Another problem with retreating from combat
 

A player can bypass warp point defense if his ships are fast enough. An attacker coming thru a warp point who retreats, goes to another sector in the target system. Use of fast ships with a scaredy-cat strategy can nerf warp point defenses. I think this is a game-breaker.

Shouldn't an attacker who retreats, coming thru a warp point, be forced back to the other side of the warp point in all cases?

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I still want the option of SE4 style Steel Cage Combat.

If you want to retreat, you should have to stick it out until the time runs down. Then move on.
None of this wussy running away for GGmod... Manly, stand up slugging matches I say!

The worst part of retreating is that you just keep retreating. Equal speed ships can't catch you, and you can retreat all the way to the enemy homeworld then attack.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I don't see the problem.

Fast ships can get away from warp point defences if they can survive long enough to get out of weapons range.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I have to agree. Given the game constraints, I just can't see a workable retreat model. You can even retreat with slower ships if the spacing is right.


I just inadvertently "helped" an enemy colony ship halfway across the map towards its destination by giving my attack fleet an order to attack another enemy fleet. The colony ship was in the way and there were several battles during which he retreated to the next sector my fleet was going to move into.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Wouldnt mines solves this problem? And mines in adjacent sectors?

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I can't see how. If you are going to exploit this to bypass warp point defenses, you surely will already have enough minesweeping capabilities in your fleet to handle mines at the warp point. So your fleet would just sweep mines encountered anywhere.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I don't see why they should be forced back through the warp point. If they are lucky enough to get through the defenses of the defending player, then good for them - it's a logical result. Assuming suitable warp point defenses it's not like they will be escaping unscathed, particularly if they are carrying any sorts of non-combat supports ships needed to support a sustained attack.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

It is not the faster ships that are the problem. They've got a legitimate tech advantage, or possibly less guns and armor in order to fit more engines (QNP).

It is the ships of the same speed that can escape forever.
Which means you need to sacrifice guns/armor to catch them, and which then means you have a big disadvantage in the fighting.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

What about engine damaging weapons? Or Tractor beams? As far as a fleet goes, if your equipping a entire fleet just to make it past a wp defense, then your going to be way outgunned and if we're talking a fleet, starbases, mines, sats and all that good stuff for a Wp defense force I don't see how your just going to enter the sector and zoom to a retreat without taking some heavy casualties. Plus, if you have this much of a speed advantage, and your talking about playing against a human, they should notice that your bldg your ships with speed and mind and plan accordingly, say several hunter-killer fleets with their own extremly fast ships to catch any breakthrough attempt. If we're talking about the AI....the AI sucks anyway and wouldn't know if you were above it's homeworld bombarding it to oblivion.

Edit: And about the ships being the same speed, I think if my colony ship has the same amount of speed as your frigate then yeah, it should be able to retreat, not just get stuck moving around the edges of the map waiting for the intercept. Thats the price you pay for not researching better engines or for putting that extra DUC on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

The problem with weapons is that you have to get in range to use them.

Yes, an invasion force will lose a few ships at a warppoint, but the rest are free to roam and retreat everywhere else in deep space.
Posting a satellite in every hex to prevent retreats and replacing them every time a ship flies past is not fun.

And my point is that, as is, they do not have to be designed to run the defenses. Equal speed ships... in fact identical warships to yours can escape with minor losses.
You can never catch up to them, so if you use max range strategy you kill at most one ship during the chase to infinity phase. Point blank attempts depend on your starting position, but they are firing back at you with just as much firepower as you are at them, so any of your ships in range get shot down, and maybe you can take some with you.
Suckage ensues.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Fighters.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

How will that help the defense?
Unless fighters are super powerful and uberfast, and tough enough to take PD fire from a fleet of retreating enemies even while facing any fighters the enemy sends...

All I ask for is a toggle option in settings.txt to prevent retreat. Let them fall back for a while if they have artillery, but eventually they'll have to face the music head on.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I guess what it comes right down to is preference then. There should be a no retreat option for the game, and a retreat option. To me I prefer to have the retreat. It adds realism. It's not like through history two opposing forces get in range of each other and a giant steel curtain falls around them and God says "Lets get ready to rummmmmmmmmbbbbbblllleeee!!!" Retreating can even be used as a offensive manuever, if you have all your ships retreating you might lure the enemy into sending his fastest ships at you at maximum rather then escorting the slower ones and defeat in detail ensues. Personally, I play this way, I design the same ship several times. Lets say a Destroyer. I give one all the speed it can handle. This would be my scouting destroyer designed to penetrate enemy space and give me a heads up whats going on in the sector. I give the next one all the weapons it can carry and hold. This is my battle destroyer, designed for combat with the enemy. And last I might make a support destroyer of some kind, say one with mine/sat/fighter launching, or maybe it's a repair ship, or maybe a AA ship. The point is, I don't just design one class of a ship and then wait for it to be obsolete then design another, I design multiple at once. I might not do this for every single ship design, but when it comes to the lighter ships, multiple designs (for me) is the way to go. How you feel about them running wild through your space is how I felt watching my colony ship get trashed by a scout with 1 DUC in SEIV on like turn 3 because it couldn't actually retreat, it had to run the clock down.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Fighters are for the benefit of single ships.

If the enemy insists on making a bee-line for a planet, then your ships should be defending the planet. It would make more sense for them to tackle the fleet seperately, not try and attack them both at the planet.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

I'm getting annoyed with these A.I colony ships and supply ships outrunning my destroyers all the bloody time to play this retreating game that drags the game down.Maybe this should be looked at in the Balance Mod.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Slick, my strategy on warp point defense is to go into the sector veiw and place my bases/sattilites/ships around the warp point, so that wherever the ships decide to flee to they have to go through alot of weeapons fire.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Tim:

Well, maybe not the homeworld right away. You have more than one planet per system, and dividing your forces against a concentrated attack is not going to work.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Two things;

1) I'll work if the defences on each planet are large enough to make up for splitting your fleet. Cargo capacities of planets are much larger in SEV, at least they are in balance mod so that leaves plenety of room for weapons platforms, etc.

2) Not every planet will be in movement range of the enemy fleet, so you might be able to deduce which planets are under threat and defend accordingly. Also, doesn't retreating cost a movement point as it did in SEIII? If you chase them across the map, they can't move and attack planets in your turn. If it doesn't, it should.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

No one should be having problems with AIs when it comes to retreating. You simply station your task force in the sector that will be their line of retreat. Then you send in a single sheppard dog ship to push them into that sector. When the battle starts in the retreat sector, everyone is at point blank range practically. =)


You should be feeling for the AI that they can't do this against you. =)

The retreat feature makes the game easier for the single player.

I can consistantly use a small set of ships to harass and widdle down the supplies of an attack fleet. Then I clean them up when they are out of ordance or supply. I'm able to do this without retreating.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

The problem with this is some ppl might consider it cheating since the AI is so predictable and you know exactly what it's going to do.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Maybe, Spectar, but if you could deduce the startigies a human opponent was using, it would not be cheating. The AI is just not able to change tactics or think ahead to possible problems, and until actual A.I. is invented, will never be able to do so. In any game/strategy the lack of these abilities means loss. The only possible solution is to give the computer a huge advantage, which is what the AI bonus is for, even though that doesn't always help.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Speaking of predictable, I just defeated SE5a's first contact fleet of 6 destroyers with 2 cruisers in GGmod because I put almost all the armor on the front and included lots of PD weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Wonder what his counter stategy will be.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

Against those ships, his twin 100mm plasma battleships would probably do very well... charge in and make me turn away. If they score more than one or two hits in my rear quadrant, my ships would be flamed out wrecks.

More balanced designs are of course going to be developed, and wild screenshot worthy battles will ensue.

Re: Another problem with retreating from combat
 

It must be my older system but I can't take more than one screen shot of combat at a time. If I minimize the combat window when I return to full screen the game locks up. Even from the empires window when I minimize then return to full screen I have to sit and stare at a white screen. And before you ask, I can't stand windowed mode. Makes me nuts.