Why no Save game Feature
 

This game is actually pretty good but the fact that this game has no Save Game feature bugs the F****** Dickens out of me. Enough for me to stop playing.

I put three to four hours into a game and I enjoy the experince, then all of a Sudden, at the climatic battle, when all the chips are down, I lose. Fine.

But my question is why on a Singleplayer game can I not Save the game before the battle??? It's a simple feature that's been implemented since the very first games.

I mean, the game devouts alot of time, alot of work, and alot of playing, and if everything in those hours is thrown out the window because of a three second battle where my main army is defeated and all of a sudden 7 Provinces come conquered, then this is definetly NOT worth my time.

Sure there's an arguement against Saves, "Learn to play the game" or "In reality, you don't get a save game", that crap doesn't apply to video games with flying dragons, especially since RPG Strageties in paticular require this level of time sink.

I honestly like the game, I feel like you two guys are excellent Game Concept creators, especially since you tap real History instead of Trash History (Made up)) as your reference, something in which makes ALL of the sides excellent specimens. But the fact that if I need to sink this excessive level of time into it, only to totally be crushed at once, I should be able to hit the "Undo" button to begin with. Or, I should be able to save game and allow a What-If Scenario to start.

Regards.

PS: I know theres a feature that allows me to continue the game per sa, but it doesn't matter when my God and 70 men get killed to 12 men when I wasn't able to understand my Oppositional force "Unit X" was sacred or that "Unit Y" was really a Giant rather then just a Normal Soldier.

Surprise. funny. Time Wasted. Makes me wish I spent that money on Neverwinter.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Actually alot of strategy games start out with no saves, or insanely limited ones. Most developers seem to not like saves and end up adding it only under pressure.

Another answer is that it started as a pbem (play by email) game and saves were automatic without having to be written into the game. They still are in a way. Your turn creates a file and if you save it then you have a game-save. The backups are still supported by the command switches. This version is the first one to do major things in support of solo playing.

You can create an automatic game-save option. The command-line switches support it.

To add it now would require adding file cleanup options also since anyone who cant do saves manually also cant clean up backups manually. But since other options have added needs for file cleanup, I wouldnt be surprised if we get it in the next version.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

the save game and revert if you lost strategy is considered cheating among many gamers.

it takes the challenge out of the game.

the fact of the matter is you lost. its a game, you can lose at it. just learn from your mistake and apply what you learned to the next game.

sack up.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

As you can tell from the above replies, we are hardcore here. Saving is for wimps.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I'll try Pbeming....

The whole "cheating" things do not apply if I pay them money. If I am a consumer, and I request a sensible feature I should be granted it, otherwise I'll won't buy D4.

Even then, as a Long Gamer, I can understand then practically guarenteed circusmstances of winning (taking unlimited chances to secure a victory is inevitable), and if you think it's cheating, fine. But that does not matter. If I want to cheat and hack my way to victory once it's in "My Dominion" (Pardon the Pun), then whose to stop me.

Sure I could play Oblivion without saves just like Reality and when I die after screwing up the Third Quest I can reroll. But I don't want to. I want saves. I want to be able to put myself far enough back so I can CONTINUE with my enjoinment. Why should the game restrict me!

The Developer vision is essential, but when this vision trips over the consumer, the relationship of the partnership is ruined with the egg on the face lands on the Developer and the Consumer decides to do something else.

I am not encouraging to Developer's to "betray" their vision so they can EA there way to a Short-term Lifespan, what I am asking is that they make sure to implement the simple features that people want as well as the ability to variate their wishes in it.

Why should I ever have to choose whether or not I want to have to save my game!

The Perfect Example: AC for instance, had a save game feature, but it also had a Iron Man feature that made it impossible to save, hence, it wasn't "cheating".

Honestly, if AC said "Nope, only Iron Man mode for you" that would be exactly like saying, "Nope, only 200 turn games for you". 'But I don't want 200 turn games'. "Games past 200 turns are not challenging because you don't have to deal with any time constraints, you cannot variate from my vision, so you have to play how I define the game, even when you paid for it"

Would AC really be a Classic in this circumstance?

More Importantly, do I really have to argue for Save Games?

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Saved games tempt players to cheat themselves, because of the degree to which they have been abused by other game developers, and the resulting habits of most players.

You can still cheat if you want by backing up the files.

PvK

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

There is no save game option in chess, dudebro. once your hand leaves the piece, that is your move, even in the single player version.

the rest of us, when something like what you described happens, start a new game. 70 guy army? weak enough to die to a 12 giants? sounds like you weren't that deep into it anyway.

sack up.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

We had a downloadable set of scripts for Dom2 that did game saves. Did we ever get a version for Dom3? Is there even a difference?

Personally I have the icons for getting into my major solo games doing game saves (and other things)

BTW: Did you ever think that deja vu might be proof that God is into game saves?

Gandalf Parker

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

If you really want to save the game, you can do so by backing up the directory of the saved game before running the turn. If you don't like the results, replace the backed up files and it will be as if you hadn't run the turn yet.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I was under the impression it was short circuit in short term memory, thus making it feel like current events are being reviewed in your long term memory -- providing for the feeling that what is happening happened sometime prior to when you can clearly observe it happening.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Being a consumer and paying money doesn't entitle you to any sensible feature you want. Nevertheless, even though Johan is notorious for his dislike of UI programming, it's reasonable to assume that if you offer enough money he may decide that coding that damn feature worth not having to work anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Btw, as other mentioned there're save games in Dom3. It's just fancy GUI to reload the game that is missing.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Actually Johan is like many people (believe it or not) and isnt doing it for the money. So it would probably take a LOT of money to get him to do it if he feels that it isnt the best thing for the game to have.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

The original purpose of saved games was to continue playing for another day... not as a way to cheat when losing. Going back in time and changing history is cheating and unfair. Having saved games would bring the cheating temptation to all SP gamers. If you want to cheat then you can manually copy the save game files.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

A save game feature would be very nice. The hardcore can do what they like, as they always will. Further, the hard core are the best placed to make mods or use command lines to make saves, as they tend to have the time to devote to it. Sure, we could still build cars that you have to go outside to crank start, but most people like being able to start the car from the inside. I could go outside the game to save, but I would really prefer to do it from inside.

I would request the hardcore to remember that not everyone agrees with them and to be polite to those who have different opinions. I do not intend to “sack up” just because you play differently than I do. Instead I will voice my opinions in a polite fashion.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

You don't need to go outside of the game to save. You need to go outside of the game to *reload*.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I'm not sure that's the real reason. My guess would be is that it's just too much effort for little gain. There're many other areas in the game where the equal effort would make much better improvement.

And most people who don't work for money still can be hired to do something they don't particularly like doing for a very big money (as long as the job doesn't last too long). It's surprising how much time can be recovered back by offloading various chores http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

That is the sound someone makes when they are trying to talk while also crying so hard.

maybe the feature can be added to the wish spell, so that when someone wishes for some cheat that isn't implemented in the game, they'll get their way.

(P.S. I am just ribbing, try and read it in a gutteral voice like someone trying to be hard core.)

(P.P.S. Jokes!)

(P.P.P.S. Stop crying and sack up.)

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

It bugged me at first, I admit, but when I was a kid I didn't like asparagus. Now I'm older, and if you steam it for just a minute or two, drizzle olive oil over it, add lemon and crushed garlic, freshly grated Parmezan cheese, and just a little white pepper, it's really quite good.

Sack up.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I too was a little like "wha.... huh?" when I first realized there was no save/load.

In the end the when you remove the crutch, you develop better players. Don't be afraid of losing from time to time. this isn't tic tac toe.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I don't have that much problems with the no save feature since backing up the game files is pretty easy (with longer turns you even do that during the processing of the turn) but if a save option is a cheat, why not have a restart game option. If things go wrong I like to restart the game with same settings regarding opponents, pretender etc. Are there any command lines I can use to do that?

Sort of related, when I choose save and quit, it sometimes does sometimes does not remember the orders I already gave to some of the commanders. Is there something that determines that behaviour?

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Oh, but it does have Save game feature. It just doesn't have the glorious Save/Reload.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

restart game is not a bad idea, really.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

It is the developer's prerrogative to design the game as he sees fit. If you do not like the game without a save game feature, you don't buy it. You should have tried the demo before buying it.

Also, I must add I DO play Oblivion with "perma-death". If my character dies once, its game over and start again for me.
Currently, I am a 17th Lvl Imperial roaming around the map and having a blast being cautious and wetting my pants at the least sign of danger... oh! And I play with mods that make the game significantly harder. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

You do on a fanboy infested forum.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

True. Well actually the only place you wouldnt have to argue it would be a players forum that is just as "infested" with fanatical short-vision gamers. There are plenty of forums that make their effort to gather those instead of "fanboys".

Of course you would also have to debate the point on any forum with people who are willing to see both sides, or people representing both sides of anything.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I like that. We have an option to restart the turn. Id like an option to restart the game. Im not sure if the game saves all of the settings in a way that would allow that but it would be nice to use the same map, same number of AIs, same starting race for me, etc etc and create a new game from all of it.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I think a save/reload feature would make Dom3 easier to learn. I know I reloaded hand-saved games a lot when I was just starting with Dom2. Even with the interface improvements, I think it's still hard to understand why you lost a battle, or how to do better, w/o trying it a bunch of times.

But OTOH, Dom4 could have a "hardcore" mode that doesn't allow reloading a turn multiple times.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Personally, while i was bothered too by the lack of conventional 'saves' when i started with Dominions 2, i grew so fond of that lack of feature that i'm actually thinking of it as a feature now.

I admit it is frustrating when you start, and lose stupid battles and have your pretender killed too often. But that quickly taught me to be more careful in battles, and led me on playing far more interesting games where i had to recover from big setbacks. Had the game allowed me to reload, i'm not sure i'd have played though these games, and i might have grown bored of winning too easily.

But then, i'm 'computer-savvy' enough to manually save games when i feel i hold an interesting situation that i want to be able to replay later with a different strategy. And i'm grateful that the game's filesystem is trivial enough to allow that...

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Would you care to explain your insulting implication that anybody who wants a save and reload feature for a game is a member of some ill-defined group known as "fanatical short-vision gamers"? I'm not sure why you want to include yourself as a member of the "limited saves are AWESOME!!!!" group. After all, every single argument that people make about why a lack of a proper save feature is a good thing eventually boils down to the person whinging that "I lack the willpower to not endlessly save, so it's a good thing that developers take saving away from everyone else as well."

You know Gandalf, there's no point in debating anything with you, because you refuse to take any kind of position. You simply waffle that every position is equally valid. That's pure sophistry.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I dont think Ive ever been able to turn on "iron man" in games that had a no-saves switch. And I dont have the willpower to NOT ruin the game if the game saves are easy. The fact that its possible but too much effort to do unless Im really eager for it is perfect for me.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I've played many many SP games since release and have never once been bothered by the lack of save game feature.

When I play, I *am* my Pretender. If I make a mistake, and I do often, I view that battle time and again, to understand what went bonkers - and improve, hopefully, the next time around. The lack of save game 'feature' adds a sense of permanence and, dare I type it, reality to the game. This isn't a game for little babies or people with an half an hour per week and expecting a quick fix. It was never meant to be, if I'm understanding its history correctly. It's immersive strategy writ large.

If programming time is going to be spent on implementing anything, save games ought to be waaaay down the list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And hey, I like the 'sack up' jokeyness. So, you know.

Sack it up.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

For me, and I'm sure others would agree, it comes down to the fact that I want the Illwinter developers spending their time fixing game bugs and improving the nations.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Certainly there will be people who agree on both sides. I, for one, would like a save game feature and don't feel that it would be overly difficult.

If you don't want to use an option, turn it off...but don't deny the option to everyone else or try to make everyone else play a game the way you think it should be played.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Since the game only has two developers... I don't want them spending their time adding a feature which can already be done manually. Fixing existing game bugs is definitely a greater priority.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Sophistry? I suppose thats often true but I wouldnt have honored myself with labeling it such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry

Its a marketable skill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
As far as "waffle" thats a proproganda chosen word. How about "debator", or "moderator", or "diplomatic". Any of those have to be able to see both sides and move discussions forward without choosing a rock-wall absolute.
Or you could always just say "old married man". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Generally Im all for that. But I think that some things just dont work that way. The same point can be made about cheat codes, or autoclients, or even serial generators. Those in favor of it say it wont ruin anything because those who dont want it just dont need to use it.

And keep in mind, this isnt about adding it. Its about making whats already there easier for anyone to use. Making it a choice on the menu.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I understand your reasoning. And as far as game stopping bugs, I can agree. I just haven't encountered very many of those and, since other features are added with each patch (like new nations), I tend to think this is not a case of prioritizing major bugs over new features.

Without adressing all of the other specific arguments for or against Saves (but having considered them), I wanted to add my voice to the OP and to Graeme's. Some people think Game Saves are a no-brainer in this day and age and I would even suspect, that while some of the 'old crew' here might not like them, the general public might. Obviously, I don't have any evidence but one thing that struck me after reading this thread...having read game reviews...not having game saves is often listed as a negative and I don't think I have ever read a review that said a game was worse because it *did* have game saves.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

On a serious note, I'd just like to point out that I've seen quite a few posts insulting Gandalf for being a "fan-boy" etc. I have yet to notice Gandalf directly insulting anyone, even in retaliation. I think that shows a lot of will-power, in and of itself. More than I have at times, certainly.

Regardless of whether or not Gandalf Parker is a "fanboy", he does and has put in a great deal of work and effort to help others and make Dominions a better experience, and for that, I feel he has the right to be as much of a "fanboy" as he wants to be, and still get some respect.

And to all those who use large words without knowing what they mean, please do yourself a favor and use a dictionary. Yes it's amusing for the rest of us when you screw up, but we're all friends here and we don't really want you to look foolish.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Burned!

There's another thread with most of the relevant arguments on this issue in it. It eventually turns into a flame war and spirals out of control for seven pages.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...&fpart=all

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

That's not true at all. If you give people a handy ability to undo unlucky results and replay avoiding all their mistakes using knowledge they gained from watching what actually happened the first time, many players will use it, and gameplay and balance will get more and more based on "backsies", people will talk about how easy the game is, etc. Habitual backsies erodes gameplay and sucks the meaningfulness of playing. Look at adventure games that include this, and end up getting balanced so that it's almost impossible to win the game without using backsies, and the converse is that it just becomes a pointless endurance test to beat the game.

PvK

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I do think its amusing how the hardcore people are saying that people who want to have the option to save games "lack the will power".

Um... what are you afraid of? If saving games is made an option you don't have to use it. That is... unless YOU yourself lack the willpower.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I myself lack will power to not save and reload or use "unbalanced" options if the game gives them to me. While I can see uses of a save game feature (mostly for research and replaying battles) I am absolutely certain that I would use it to avoid unpleasant events, or reload a few turns earlier to prepare for an unexpected attack.

As it stand now it is possible to "Save" the game by copying the files in the directory structure, but this is inconvenient enough that I wouldn't use it in a SP game.

So I like how it is... because I would abuse a save if it was available to me.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

It seems kind of sad to me that the designers and the fanboys here would limit the ability of many, many players to enjoy the game because some people can't muster enough will power to simply not reload the game.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I definitely enjoy the game better because I have to think about my choices more and take some risk. I'm sorry if it doesn't accommodate the immediate-gratification and no-consequenses crowd, but a lot of the rest of our society does, so perhaps you can consider this an opportunity to take a walk on the wild side.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

But thats like setting candy out at a diabetics meeting, or having an open bar at alcholics anonymous. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Besides I dont think its as simple as use or not use. If the no-save people can be insulted as weak-willed then the save-mongers can be insulted as greedy destructors (not by me of course). The people who want saves might not be considering the big picture. They think that their game will be improved but in the long run it makes the game less fun. Even for them. The replayability, the challenge, the long-lasting of the game.

It can be argued that adding instant and unlimited save/restores would not improve the game, but would actually damage it in the long run. Even in marketability since I think the game has more to sell it to hard-core strategists than to short-attention-span video gamers. Adding things like saves and cheat codes might sell more Dom3 but would probably hurt the market of Dom4.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I agree, and it doesn't bother me a bit if people call me a fan-boy for saying so.

The same people can then go out and buy Warcraft3 or Age of Mythology or Heroes V and tell themselves that they're rebelling against our evil conformist ways, and I will wash myself clean in the river of irony.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

No one is stopping you from not restoring your game... so what is the problem? Funny how you label them "immediate-gratification" crowd when you, yourself don't have any faith in your own will power.

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

I don't think I ever said that I didn't have faith in my own will-power. Unless we're talking fresh pasta with a really snappy sauce, I have plenty of confidence in my personal stoicism. The problem is that saving games for a long time have reminded me of that monkey who's head they wired up so that he could keep on stimulating the pleasure center of his brain for as long as he wanted.
Eventually he starved to death, dying with a big blister on his little monkey finger and a big monkey grin on his little monkey face. If the save game feature is there and easy to use, at some point it's going to be used. Saved games, for me, turn "games" into "further sources of stress I don't need in my life". It's not that I need to use them, it's that I need to exert my will-power not to use them.

Saved games can be recovered and replayed, with some amount of difficulty-and I really like Gandalf's suggestion about restarting random worlds. I'd be up for that, as long as that's where it ended.

I just like the fact that I can play this game through to the end without having the Devil sitting on my shoulder saying "go ahead, monkey, press the button...just...once..."

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

So... you say you aren't worried about your will power then you say you say you compare it to a devil on your back? I'm sorry... your post doesn't make sense. You either lack some sort of self control or you don't.

If you won't restore then why do you care?

Re: Why no Save game Feature
 

Velusion, that's like saying "if you aren't doing anything wrong, then why do you mind if the government installs video-cameras in your home?"

Some things just intrinsically cause stress. They don't necessarily turn you into a crack-head, they just make life a little less enjoyable and a little more pathetic.