SEV Recommend?
 

Hi
I'm either ordering dominions 3 or SEV..IS SEV challenging?...The AI I mean.....Fun.I'm not talking of waiting for future mods..I mean how is the game as is with latest patches?

thanks..Tom

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Bad, unfortunately( if you're looking for a challenge). I'd go for Dominions and wait a few months before getting SEV.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

I have both games but at the moment I'm finding SEV with balance mod much the better game.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

The game is great with it's current patches and the balance mod, which has largely replaced the stock rules.

I've only played dominions 2 but I have played SEV. It seems like the AI is about equivalent, each AI will build the best available stuff it can and throw it at you without any real strategies. Both can kick your *** if your new but any real tactics will take it apart. The real fun and challenge, the meat and potatoes of both games is going against real people in PBEM or PBW.

SEV has a bigger scale to it, more territories, each territory is bigger, more things to build, more ships to build, bigger tech tree, and more flexibility in the individual ships, it can lead to more micro management, but if you use the hotkeys, the empire management menus that list all your ships and planets side by side and play with the ministers it is more then manageable.

In Dom 2 the "world" is much simpler, it's divided into territories like a Risk map. You build fortresses to defend a territory, Temples to spread the word of your pretender and Labs to research magicks. Each nation gets it's own type of units that can be equipped with custom weapons. There's like 6 or 7 branches to the tech tree, and they are linear. You move your units from province to province conquering as you go.

IMO it's the combat where SEV takes Dom2(and maybe 3) In SEV you order your ships and they do exactly as ordered, even if you are using the strategic AI they do as outlined. In Dom 2 the computer is making choices based on the outlined strategies but the units themselves don't always get with the program because of morale, and random checks and rolls so you'll have an entire army retreat because 1 guy got killed, even though you outnumber them you still lose. I get why they do this and it makes for some interesting tactics but I just like the way SEV handles it's space combat. Also SEV has some diplomatic options in the way of alliances, treaties and trade, even migration of alien races. Dom is more about pure conquest.

Also if you do invest in SEV and wait for the future mods and AI, there are players working on making it better, there will be new rules to play with, AI to beat, refreshing ideas implemented into the game. I'm not sure if Dom3 allows AI modding.

Go SEV if you want total control over every detail of your empire, it's units and just a bigger 'vers to play in. Go Dom2/3 if you want faster paced combat oriented play.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Dom 3 for me.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

I have SEV, not Dom 3. I couldn't recommend SEV to anyone right now.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

I have both and I would say if you were gonna buy one right now it should be Dom3. SE5 has alot of room to improve...

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

It all depends on the person. As you can see, some here are saying go for SEV, some say that they wouldn't recommend SEV as it is now (but it should get better, etc), some say go for Dom3... I personally prefer Dom3 at this time, but I haven't really put much time into either game yet. Perhaps a total of 20 hours over two months for Dom3, and about 3 hours combined with SEV demo and release version. Part of the consideration will likely be that Dom3 is much pricier than SEV, but I would say that Dom3 is the more complete game. SEV is getting there, and it was still fun when I played it, but since I was already familiar with SEIV AI, it wasn't really challenging.

Probably the best indicator for you would be to download the demos for both games, and give them a spin. It should give you the general feel of each game, which should make the choice a little easier. But the demos each leave out probably the biggest part of what makes each game so cool: for Dom3, the demo does not have the 300-something page manual describing nearly everything in the game; for SEV, the demo does not allow mods, which gives the series much of its balance and replayability.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Dom 3. I would recommend SE5 only after it gets patched to a good state, which I think will happen eventually. Personally I'm betting it takes about a year before I'll want to really get into it, due mainly to all the UI tedium and AI weakness.

PvK

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Dom3!

Se5 might seem to be an ok game if you never played Se4, otherwise expect huge frustration and disapointment.


Hmm, can anyone make a SE5 mod for Dom3?

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Well, if it's about ground combat...

Hmm. I guess you could also make a map where the provinces are planets, and have oceans be space... er, hmm, ya, maybe you could! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

PvK

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Make it mostly tiny islands, some with small secondary provinces/moons connected to them. Maybe some hot, hostile star provinces.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

At this point Dom3 has the better AI and is a really good game to play. However, SE V offers impressive 3d type space combat, and loads of depth.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

I'd recommend SE4 over both of them, hands down.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

What Fyron said; SEIV uber alles at the moment.

Here's a question, can anyone make an SEIV mod for SEV? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

I just ordered SEV. Can't find a strategy guide, and now I find this thread...

Imperator Fyron, SJ, Atrocities, PvK, old timers all, are not hot about it????

I hope the Balance MOD makes it likeable.

Poor AI: Damn, I don't have time for PBW.

Any suggestions?

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

SE5 adds some great new gameplay features to the series, in theory. In practice, the UI and AI and bug-lessness haven't caught up, so I'm waiting for lots of patch improvements before I try to really get into it. Meanwhile, I'm hoping it's a nice preview of things that will work well in future.

My guess is I will start wanting to play SE5 in about a year, assuming patches fix the UI, AI and other problems that can't be modded at Malfador's usual industrious rate. It also seems like very little effort was made to balance the stock techs (they seem far less balanced than SE4 even), so I expect a balancing mod will also always be wanted for SE5, but thankfully that task is already in capable fan hands.

Meanwhile, Dominions 3 is a solid release, and personally I like it at least as much as I like Space Empires. But it's a different kind of game, so not all SE fans will like Dominions (e.g. Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

PvK

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Hello, welcome back.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Hi narf! Your always a funny criter.

I no longer have Internet, cable or TV at home.
I gave it all up for my cute little flexible yoga teacher.
I get to game once in a while.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

...Simple solution: Hook her on gaming. Once you're both geeks, you don't have to give up anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Thanks for this thread. I never looked closely at the other shrapnel titles, they looked more like worldwar titles for veterans to me. I was not aware of Dom 3 being a fantasy strategy game with magic. Very interesting!

So the AI is good for singleplayer gaming you say?

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Well, let's just say Dominions 3 is a much simpler game for the AI to play( move troops from one sector to another and recruit troops, basically), and as such it gives competition. The lack of diplomacy, i.e. full war as soon as you meet, adds to this as well.

Other than that I'd say SE V is by far a better game, or at least it will be when it's completed. I don't care too much for the general gameplay of Dominions, it's the smaller features( item making, spells, etc.) that makes that game fun to me.

Re: SEV Recommend?
 

Narf,

Not a chance of that. She has a violence phobia. Understandable though. She is Serbian and her family has suffered Nazis, Commies, Moslems, ethnic violence, and Bill Clinton.

Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Eleven Ways to Help the AI (besides "cheats" like giving them unfair resource advantages, refusing to use certain weapons, abandoning all but one planet at startup, etc.):
1) Start with 10 good planets and high resources. Or 5 good planets and medium tech level. (AI is weakest in early game development.)
2) Don't make the galaxy too large. (AI doesn't expand as intelligently as humans.)
3) Make all AI players be aggressive xenophobic warmongers. (AI doesn't do diplomacy as well as humans.)
4) Don't choose any special racial techs for yourself.
5) Scramble the AI players (so you don't know what to expect when you first go to battle).
6) Turn off major disasters. (AIs don't know how to handle things like an impending supernova.)
7) Don't use galaxies that have lots of planet-less systems (which can stop AI expansion and agression).
8) Always use either strategic combat or automatic tactical combat. (This removes a huge advantage for human players over the AI, and prepares you for PBW.)
9) Use the option that gives everyone continuous full knowledge of every place they've ever explored. (This helps AI, which has no memory.)
10) Lower the setting that triggers Mega-Evil Empire (which causes all the AIs to ally with each other and gang up on you).
11) Set a strict limit on the amount of time you can spend on any one turn. Use a 3-minute egg timer. Once it runs out, you MUST end your turn. (Also a good rule for hot-seat play.)

When I do these things, the AI gives me a fun game. I still always win, but I like that.

If I want a real challenge, I can (additionally) use some of the cheats mentioned at the top. Role-playing is also quite fun and challenging. Examples:
1) Set MEE very low, and pretend to be an insane race intent on wiping out all other races. Never invade planets or capture ships; glass them. You might even consider blowing up their systems entirely to wipe out all traces of them.
2) Conversely, keep standard MEE, keep all AI players at standard settings, and pretend to be a dovish race that tries as hard as possible to avoid conflict (while trying to unite everyone under your peaceful rule). Never ever glass any colony, and concentrate on capturing or disabling enemy ships. You'll have to make and keep powerful allies to prevent triggering MEE.
3) Pretend to have a religious taboo against using warp points. Only give up this taboo when you can create your own.
4) Pretend to have limited authority. Use AI ministers to handle aspects of your empire over which you have no direct control.
5) Pretend that your empire has term limits that cause you to lose all political power for X years after serving 2X years as emperor. So alternate 24X turns of micromanagement with 12X turns of full minister control. People are SO fickle!
6) Play normally until you've triggered MEE, then switch sides. Now you are trying to rally the rag-tag rebels against the MEE! (Actually, I've always had MEE off when I did this. It is possible that, once MEE is triggered, the AIs would unite against the human player regardless of which empire he is playing. That would be a wacko bug!)

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

I truly wish I could recommend SEV. I've been trying to 'get into it' off and on for the last few months. But it just doesnt grab me. It feels glacial compared to SEIV and the interface woes dont really help. I find myself playing the first 30-40 turns and then getting bored and saving it and not coming back. Then, a few weeks later I'll fire it up again, start a new game and repeat the cycle.

I've tried the Balance Mod (which is excellent work) but there is still something missing from SE5. I shudder to think about trying to play Stock. I cant put my finger on whatever it is about SE5 that just doesnt do it for me. I played SE4 to DEATH and would still be playing it now if the later patches hadn't broken TCP/IP play. The fact that SE5 also apparently doesnt work via TCP/IP is another turn-off as that was my group's preferred way of playing SE4.

Like PvK, I'm hoping that it eventually sorts itself out. There appears to be a lot of potential here. But at the moment, playing SE5 seems more like work and less like fun. I'm hoping some enterprising modders save the game much the way mods like Devnull and whatnot did for me for SE4. The only downside here is that modding SE5 seems to be a heck of a lot more complicated so I'm unlikely to do it myself, again unlike SE4 where I worked on my custom mod for years.

I'll keep trying SE5 though. With each patch and Balance Mod revision I usually fire it up and play again. Hopefully one day it will grab me and I'll be able to recommend it whole-heartedly!

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

You can play SE4 via TCP/IP if all players use Hamachi to create a virtual LAN, then run SE4 as a "LAN" game through it.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Did you get the latest patch?
Deluxe broke it, 1.96 should have refixed it...

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

I have played it 8 hours now. What's wrong is the speed at which it can be played. The UI programmers need to take some Time & Motion classes. The Gilbreths (cheaper by the dozen) would roll over in their grave if they saw this.

It's not just time-motion it is time-information. Quick overviews are needed, that can be drilled down to details. Also as an old guy I find some of the eye-candy distracting or obscuring.

Some of it is just frustrating. tkae the star-Fury like design screen with it's compnant placement and decks. Just how does any of that effect combat/game-play? If not, then why bother?

Right now I rate it D for DOG.
It is so similar to SEIV, why bother playin it at all.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Good suggestion. I've looked into it myself, but getting my group to do it would be like pulling teeth. If the game doesnt simply 'work', they wont be interested in workarounds, unfortunately.

No, we were never able to get it working right with more than 2 players after the SF acquisition.

I concur with it seeming frustrating and with features that seem underdeveloped. I dont like the multiple decks thing either and the fact that weapons have no arcs leads to 'gamey' placement (ie, put them in the back of the ship to protect them etc).

I dont know that I'd call it a 'dog' at this point, but its just not my cup of tea. Part of that might just be me trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the game, buts its amazing that someone like me who was so absorbed by SE4 cant even sit through a few hours of SE5 and enjoy it...

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Just ignore "TCP" then, and use PBW.
No need to all be together at once, autohosting, and you can have PBW send you emails with the turn and/or reminders.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

The decks are just for extra layout space, but the component position does matter; it determines what gets hit when in combat.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

There are four directions damage can come from, front, back, left,right, and internals will be damaged in that order.

In stock, placement is really irrelevant, since the shields and armor are not leaky, and once they fail the guts of the ship are all vaporized almost instantly.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Directional damage but not directional weapons. (Sigh...where is the sad Graemlin when you need it?)

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Yeah, firing arcs would have been nice, so we couldn't just put a weapon on the back of the ship on the middle section and expect it to fire forwards.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Exactly. Its stuff like this that feels woefully underdeveloped. I'd rather not have it in the game at all if its going to be basically incomplete.

SE5 seems like a lot of really good ideas, but the design does not feel tight at all. If the game design ever catches up to the feature list I think it will be great. Until then, it feels sorely lacking.

Re: Eleven Non-Cheating Ways to Help the AI
 

Although I think firing arcs would be great if they worked, I just can't see them working well with the current state of the game/AI or even a realistic future state. The combat decision making routines would need increase dramatically in complexity and I just don't see that happening. I'd much rather the overall game AI be improved before tackling this monster. Or better, improving the UI first.

Side note: The Starfleet Command series revolves around tactical combat and ships have weapon arcs. The AI has gone thru many improvements from the days of SFC1, where the ships would only basically charge for overruns, but even after SFC2, SFCOP and SFC3, the AI still has a very hard time with weapon arcs and is the reason that retrograding (ships going backwards) was never able to be implemented. Yes, they have a totally nerfed retrograde in SFC3, but it is so nerfed as to be not really usable.

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

I'm playing simultaneous game now. I have scout ships with and 1 extra propulsion point. Enemy fleets are chasing them and engage in many combats per turn.

It takes over 20 minutes to process a turn. So the AI is not just stupid, it's slow. I drink my coffee, walk the dog, finish my master thesis, win an election, and the turn is still not finished.
I turned down the combat report log to 1 turn (0 turn, and same with the log. I have a AMD Dual Core processor, 2GB ram, 256MB Sata drive, good video, and CIV4 runs fast.
So what's the deal? What is PBW secret?

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

Appending the log file only takes a few seconds, depending on your HDD speed.

Reducing the combat log history can help with the .CMB size and download times, tho.

The real problem is that the combat algorithms have to keep chugging through many combats. If you'd had 11 or 12 full on smashemup combats it would be the same way.

IMO, the best thing to do is disable retreat. If your fleet survives combat, it can run away normally, but no 12 combats in a row with no shooting.

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

oops, looks like the best thing to do is stop playing.
maybe someday it will be worth the price.

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

Yep, I noticed excessively long turn processing too...even early in the game. I hate to think what it would be like if I actually played a game out past turn 20 or 30. I thought maybe it was just my system or something.

Out of curiosity, how does one disable retreat?

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

Well, by asking Aaron to add a settings.txt option, mainly.

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

I currently have a game well into the hundred plus turn range and my processing time is about 45 seconds. That is with 5 players though.

The more I play the game the more I can't help but feel that it is one of the best 4x games to come along since SE IV.

It is also very comforting to know that Aaron is hard at work addressing bugs, working on the UI, the AI, and much more.

Re: ARRGH Long Turn Times
 

I agree with you Atrocities. Well said!

This game is no SEIV
 

I have to disagree with Atrocities and President_Elect_Shang about SEV becoming one of the best 4x games since SEIV. UI aside, there are games with a lot worse UI's than SEV (like NWN2), this game has to many thing wrong for it to ever become as good as SEIV. Like diplomacy, there are to many choices for the AI. The AI will never be able to handle diplomacy unless Aaron makes it possible to remove about 90% of the options. Ship building needs to streamed lined as well. Just have two rows one labled inner hull and the other outer hull, each can hold a certain percent of the total hull capacity. For example the inner hull can hold 30% of the total hull weight, the outer 70%. This means that a ship hull with a 200kt capacity would be able hold 60kt in the inner hull and 140kt in the outer hull. Directional damage needs to be removed and changed to this: components in the outer hull destroyed before the inner hull components. Having firing arcs in this game would make it to combersome to use in combat, especially when there are more than 50 ships to each side. I know of no other RTS that use firing arcs in their combat model (I don't consider SFC1-3 to be RTS's, they are real time tactical combat games using a limited number of ships at one time). Just try and imagine having to remember the firing arc of over 50 ships and then moving an individual ship so as to take advantage of it's firing arc. If you thought the AI is weak now, just add firing arcs to the mix. You could add firing arcs if combat was turned base like it was in MOO2.

To me the way this game stands now it's probably an excellent multi-player game as long as there are no computer players, but since I don't have the time to play multi-player, SEV becomes a below average 4x strategy game. I don't think SEV will ever become as good as SEIV was and is, so I think Aaron should cut his losses here and move on to SEVI and take the things that worked well in SEIV and SEV and combine them into one very awesome game with a superior AI.

Re: This game is no SEIV
 

AI is one thing that has a lot of growth potential in SE5.

SE4 AIs were very weak before TDM...
And until Rollo made the AIs for CBmod, I'd never seen any reason to not use the high bonus (5x multiplier). In CB, a no bonus, level playing field is a challenge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Half the challenge is from good AIs, but half the challenge is also due to having a balanced mod with no cheap tricks available (including no tactical combat, leaky shields/armor/point defense).

SE5 has only a little more complexity than SE4, and a *lot* more potential power in the AI routines.
Mods and AIs are things that will come from the community, and Aaron can't directly help much with that.
AIs WILL come, just be patient and play more SE4.

Also, try to get into multiplayer, even if it is only a twice-weekly game.

PS:
Outer hull *is* hit before inner hull.
You could change directional damage to random damage, but that wouldn't really help any.
Also, there are no firing arcs. (Some models can't fire in certain directions, which is really a shipset problem)
And consider simul move and strategic combat; Tactical = cheating if you're playing against AIs.

Re: This game is no SEIV
 

I'm fairly certain that Company of Heroes uses some form of arcs...otherwise targeting the rear of a tank would be a useless endevor.

Also the Combat Mission series while not strictly an RTS or a TB game has arcs for the armor protection as well.

That being said...

I would prefer that combat in SEV was turn based, and that we did have the arcs...I still dont understand what has been added to the gameplay, other than the eye candy of realtime moving ships and effects...

Just remember in the end its just one guy doing the programming...

Re: This game is no SEIV
 

How about the vast improvement in the fairness of combat with RT? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: This game is no SEIV
 

The AI can be made to handle the upgraded treaty options; I think Kwok's done most of the work there with the Balance mod.

The essential problem with SEV is it isn't done. Its playable for me, but I can see how others disagree.

Re: This game is no SEIV
 

From a play balance perspective, SE4 style turn based combat is fundamentally broken. Real time execution eliminates the absurdity of one side firing all of its weapons before the other can react that plagued SE4 to no end. SE4 combats tend to be very one-sided, with the victor barely taking a scratch. Some mods can ameliorate this somewhat (aka leaky defenses), but the intrinsic flaw remains.

It is certainly possible to make turn based combat systems that emulate the realism and inherent balance of real time execution, but such systems tend to become bogged down with needlessly complicated initiative and phase rulesets.

Re: This game is no SEIV
 

I am holding out hope that it will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But you might be correct, even this beast might be to tough for even Aaron.