffee, our (Kona-brand) coffee being one of the few commercial food products these days that America can proudly compare to the rest of the world.

I hate to admit it, but there's a lot about Sweden I don't know. I know a little bit about the Vasa dynasty, but definitely there's a lot I have to learn. I'll begin rectifying that area of ignorance immediately.

I believe, Kristoffer, that you may want to raise your qualifications for joining Illwinter just a little bit. You may not realize how many fanatics-myself included-you've got here who have a lot of time and money on their hands. You just may need a bigger couch! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I can fly pretty much anywhere in the world for about $15. I really should use that more.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Yeah, I probably could too through one deal or another, now that I think about it.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I strongly doubt that the Galciv team could develop a good Dom-Ai.

But the graphics could be improved a lot and the UI too.
This is utopian of course, but imagine if Illwinter could team with Relic or CA.

Imagine Dominions Total War. Or since Illwinter said they want to do something different in the future imagine a RPG/RTS-Hybrid in the Dom universe that is a bit like Dawn of War/CoH http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

If this deal was true I'm sure there's around fifty of us which could financially make this happen and also desire to be on the Illwinter team.

Actually if the devs do expand their current company it won't be until they have decided to proceed with making Dominions_4. Whether or not they want to hire more people for Illwinter or just use a few outside contracts is their choice. I believe we'll be seeing a Dominions_4 since I'm sure the devs were very pleased with the income which arrived from Dominions_3.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

And thus the Illwinter Cult was formed...

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Yep, sign me up. I'll cook meals, wash windows, sweep floors, eat bugs, toil bareback in the fields, and sleep on yonder woodpile.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

The really scary thing to ponder isn't how many people would show up in Sweden, it's how many of us would work for Illwinter for no pay.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

> I believe we'll be seeing a Dominions_4 since I'm sure the devs were very pleased with the income which arrived from Dominions_3.

Unfortunately neither of us are that interested in money. Money is nice, but I wouldn't really know what to do with it. I like HoneyBadgers cooking suggestion though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif A nice meal is a nice meal, no matter how much money you have.

Actually I prefer positive feedback to money. I earn enough money on my daytime job. Of course I can get a lot of positive feedback from work as a techer as well, but a nice review or some nice posts here makes me happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

That might be a confusion to many but I totally understand it and agree.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Well if praise is what you want then its what your gonna get KO, this game is a true wonder and i'd be happy to come over if i was a little older.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Actually actual AI could be designed for dom 3's nations, However it would be seperate AI for each one. Several threads of data for each one would be much easier then designing an overall AI for the complexity.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Well, Kristoffer, I definitely love the game. It's a superb effort that should only be improved upon because it's such a fine program to begin with, not in spite of or because of any problems or failings. I consider it the best of it's genre out there, and I've played a lot of games. There are ways it can be better, and I want it to be better, but that will be icing on the cake as it were.

I'm interested in the game improving because I enjoy the game as it is right now, and because I want the opportunity to pay for Dom4 someday.

I'm also an excellent cook with 25 years semi-professional experience, specializing in Italian and Asian cuisine, fish and seafood, and the preparation of roasts.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

Well here are a few ideas for using money:
1) Personal Maid for cleaning and cooking... even if the maid visits only once a week.
2) Contract someone to do all the developer tasks you don't like doing... some examples might be creating sprites, making battlefield maps, public relations, legal issues or whatever.
3) Organize a contest trilogy consisting of a MP game contest, Map creation contest and Modding contest. The winner of each contest receives a money reward via paypal.
4) Make a donation to your current religion.
5) Organize a local contest of your favorite sport or hobby with rewards.
6) Buy new laptops and go traveling... thus allowing you to work while traveling.
7) Buy more land for where you live or want to live

...tell us your daily habits, hobbies, and events then we'll be able to suggest even more ways to use money.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

I have a wife so I do need to work for a living (she makes more than I do, but we're still poor), but if the offer was right, I'm sure my wife and I would be willing to move to Sweden and I could cook for you personally. I can cook a lot better than Nt Jedi's maid, that's for sure!

I wouldn't be too explicit about your daily habits, by the way. We don't want some of our more fanatic forum members stalking or kidnapping you-and yes, I have a very suspicious mind.

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

If you'll get us that archive of Dominions sprites you'll definitely get a whole lot of that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I promise atleast two pages of accolade, though I can't promise they won't all be mine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The possibility of partnership.
 

For once...I agree with Agrajag http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif