Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

One of the great appeals of Dom III is its dazzling variety of nations from which we can choose (as well as the fact that the developers have done a decent job of balancing truly disparate nations--a formidable task in itself).

Nonetheless, there are certain "obvious" historical/fantasy nation choices that seem to be missing from Dom III, and I am wondering if there are any plans to add them. In the alternative, if they are "out of the picture," I'd be interested to know the whys.

1. An Elven nation: I recall that one of the developers said that they definitely won't be in the game but did not proffer the reason for their absence. Why would this be? Elves are quite possibly the most frequently-occurring fantasy race. I suppose I can imagine two reasons. First, the developers might have wanted to get away from the classical elves, dwarves, orcs, et al. formula because they are too shopworn. Second, the traits that elves are usually deem to possess might conflict with the traits associated with the Vanir or the Tuatha.

2. A Dwarven nation: I am puzzled as to their absence for the same reason I articulated in regard to elves. But I see a more powerful rationale here, given that dwarves are part of Scandinavian mythos, so there will certainly be problematic overlaps.

3. A nation based on Korea: Given that there are three nations based on Scandinavia, it is difficult to see how there is not even one nation based on Korea. Korea was a more important player than Japan in Far Eastern history until really the Meiji reforms in the 1800s, and it has probably a richer historical and cultural tradition than Japan (though probably not as much as the Japan-inferiority-complex-ridden Koreans claim). Other games that endeavor to include the major global civilizations of the world (e.g. the Civ series) almost always have Korea represented, and there is no reason that Dom III shouldn't.

As an aside, I find that this game is woefully lacking in representation regarding East Asia in general. It has two representative nations from a civilization that rivaled and perhaps exceeded that of the West for most of recorded history. Again, For Christ's sake, (no offense to the developers who are Scandinavians but...) Scandinavia gets 3 representatives in the Early Era of Dom III. I suppose Scandinavia has historically been more important than the entirety of the Far East put together! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

On a related issue, it seems to be insulting to conflate the entire steppe/Mongolian civilization with the Sinic civilization of China. While the histories of the two people often collided and intersected, they developed distinctively different traditions, in particular military.

4. A nation based on Egypt: Egypt was a central player in Western history at least until Actium. Like Korea, it also has a rich mythological and historical tradition. Also like Korea, it is usually represented in most games that base their sides on the global civilizations. So why not here?

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Reminder:

The famous CCG Magic: The Gathering (owned by Wizards of the Coast WOTC that is also the owner of Dungeons & Dragons) released it's first Far Eastern expansion PORTAL: THREE KINGDOMS(http://www.wizards.com/magic/p3k/p3k_edition.asp) at July. 6. 1999 that's based on "T'ien C'hi" history.

The 2nd MTG expansion of Far Eastern known as CHAMPIONS OF KAMIGAWA(http://www.wizards.com/magic/display...=1&lang=en) released at Auguest. 2004, which described a war between Human and Spirits--or, people and oni.

And shall I say that, the very ARABIAN NIGHTS is the first expansion of MTG released December 1993....

No Korea block yet.

Edit:
BTW, there's no Korea civilization in CIV3 till its first expansion.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I'd love to see Korea and Tibet/Nepal. So far, I haven't found Tibetan mythology to be that accessible online, but I've only made a minimal effort. Persia/Arabia-ala Arabian Nights, and the Vedas-for that matter would be another excellent source of nations. I think Johan and Kristoffer purposefully have not given elves/dwarves as much as other games, partially I believe because elves and dwarves are fantasy novel steriotypes who don't actually feature much in real world mythology. Duergar, domovoi, gnomes, brownes, kobolds, etc. do show up in mythology at large, but dwarves in the Tolkien-sense are pretty much purely a Norse invention, and the Heim nations have them as sorcerors, which they traditionally were. Elves on the other hand-also a Norse invention, as much as they were an invention of the Keltoi and the British, are to be found primarily as Tuatha de Danaan, the Welsh Daonie Sidhe, the (again Norse) Darkalfar-which are closer to dwarves, by the way, or as vague impressions of peoples in other cultures' mythologies who might kinda-sorta fit our image of elves, for instance, the pale people of various Amerindian cultures. I think the basic, strong, integral concept behind this game is that it's based on Pretenders inforcing their versions of mythology and reality upon the world, not taking an already existing fantasy world and having the citizens of that world fight one another. It's a little bit like the Torg RPG, if you're at all familiar with that (not likely, I admit).

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Hi Epaminondas,

Just thought I'd nitpick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

3. I wouldn't call the steppe nations conflated with China - that's only the case for late TC, which is in any case pretty heavily sinicised. The steppe nations are absent from MA, but in EA they're represented by Sauromatia (I know, from the opposite end of the Eurasian continent).

4. Isn't C'tis very loosely based on Egypt?

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Yeah, what kind of mythology do Mongolians and Siberians concern themselves with? Not to mention old Russia and the Cossac peoples? It would also be interesting to see a nation based on Gypsies, or Aryans, or the Slavic peoples. Maybe West Africa and Nubia or Central Africa and the Pygmies. We have Machaka which seems to be African, maybe Zulu in nature. I know that Nerfix made the Sar Elad nation based on the Israelites. We don't even have to rely on historical or even mythological based nations. Some really good nations could come out of Empire of the Petal Throne RPG, Talislanta RPG, or Narnia. I'm working on nations based on H.P. Lovecraft and some others. Late 19th and early 20th century authors are a fantastic source of creative material. H.P. Lovecraft and J.R.R. Tolkien are just the tip of the iceburg. C.S. Lewis and the other lesser-known "inklings", William Hope Hodgson, H. Ryder Haggard, H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, the list goes on and on. People really had great imaginations back then before television and fast food sucked our brains out and everywhere you went started looking like everywhere you've already been. Ok that's not really fair, the main issue is that, with the spread of information, our imaginary landscapes have started to resemble each other's to a greater degree than was previously possible, except where the Bible was concerned, and consequently we get elves, dwarves, dragons, wizards, magic swords, and castles ad nauseum, which is why I'm recommending for interesting (read "truly bizarre") ideas, it's a good idea to dig a bit into the past, not that the likes of Neil Gaiman, Jack Vance, Steven Spielburg, George Lucas, Harlan Ellison, Stephen King, Clive Barker, Brian Lumley, J.K. Rowling, and a host of others with fine imaginations are doing us a disservice, it's just that it's more likely now than at any other time in history that their ideas and our ideas will be recycled ones.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Elves - Tolkien came up with elves. Hoburgs are pretty close to the mythological elves, or tomte, in the early era; the armor and such they have later is different. Gnomes, from few sites, are also good repressentations of the elves of the lore.

Fair Folk were in DomII (tuatha), and will reappear in Dom3, but are currently missing.

There are many nations that have some or even all features a dwarf nation would have:

All Vanheim nations have dwarves. Svartalfar are, again, a good representation of dwarfs (the original plural), but not of dwarves (Tolkien's plural).
We also happen to have two strongly-armored, magic-weak nations in MA (Ulm, Agartha). Ulm is an easier example: strong, tough and resilient soldiers, mountains, superior metals, Master Smiths, Earth mages, forge bonus, elite guards with castle defence bonus, crossbowmen, sappers... Humans of Agartha live under ground and see in the dark; their magic and national spells and Pale One recruitables wouldn't make this purely dwarven nation, but a nation of dwarf-Agarthan alliance. Best LA Agarthan mages happen to be quite similar to Svartalfar, too.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

We could whine for days about the various mythologies that are under-represented in Dom3, but please keep in mind that the devs are still producing content for the game and have said that they have many more ideas for new nations. You may be able to satisfy yourself with mod nations that other players put out. For instance, I've made and released a complete elven nation in all it's D&D/commercial high fantasy glory if you wish to play with it. There's a semi-cliche dwarf nation there in the maps & mods sub-forum as well. Personally I am deeply impressed by the mythological knowledge the devs have compiled in this game and enjoy learning about the myths of other regions while soaking up the turn-based goodness. They have done a better job on content than any game of this genre I've played. Oh, and C'tis is something like 90% Egypt...

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

It seems I forgot to reply to the second half of Epaminonda's post... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Sauromatia is inspires by Herodotus' descriptions of the Scythians. C'tis is inspiree by Egypt and Mesopotamia.

While the majority of the historical-based nations (as opposed to fictional ones like R'lyeh) are based on European myths, there are several nations that are based on Asian or other myths. From Asia, in the Early age, there are:

Yomi (Japan), Tien Chi (China), Bandar Log (India), Lanka (India/Sri Lanka).

From Europe, there are:
Arcoscephale (Greece), Ermor (Rome/Byzantine), Ulm (German barbarians), Marverni (Celt/Gaul), Pangaea (Greece), Vanheim, Helheim and Niefelheim (Scandinavia).

There are also Sauromatia (Schythians), Caelum (Zoroastrian influences) and C'tis (Egypt). I'm not quite sure where Scythians lived, or where Zoroastrism was practised, but I think they were in Middle East or northern Africa, not Europe.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

You've answered your own question there. Elves are boring, boring, boring. Same with dwarves.

Dominions is a fantasy wargame, and I don't think that 'representation' is really an important factor in what nations are added.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

1) Tuatha are elves and will appear in alater patch. The Vanir are also elven in nature. Dominions is also not a cut-and-paste Tolkien or D&D copy, hence no traditional fantasy elves ever, and a good thing too.

2) See point about cut-and-paste above. We have all the dwarves we need with the Vanheim and Helheim.

3) See Endoperez's listing of Asian nations. Shinuyama, Yoni, Yomon, T'ien C'hi (3 eras), Kailasa, Lanka and the other Indian myhtology based stuff gives Asia more than a fair shake, but I'm not opposed to getting more from there.

4) C'tis has rather heavy Egyptian influences, possibly conflated with the Stygians from Robert E. Howard's Conan books (at least I get that feel from them, especially the LE C'tis)

If we're going to have more new nations, I'd really like to see something based on the myths from the Australian and Pacific Islands region and the Borneo and Indonesian area as well as something modeled after the myths of the North American natives. Of course, those mythologies may be harder to get hold of.

Edi

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I would love to see an arabian nights nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...niseries_2.jpg

efreets, djinnis, sultans, califs, flying carpets, maybe some sort of 40 thieves, etc.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

There's a really excellent mod based on an Amerindian culture called Haida Gwaii. I hope I spelled that right. Another one about dwarven pirates (great concept!), one about elves, one about blood elves (beautiful art here, but then the art standards of our modders are superlative all around), a Hoburg Nation (because small people got nobody to love)-Hoburgs are like halflings only feral cannibalistic psychics-or am I thinking Dark Sun? So atleast the modding community can scratch your itch for fantasy regulars.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

As for Zoroastrianism, Persia. It was/is a monotheistic good-vs-evil religion similar to Christianity that emerged a few centuries before that much more popular following. Originated by a guy named Zarathustra.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

This is an odd complaint. Dominions isn't striving to be an accurate portrayal of the world or the relevance of it's various cultures. Nor does it make the claim that any of the nations are made up of influences from just one specific nation, or that the representation is fair. It is a work of imagination and reflects whatever influences caught Kristoffers, mainly, imagination. Complaining that there isn't enough east Asian influences in dom3 is all but tantamount to writing to the Tolkien estate and asking for revised Lord of the Rings where sino elves are included. I am sure Japanese games with mythic content often draw more heavily on Japanese myth's and tales than they do on western, this is as it should be. Besides many turn of the century occultists believed the entry to Agartha to be located somehwere in Tibet, ergo Illwinter believes Tibetans to be big one eyed monsters, also Egyptians are Lizards and Persians can fly.

Edit: Btw C'tis names are mainly Assyrian, and there is some Sumerian/Babylonian influnces in there as well. I hope the Egyptians and Iraqis will survive the insult.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Now THAT. my friends, was a quality burnination. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Edi

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Personnally I'm not a fanatic of real world mythology and wouldn't be shocked by a mix with classical/d&dish-generic fantasy (I wouldn't say exact tolkienish fantasy, Middle Earth is a very specific world, always betrayed by games pretending to adapt it), but as modders do it well it would be a waste of developpers time at this point to add dwarven or elven nations (even if I think to have this kind of very classical nations would have been a good idea at release, as new players may immediatly figure what kind of nation elves, orcs or dwarves are and how they are supposed to play).

About real world inspired nations, I would like to see an arabic human nation with a djinns cult, flying carpets, etc... and an amerindian nation, more than more far-eastern ones.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

What I find original and appeling in Dom series is the use of Mytholgy (and fantasy like Lovecraft inspired nations) to combine in nations, at different degrees. I'm amazed before the work done at this. (and wouldn't be surpised if the developers were also history professors)

I think adding classicall D&D elves or Dwarves or Orks just wouldnt fit with the spirit of Dominions (and we have enough of them in evry fantasy game), even if they would make the game more appelaing for common gamers, but Dominions is more a 'niche' game. I would prefer far much like you propose nations based on Korea or others (Maybe eastern Europe country which have also a rich mythology and colorful history or Monghol hordes, or even a combination of both)

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Personnally I like this game because of the "let's include all things and some more" spirit, which is exactly the original D&D spirit (the first Deities & Demigods and Monster Manuals were IMO the first game books pillaging and mixing as many mythologies + the Cthulhu mythos and some others fantasy sources) even if of course most fans + the designers will burn me for saying that, or for considering that any game whith mages casting fireballs and priests banishing undeads has no real reason not to have elves, orcs or killer pinguins as well.

ps : Kristofer *is* a mythology professor iirc.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Ah yes the first print, first edition Deities and Demigods was great.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I have a mostly complete Corsair/Arabian Nights/Sinbad nation sketched out in my head! Alas, i lack the skills to make such a mod. Blind Magi on flying carpets escorted by faithful monkeys, sinister blood slave trading Sorcerors, a Great Bazaar that brings gems of all types from around the world, heroic Captain heroes, indolent Shah Princes, sacred Bashi-Bouzuki and Ghazi, ect. (I see the nation having no sacred magic users, but almost all military units being sacred, which might take some time to polish).

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Nitpick mode: Bashi-Bazouks were irregular, mercenary troops. Not really sacred material.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Not professor, but he teaches religion and has a degree in comparative religion.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I would have to agree an amerindian would provide a much more rich background for creating a nation.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I know, but i wasn't certain about how they should be modified in this setting. Irregular in the sense they were "inspired" to join, despite having little training? Or sacred because of their faith or willingness to go to battle? Sort of a Flagellant. Anyway i was just pulling historical names off the top of my head.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

How about some of those Tony Hillerman alternate dimension Anasazis? You could come up with a pretty cool nation based off Pueblo indian beliefs mixed with some trans-dimentional stuff. Throw a bee-gun in there, and you've got youself a cool Dominions nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I keep mulling over a Native American based mod (besides Mictlan) but I'm not sure I could do it justice. Would like to see it though!

As far as why there are three Scandinavian-themed nations, that is where the developers are from. I suspect this is why they are also the strongest nations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

For the record, Scythians were very early steppe peoples of russia. They scared the snot out of the Greeks, with free women who would amputate themselves so they could fire a bow, and for the mad raiding skills.

Now on to tradition tolken-esq factions:
Part of why I find dominions so fresh is that it DOESNT have normal cookie cutter factions and uses history. The history and creativity gets me every time.

This is part of the reason why Agartha is my current favorte faction. They are an ancient race who has the overall loss feeling of third era dwarfs/elven from Tolken but original take on the subject with what type of units they are. I think that loss is why I enjoy them so, the trying to hold on to something that will fade eventually despite the best intentions.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Scythians were amazing artisans too.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Wow, that explain a LOT of things now. The background of the game is so rich, I just lack of words as I have only played some nations and still discover new things in them, and there is so much to try...

And with real based nations and their myths, the possibilitiess of extensions, modifications, addons seems with no end.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Well, when the world's culture has ultimately culminated in creation of Dominions, it has happened in Scandinavia, not in the Far East http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

That's probably a bit misleading in sense that Scythian state existed long time before the Russians have formed as a nation. Scythians lived in what is now southern Russia (and Southern Ukraine). Tribes that eventually formed Russian nation expanded into those areas from further north much later. It is probably that they had nothing in common with Scythians. Though the sources from that era are very scarce.

We demand more hells!
 

hmmm...Tibetan Agarthans...have to process that one a bit.

The original Deities and Demigods I think had Moorcock's gods from the Elric saga too, but I could be wrong. An old DM of mine owned a copy, but we haven't talked for years.

I'm wondering now how much Agartha has to do with all those secret underground roads originating from Tibet and spanning all over the world.

It strikes me-due to the subject matter, no doubt-that along with new Pretenders and Nations, we could also do with more hells. Lots, if not all, cultures have hells, underworlds, afterlife, somewhere you go when you don't look both ways before crossing the road, but in the game only Inferno and Cocytos are represented. I'm sure plenty of game material (national summons and etc. ad infinium) can be found by exploring the possible afterlife of various cultures, and there's no reason there can't be for instance a sword that sends anyone it strikes to the Egyptian underworld to be weighed against a golden feather.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

The cliche fantasy races have very little to do with Tolkien's world. I've been thinking about doing a Noldor mod, size 3 elves complete with fear, awe, other superhuman stats and NO archers, just to drive this point home.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Thinktank made a mod about Oglala Sioux. It's a bit similar to Sauromatia, with lots of cavalry and lots of archers including some with poisoned arrows.

Here's a link to the DomII version. Post#333881

I'm not sure if it works. It uses the old way of modding national spells, for instance, replaces Tien Chi, replaces Tien Chi national spells etc.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Yeah, Tolkien was ripped off by any number of hack*cough*authors, few of which had the creative and researching abilities to encompass the depth and breadth of Tolkien's Middle Earth. D&D who borrowed heavily from Tolkien and a great number of other authors perpetuated this to a degree, and, along with myriad other influences, managed to create a cultural "model" of a "typical fantasy world". Tolkien's elves, dwarves, and dragons don't themselves fit their own steriotypes. Tolkien's elves are more like biblical angels than they are anything else-for instance, they come from Tolkien's version of heaven and they can be corrupted (ala fallen angels) into orcs, while dwarves use swords and magic as often as axes and technology, and they were the very first race, and dragons were basically manufactured by Morgoth as war-machines.

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I'd love to see a nation based on the aboriginal dreamtime myth.

It would also be interesting to have a few nations which bucked the general idea of Dominions. How about a nation of athiests - no priests, but lands are immune to enemy dominion (naturally, their own dominion would be strength 0).

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Mod commands are not far to be able to make this kind of nation (you can use dying dominion like Mictlan, but without allowing blood sacrifices, sloth immune nations too, but there aren't commands to make a nation immune to other dominions effects, you can also give this nation lots of iconoclast reducing the dominions ; the only problem is : without an awake pretender the atheist nation will lose in the beginning of turn 2).

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Well, you could still spread the faith in atheism, haven't you seen Southpark recently? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif (specifically the Wii episodes)

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Heh, I saw Fellowship of the Ring in theaters with someone who wasn't familiar with Tolkien. After the movie she commented that it seemed awfully derivative and just like every generic fantasy.

I was reminded of the quote about the student who didn't see what was special about Shakespeare, since all he did was string a bunch of famous quotations together...

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

I wonder what would be a pretender for such nations. Nobody would believe in him... Maybe they shouldn't even have a pretender. And no prophet, of course... With such setup they would probably need some pretty mighty mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Possible missing nations in Dom III?
 

Could be a Philosopher. Or a Horror (now there's an idea - a nation of horrors....). Perhaps even an anti-pretender or doomsday cult style of thing (believers of the Pancreator who are convinced that the world is going to end with his death). Then again, many of the Pretenders themselves are former servants of the Pancreator - perhaps an entire race of such beings exist. They would have no reason to worship any of the pretenders, since in their eyes they'd be equals.