Hidden in Snow
 

Hidden in Snow summon a tribe of "up to 25" unfrozen + a leader + up to 2 mages but it seems some "tribes" are really small : last time I had only the leader, 3 unfrozens + 3 unfrozen warriors and 0 mage, not a good deal for 55 gems.

I wonder if the effect is decreasing with use (it was my third hidden in snow in the same province in 3 turns, it may be logical if there are no unfrozen left to be raised), season based (spell casted in early winter) or 100% random ?

In all cases hidden in snow looks like a not very useful spell for the nations able to use it, except if you get an unfrozen mage with good earth magic (if you can cast hidden in snow, you already have water + death mages, and the units are inferior to the sea trolls you can have for the same price, especially when the number of trolls is guaranteed ; but hidden in snow remain a good spell to get mages having access to earth magic with a non earth nation).

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Not cast this spell but does lvl of casting mage have anything to do with it? A lvl 7D mage, casting pale riders gets 33 pale riders, +13 more than normal. Anywhere in the manual you see a + sign means more effects for a higher lvl than needed to cast mage.

I bet casting it in winter is better than in summer (or possibly vice versa in this case), Illwinter seem to like influencing alot of effects by seasons.

Casting some spells with different scales/seasons can result in some unusual results now and again.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I cast it twice. Once, I got 1 chieftain, 5 warriors and about 15 regular unfrozens, which I found pitiful. On the second casting (other game), I got a chieftain, 5 warriors and 7 regulars, 2 mages (E2D1 and E2W2D2 if I recall well). The last mage is good, but the spell's still overly expensive and random in my opinion.
I haven't made any attempt to reproduce casting by season/mage/number of spells. I somehow doubt the number of castings has an effect, since these aren't unique, but I may be wrong.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Only D1 is needed to cast Hidden in Snow, so the mages provide both Earth and Death.

There isn't a + in the description. It's rather strange, really, only reading as "up to 25" Unfrozen and "up to 2" Unfrozen Mages. It's also missing the number of Unfrozen Warriors, and their stats.

I can't really say what spells are affected by seasons and what aren't, but if the description and the manual doesn't mention anything, it should be asked about and something should be added either to the spell's description or to the manual.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I suspect the Cold scale and season could have an effect, but that's just intuition, it needs to be tested.

BTW, glad to find here so many Frenchies from Cyberstratege site ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Hey, since some of the regulars there are complaining that we're taking too much space, we have to find a refuge here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

The results are not guaranteed, but it can be an extremely good deal. My two recent castings yielded:

Undead Commander, Mage (W1E3D2), Mage (W2E1D1), 25 unfrozen)

Undead Commander, Mage (W3E1D2), Mage (W1E2D3), 17 unfrozen)

This is a W3D1 spell (which one could easily boost up a W2D1 or even W1D1 caster too... e.g. a Spectral Mage which is D3, so e.g. anyone with D2 and a skull staff). So it gets you mages up to E3 and possibly from D1 to D3, and also combined into a single caster so you can get to spells like Streams From Hades, Catoblepas, Blight, Claymen, Ghost Ship, Leviathan, forge Jade Armor, etc...

The plain fighting ability is worthwhile, too. Mixed with a bunch of regular undead, the troops' cold aura alone could be a force that could be quite potent simply by freezing enemies.

In other words, it can open up lots of useful paths and combinations, and other good things, so it is worth it, just maybe not always.

PvK

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I've never tried this spell, but the sea trolls people seem to be comparing it with are distinctly mediocre in battle. They have good hp, but low prot, high size and low def make them quite vulnerable, and high size & low attack makes them poor at dishing out damage too.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Unfrozen mages are automatically D1 and have 8 additional randoms each at 50%. The randoms are D, D, E, E, E, W, W, W, so if you got extraordinarily lucky, you could get a D3E3W3 mage out of it. The chance for that is 1/256, but even a lesser unfrozen mage can easily be good. If it has only one or two picks besides the first D, it's a pitiful one.

Edi

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Oh, sea trolls. Don't get me started. The minimum they need is attack 10 or 11 and weapon 29 (claw) instead of fist. Then they would be useful something other than just taking hits.

Edi

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I use it as thematic support for my LE Atlantis games. It's amazing just for that.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Very, very useful with earthquake thou...

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Sea trolls has good HP and they regenerate, making them great meat shields, and useful in tiring out an enemy army. Although I prefer the normal trolls because they come with an earth mage capable of casting curse of stones to further tire the enemy out, the sea trolls can go underwater, which is a great tool if you're a land nation.

Besides, I mostly cast Sea trolls to collect sea kings and horde water gems. The other trolls I send to the front line to die as fast as possible since they cost a lot of maintenance.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

45 waters gems for just on commander (+1 gem / season) ?

It will be profitable only after 45 turns, not very effective IMHO

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

45 months to replay the investment cost? Gosh, that is 3.75 years, I wish I could get the apartments I bought to pay themselves off that fast, it is a great deal…

However, back to the game, it is a long pay off period. However, you do also get the mage and trolls, who you should be able to use to take new provinces and recover your investment faster. If they can get a single province with a single gem site, it is only 22 months to recover costs in gems alone, but that would also give you gold income as well. If they are your first gateway to ocean provinces, they will pay you back many times over However, if you are just doing it for gem income, I am not so sure it is the best value.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Not only do you get the gem cost back (isn't it 55 gems?), which is easily done in a large game of back and forth battles, but you also get a ton of regenerating meat shields for your armies... and they can go into water.

If you're already an aquatic nation, then sea trolls might not be as great, but if you're not, they are a great deal.

You tell me, what other easy summon actually gives you back it's gem cost? Even if it doesn't fully return it's initial cost, everyturn that goes by with the sea king alive, the gem cost of the summon is effectively reduced by one.

If you're playing a quick rush style game, you might never even get the spell researched, so there's no point talking about it. If you're playing a medium game, then sea trolls can be a very cheap summon if you split the kings out (to refund yourself and cast more later). In a long game, the kings work like clam shells for pearls. Sure, they aren't as effective, but with the meat shield involved, I don't see how you can say that it's not a good investment.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Maybe you got that response because you initially seemed to suggest suiciding the trolls so you don't have to pay upkeep for them and basically using the spell entirely to get more gems via the kings.

I also find it hard to see how going for kings to get more gems makes sense. You'd have to be playing a huuuuge game for 45/55 turns to be a sensible amount of time to wait. If you have the time and resources to set something like that up my feeling is that you could have done a thousand other more effective things to help you win instead.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

IMO The sea king spell is ok, because the king himself if a very good commander. That's not what I'm criticising... but the regular sea troll unit is just rubbish. I think they're only worth using if you need amphibious troops and can't get the (dramatically better) kydnides. Otherwise, I just throw them in an army to bulk it out and let them die.
The problem is their large size. When 1 sea troll is fighting 3 infantry then att9, def9, prot8 doesn't cut it. They tend to die if they're matched up in front line combat against any reasonable force, and I've often seen them rout fairly fast too. They are ok against independents and they could be useful if you plan on dealing loads of damage with mages or missiles and just want them to take damage for a few turns. Even then, I'd prefer, say, indep heavy infantry but the trolls can go underwater and you might have a bunch hanging around from the king summon.

Does anyone actually use the 1-gem sea troll summon though? Anyone rate sea trolls without the king?

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Sea trolls are great really, as chaff. High hp regenerating unit. Just don't expect them to do any damage. They are there to soak up the enemies melee so you can do artillery damage.

If that is not your main advantage, other summons may be better.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Deleted.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

That's a ... brilliant ... and evil idea! Thanks muchly, Frank! My current Dom3 game is almost over, and I just preached Oceania out of existence, but that will be an excellent point to remember for a future game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I do when I have more water gems than I know what to do with, but not enough to blow on more kings without breaking the bank (and idle water mages). I use them just to fill up squads for breaking into the seas. Actually, that was more in Dom2, and not so much now in Dom3.

I usually use the sea trolls to guard the decked out, gem generating kings. The kings just sit back with a water elemental spawning bottle each and cast frozen heart, and/or sharks.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I generally don't use the 1-gem sea troll summon, mainly because it takes forever to get anything going with it. The problem is that the trolls cost a lot of maintenance, so while you are building up, you're paying a fortune that could be used elsewhere. I'd much rather save the gems for sea king's court, even if it doesn't seem as efficient cost wise at first...

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Any more experiences to report with this spell (the Unfrozen one, not the Sea Troll one)? Do heat/cold scales and/or season effect it? If so, in which way? Anything else anyone has noticed?

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I remember casting this spell quite a bit in one of my LA Atlantis single player games. Summer time always gave best results.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

I haven't tried to see a pattern, but I'm almost always very happy with what I've received, especially when I don't have water-death-earth mages, and/or need a good undead commander. I have cold/magic/luck scales and am casting at an Enchantment site.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Maybe I'll try this again, but last time I cast it I swore it off for good. In addition to some undead troops (not the hardest thing to come by), I got exactly 1 mage, and his paths: DD. Thanks to this thread I see that such a crummy return was very unlikely, but it'll still take me some time to get over the sting of being so righteously gyped out of 55 gems.

Re: Hidden in Snow
 

Yep, the one time I cast it I got similar results and promptly filed this one into the "completely useless for the price" spells category. Guess I'll have to try it again.