Where are the Civilians?
 

Hi guys,
While I was playing the other day, I thought to myself, "Something is missing". What I realized was that there are only military ships controled by ME or my ministers. Reminds me of our current presence in space. Am I to assume that trade with other empires happens through magic, or do unseen ships move about the galaxy without my protection.
Trade routes and other civilian ships would greatly increase the deapth of the game.
Another trait i believe you should be aloud to choose when establishing your race is their economic and political model. Give different styles bonuses like the "Scientists, Zeolots....et al" do. Make different styles conflict with each other. Create your basic Capitalist vs. Socialist problems on a galactic scale.
Oh yeah, I don't know who packed my Colony ship, but they sure the hell did a great job by magically fitting 4 million people in that tiny *** ship. Musta been that Honey I shrank the kids tech they forgot to mention.
Expecially for how cheap a colony ship is vs. the size of one to fit that many people into it.
What's your guess on how they fit them in on a massive cargo ship? I'm thinking similar to potatoes in a big room. Or maybe some Voyager style magic fix'n.
I prefer the way the new Stars! Super Nova handles population. Once a colony is established, civilians find their own ways to the colony. Instead of like cattle, could be influenced by their political model. Your basic capitalist government has little countrol of where the population goes aside from troops, while your Soup Nazi Government tells you where and when to go.
Just thinking out loud,
Sorry fo the long topic!

Steve

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Good post. I've been bleating about population handling for a while now, especially automatic migration. I guess I ought to mail my thoughts to MM somwhen...

I'm also uncomfortable with the huge numbers of people you can so easily move from place to place, but the consequncs to the play balance if it were changed aren't worth thinking about.

I also like your thoughts on that other post thread, about "counting heads" within a ship's crew: This would be a really nice feature, and would give you incentive to look after your ships a little better. Ships with not enough crew would become less and less effective, as would ships with too many crew & not enough crew quarters. Space yard ships would suddenly need loads and loads of crew quarters if they wanted to build ships in deep space, although they could be cryogenically packed in the same way as colonists (ie 5 million pr Kt).
Abandoning / destroying ships in order to merge crews would also add an intresting element to the game.

Unfortunately it would require *huge* hard code changes by MM to implement...

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

I can understand you views.
But...because SE4 is a game not a simulator, I really don't care about how realistic, is the way to move the population.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

They're desperately hiding from certain evil people who would not hesitate a moment to obliterate a colony of eight billion people, let alone a stray, helpless ship with mere millions... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Hey, first time poster and I have had some thoughts about population I would like to share

When ever you build a spaceport on a planet it should create a line similar to the lines used in a ships path- maybe of a different color between the new spaceport world and the nearest spaceport world. These would be shipping lanes. When you want to transfere population or cargo between worlds simply hit the transfere button and then in the transfere cargo window there should be an off world option and then you could select any other spaceport world. Then after you have sent whatever you want to send a transport will magicly appear (each planet would have a different number of transport ships depending on it's population at minimun maybe 1 and at max maybe 5 or 10) and begin transporting to wherever you sent cargo. Then it would make the journey to wherever the cargo was headed unload it and make the return journey. It would continue to make trips till all the cargo selected has been moved.

You could also move fighters, satelites, mines, etc in this same way.

Trade between empires would be handled in much the same way. When you enacted a treaty a transport lane would be drawn between the two empires closest spaceport planets. Then every turn a fleet of a certain size (depending on the number of resources being trated) would travel between the two worlds. Every turn another fleet would be sent out.

Ships in orbit around a spaceport world could be given the order "Protect shippping lanes" or something and whenever a transport ship was sent out it would escort it to and from wherever it was going.

Sorry fot the length of the post.

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Captain, I found your pants.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Then after you have sent whatever you want to send a transport will magicly appear (each planet would have a different number of transport ships depending on it's population at minimun maybe 1 and at max maybe 5 or 10) and begin transporting to wherever you sent cargo. Then it would make the journey to wherever the cargo was headed unload it and make the return journey. It would continue to make trips till all the cargo selected has been moved....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds a lot like a Minister... However for those micro-management 'masochists' out there, more detail features are a good thing. Of course with the prerequisite ministers and On/Off buttons.....

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

I would be in favor of more detail and realism, as long as it's all automatic. I am micromanged up to here already. I have given up on getting the ministers to work right.

The idea about auto transfer of pop over time from homeworlds to colonies sounds cool. I would prefer it to be invisible.

Computer controlled commercial transports flitting about would be kind of neat too. Make them all automated. I could forbid them to go into certain systems if I want, but not really control where they go. Also they don't really have to do anything visible like transfer cargo. They would just be part of the background. Zipping back and forth between spaceports. If you don't protect them and they get blown up you would take a hit in resource production empire wide. Would make blockades seem more reasonable.

Make them run from enemy ships, and blow up if they take any damage at all.

Give my empire a small economic boost if I kill one of my enemies', and vice versa.

All this would be cool, but please don't give me anything more to do. I have my hands full now.

If I want to move sats or mines, I will still have to build a transport the old way and give it orders.

Geo

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

I think automatic population movement without killable transports would be unbalancing and cheesy. Ditto, except moreso, for mines, WPs, and sats.

Phoenix-D

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Add me to the list of micro-management masochists. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

I, for one, think that even with intelligence attacks, planet blockades and the occasional transport and colony ship raid it's still too hard to fool with an enemy's supply lines. Even the helpful little invisible merchant fleets that distribute resource points are a little too abstract for me -- I want ways to blow them up and (more importantly) steal them!

More detail! More hard choices! More confusion! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

&lt;edit: whoops. typo.&gt;

[This message has been edited by Droplede (edited 01 June 2001).]

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Back in Jan, I posted ideas about the Population.

Check out this link: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/For...ML/000938.html

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
When ever you build a spaceport on a planet it should create a line similar to the lines used in a ships path- maybe of a different color between the new spaceport world and the nearest spaceport world. These would be shipping lanes. When you want to transfere population or cargo between worlds simply hit the transfere button and then in the transfere cargo window there should be an off world option and then you could select any other spaceport world. Then after you have sent whatever you want to send a transport will magicly appear (each planet would have a different number of transport ships depending on it's population at minimun maybe 1 and at max maybe 5 or 10) and begin transporting to wherever you sent cargo. Then it would make the journey to wherever the cargo was headed unload it and make the return journey. It would continue to make trips till all the cargo selected has been moved.

You could also move fighters, satelites, mines, etc in this same way.

Trade between empires would be handled in much the same way. When you enacted a treaty a transport lane would be drawn between the two empires closest spaceport planets. Then every turn a fleet of a certain size (depending on the number of resources being trated) would travel between the two worlds. Every turn another fleet would be sent out.

Ships in orbit around a spaceport world could be given the order "Protect shippping lanes" or something and whenever a transport ship was sent out it would escort it to and from wherever it was going.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this. It's a bit like the trade routes system in Call to Power. When a route is created, a line is between the two cities, and you can pirate the route by moving a ship onto it and hitting the right command. This destroys the route entirely and gives you money.

I think the idea of individual ships/convoys moving along the route is better than the CtP system as you can raid it indefinately or have ships provide escort. There is no real way to defend against piracy in CtP.

I also don't think this would be *TOO* hard to implement. It would at least require:

-adding a list of spaceports to the cargo transfer window
-adding code to assign the correct number of transports to move the desired cargo
-creating the freighter fleet in the game screen and giving it automatic Move to X,Y and Drop Cargo orders. You should be able to add other ships to this fleet as escorts
-limiting the convoy's movement to shipping lane sectors
-restrict the player from altering convoy orders (even if the fleet is attacked, it should stay on the shipping lane and continue moving next turn)

How would the freighters be designed? Maybe we could use the transport ship hulls, and add a new freighter component (max of 1 per transport, not allowed on any other hull), which would decrease the maintenance cost considerably as well as marking the design as a freighter and therefore making it available to the spaceports. These ships would not have a build time, as we can assume that many of them are already in service and that the government is just contracting a few to move something.

I have no problem with using this to move fighters/mines/etc. because:

-You can only ship them to planets with spaceports. You have to use military transports (what we have now) to get them to the remote planets and bases.
-Since the shipping lanes are so visible (a yellow line that all players can see), anybody can come along and blow up your convoy carrying your expensive fighters off to the front. They could even hide in nearby storms and wait for a convoy to show up. This would actually give storms a reason to exist, as they just kinda sit there and get ignored now.

This whole system would make deep penetration raids MUCH more interesting and useful. Right now all you can do is send a cloaked ship in to bLast some colony ships, or at best equip it with Smart Bombs and bomb planets. So many planets have weapon platforms that this will hardly ever work, and you don't know which ones have spaceports anyway.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

You can do a lot more if you equip your 'deep penetration' raider with plague bombs. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Just one hit and the planet will become useless to your enemy within a few turns. Provided he hasn't got a medical bay close at hand. There's my second mention of plague bombs in as many Posts.

The rest of the ideas here are very interesting. Having to represent ALL of the ships carrying trade around would be a nightmare. It's completely impractical. SE is a huge game already and full simulation on the scale we're playing is just not possible. I agree that the problem of protecting your logistics is glossed over in SE IV, but the reason is clear. So, 'convoy' protection situations would have to be clearly defined to certain circumstanes.

Having a system akin to the MOO II system where you buy abstract 'merchant fleets' might be doable. Food is not considered in SE IV, but if the total volume of resources produced by your empire required a certain number of merchant ships per so many thousands of of points of resources you'd have a decent equivalent. When you want to send something like population from one planet to another, you have to 'draft' some of that fleet and it is not available for regular duties. This could result in a temporary loss of resources just like a blockade or destruction of a space port.

With this system it MIGHT be possible to have an abstract 'fleet' of merchant ships become a real fleet of transports that your ships have to protect in certain situations. Maybe when ships attack a planet containing a space port? If there were 'merchant ships' carrying resources -- that might be lost! -- present whenever a planetary space port was attacked it would add some importance to space port planets.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

I don't think there should be any maintance cost for murchant fleets. If it's based on any type of economic model, the only reason there would be murchants is if their were a profit! The 'owner' of the ship would be responsible for upkeep. Unless you got into the different economic models that I mentioned before (example: Communism-government owned ships, and Capitalism-murchant owned ships).
I don't really like the idea that you must build the populations ships, to much MM. What would be next, designing the layout of their colonies for 40 planets? No thanks!
I think trade should be great enough to partially support your protectorate fleet definately. Make it worth doing, not just a feature in the game to forget about.
The population of a planet should dictate how many ships are murchant ships per planet, the planet should also be required to have a fleet yard (to build the ships) and the space port. Maybe even a resupply station (to give the facility more use and importance).
I don't know if I like the idea of the ships shown on the map or not. The map would need some sort of filter to hide particular types of ships.
As the game progresses, I'd much rather it focus on a more realistic game play style, rather than what seems like playing chess with options.
Any and all features should definately be allocated in the ministers dialog weather or not you want to control a certain aspect of the game, some players prefer different levels of control over their game!

Steve

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

I personally hope this level of detail would be optional. I, for one, feel it would take away the fun of the game. It already has enough to keep track of and I feel (imho) that this much detail would take away the joy of playing. Just my opinion http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jason2

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

How about handling population similar Sims in SimCity

population goes where it wants- aboard civilian starships and such

alien attributes could be given to that population by altering the sim code in one way or another

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

When I move population, I want it to stay put! I move to get construction rate and productivity up. The only thing I would like to see is automatic move of new population from planets at maximum population already. Now THAT would be nice!

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Interesting ideas about the shipping lanes and etc. I personally wish you could raid enemy shipping to disrupt resource allocation and resuuply of their forward forces. But how do you design a shipping lane map/graph for a race with the Natural Merchant ability since they have no need for space ports?

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

I'm glad somebody liked my idea.

Normally, unless you were moving something along the shipping lanes (pop, fighters, mines, etc.) they would just appear to be lines. If you moved something it would use your largest available transport picture to represent the movement of stuff.

To raid shipping lanes is all one would have to do is place a ship along the lanes and select a "Raid" option. Then every turn the resources produced by the system would be transfered from you empire to theirs.

Making resupply depots in that system useless would be an excellent idea, I think.

(In reality this system requires no extra work by the player, in fact it would simplify things, imagine no longer needing to have all those useless transports lying around to move you population and cargo, instead, just transfere them via the shipping lanes)

A natural merchant race (space port on every planet) would get kind of crowded with lines.

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Captain, I found your pants.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Normally, unless you were moving something along the shipping lanes (pop, fighters, mines, etc.) they would just appear to be lines. If you moved something it would use your largest available transport picture to represent the movement of stuff.

To raid shipping lanes is all one would have to do is place a ship along the lanes and select a "Raid" option. Then every turn the resources produced by the system would be transfered from you empire to theirs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be a good idea to be able to toggle the lines on or off to keep the display from getting too cluttered.

I don't think the Raid option should be an automatic perfect success; you should only get a small percentage of the trade per raider. The cargo capacity of the raider should be a factor as well; you can't assume that you'll capture the traders intact and have them haul the booty home for you.

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Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

If this "supply lines" concept were implemented I sure hope you'd have the option to EDIT those lines! The default movement routines can make some pretty stupid choices. Sending merchants through a black hole system, for example... Also, would you get a "supply line" that ends in a crazy scrawl at a warp point where an enemy ship happened to be sitting when it was automatically drawn? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Being able to change the route would be essential.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Imagine the intelligence operations you could have with trade routes!

Your ignorant neighbour is moving some WP and fighters from one of his homeworlds to one of his fringe colonies. When u successfully perform a 'Trade Route Mimic' on them, and steal his new toys, depriving him of defences and possibly picking up some new weapons designs http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Fixed trade routes might not be all bad. Lots of trade routes in history we fixed by geography or the goods being carried, so they are not totally unrealistic. They would also be something you just have to live with, just like getting good planets and bad planets.

These routes might have automatic ships going on them, which you don't control, but that other people can raid. Similar to the situation where cops have to protect citizens, who do pretty much what they want. This allows for raiding, gives you something else to worry about, but still doesn't need too much micro-managing. I don't need more micro managing, I do enough of that in real life.

Someone mentioned realism. Find me a population that grows (through births) at 20% a year, anywhere in the world at any stage of history. Kenya managed 4% for quite a while in the 70's and 80's and I hear that Rwanda has really been jumping (odd psycological reaction to the genocide) but nothing like our races do in SE4. This is not a complaint, just an observation at some of the things that have been done to make the game playable. And things that made is sooo very playable.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:

I don't think the Raid option should be an automatic perfect success; you should only get a small percentage of the trade per raider. The cargo capacity of the raider should be a factor as well; you can't assume that you'll capture the traders intact and have them haul the booty home for you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree I suggested a raid ability be included in SEV if possible. I thought that the raiders success should be influenced by the speed of their ships, their sensor capability, stealthing/cloaking ability, and crew quality. I also thought the targetted player should be able to possibly defend his convoys with either escorts or placing ships or fighters in key systems with orders to intercept raiders/pirates. So if they detected a raiding force or a convoy was attacked there would be a chance for them to engage the raiders.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

The convoy idea could be expanded a bit to make remote mining more useful. Rather than mining reducing an asteroid field's value by a percentage point per turn per ship/base, have asteroid fields always use the "finite resources" settings. Then, rather than automatically getting the resources from those mines, the resources have to be transported back to a spaceport (of course, resources should also be able to be stored at the asteroid field until a convoy comes by). I'm not certain what to do about planets, since eventually a player may want to colonize a planet that's been remotely mined. Maybe the reduction per turn per ship/base should be changed to a reduction per YEAR per COMPONENT.

Re: Where are the Civilians?
 

Letting part of the resources from a blockaded planet -- or even system if it's the space part planet -- does make some sense. But allowing for individual ships carrying resources from one point to another is still going to be far too much detail in a game of this scale. The option I suggested, that some random 'freighters' appear when you attack a planet with a space port, is about as far as it can reasonably go. For remote miners, you might be able to add a space port 'component' or some other component to represent shipment facilities. Requiring the presence of one of these on the same ship or in the same sector where the mining is occuring would offer some logistics problems. Exspecially if you could 'blockade' it like a planet. Even if you have defenders strong enough to hold off the attacker, their presence could still cost you the resources.