Where are default Country Training/Morale points?
 

Hi!

In the Preferences Menu there is "Country Training" option which enabled sets game's default "Morale" points. I have found in the game manual that each country has its unique morale values but oddly I can't find them anywhere in the WinSPWW2 documentation. I am a quite interested in meeting them closely.

So, can you show me where they are stored or simply quote them here?

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

They are right in the game displayed on the screen every time you buy a formation .

In between the display of the number of points you have and the number of points you have spent ( Force Value ) is this line....

"Base Experience: XX Moral:XX"

and those are the numbers the game uses as a starting point for assigning experience and moral to your units for whatever nation you have selected for that particular time period

Don

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale points?
 

Oooo, excellent point!

I, being a newbie, will be watching this post closely!

I would suppose that the other factor is force technology -- like quality of armor, arty, air etc. -- that would seem to be harder to quantify...

Although once we've determined the best morale/training countries we can compare key units that we're interested in and rank them because it will be easier once specific countries have been indentified... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

* grabs popcorn and sits down to watch *

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale points?
 

Great so how do these values relate to specific countries there brig??

* ducks *

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale points?
 

You'll see them after you've selected a country for a battle and start buying forces. They'll be different for each country and are likely to change depending on the time period you pick. So pick so nations at various dates and check the scores.
Those values will be the starting values where bonus scores from 'elite' units will be added to and where penalties for 'green' units will be substracted from. You'll see those penalties and bonus in each specific purchase screen for formations (most will have no bonus or penalty for either morale or experience). Try a scout formation, those usually have a small bonus.

Scores of 70/70 represent 'average' scores. Those are troops with adequate basic training and decent morale but without combat experience. A unit with 60 experience represents one with little or pretty bad training, 60 morale is getting a bit shaky. Troops with lower scores will be quite unreliable in combat.
From 75 points of experience onwards you can start considering troops be of higher quality, especially if they also have 70+ morale. If experience gets into the 80's or even 90's you've got 'elite' troops.

Higher experience and/or morale will make units more expensive, lower scores will make them cheaper.

Narwan

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Every nation has a different set of numbers. If you want to find out what they are pick a year and a nation and take a look. You can go through all 92 nations for whatever year you have set by going to the "Allies" button and picking the next nation on the list. When you are buying allies in a game you are buying their experience and moral. If you buy them as "captured" you are buying them with the main nations experience and moral. Both values may ( or may not ) change from decade to decade so don't assume what you see for 1956 is going to be the same as 1996

Don

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Thanks for information!

I have checked some nations and I am quite confused! Let's take 1944 values:

- "R" nation is set as Tito's partisans by default. Their base experience is 60. It is possible in respect of regular combat. But their morale fixed at 60 is completely inadequate! Yugoslavian partisans were fierce fighters. Many times their were able to defeat Nazi occupation forces even in regular battles.

- Polish morale is really funny! As we know there are two Polish armies in the game subordinated to Polish Government-in-exile (PSZ/AK) and Polish communists in USSR (LWP) respectively. Unfortunately I don't know why PSZ has morale 75 and LWP has 65 points. Eventually they are one nation units! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

OK first to clarify

I've been back and forth between the two game forums so much today I forgot I was in the WW2 forum when I wrote this. In WinSPWW2 the moral and experiece is NOT done by decade but by year

Re Poland. NO not ONE nations units. One was a Polish army trained and fighting with the Western Armies in NW Europe and one was a force picked up and formed as the Russians moved through Poland. NOT the same at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Don

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

If so, I suppose their "Base Experience" parameters should be different but both are identical: 70 points! But why their morale differs so considerably??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Yeah well, maybe we should reduce the LWP experience. It shouldn't be higher than Russia. Good catch

Don

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

whew glad that was settled it was getting pretty tight in here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Might want to increase the Finns morale slightly too at least in 1944. Currently they are at 65 same as Sweden?

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

If I gave those lists to 100 people I'd get 100 different lists back producing ENDLESS debate. EVERYBODY has their own ideas of where those numbers should be which is the main reason we don't publish the list. The other reason is it's in code and aside from the fact we don't publish code we found from past experience than half the people trying to read the way the numbers are strung together manage to read it wrong producing even more "debate". Which is why the game allows you to turn that off and use the numbers you want to use if you don't like ours

So my question to you is why should the Finns, finding themselves on the losing side in a major war and having to switch sides have higher morale than the Swedes who stayed out of it or higher than the Germans whos side they are on ? And also the Finns have a higher experience than the Swedes so the two combined make the Finns a tougher opponent. In the game the Finns are equal for both Experience and Morale to the Germans. Why should they be higher ?


Don

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

'R' is NOT set as the yugoslay partisan OB.

From the game manual:
"Yugoslavia OOB020

1930-1946

This OB covers the Yugoslav nation, and then the various partisan factions of the area... "

Narwan

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

O man just wen I thot there was gonna be peace...

I surrender!

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Well Ive been thinking this long and all I can say is that the Finns lacked neither morale nor experience in the fighting of summer 1944 against the Russians. One thing that helped there was the fact that after the initial advance of 1941 it was trench warfare until the Soviets launched their summer offensive in June 1944.

The war in Lapland from Sep 1944- Apr 1945 against the Germans I cant really say much about since I have not studied it in any great detail. I do know that the Finns fighting there were mostly new recruits due to Soviet demand that the veterans must be send home, so experience and most likely morale too was lower in that war.

Well It is no big deal really and a difference of 5 is probably little effect on actual game play. I just thought that maybe there was some kind of error since the finnish morale values suddenly go from 70 to 65 in 1943 and especialy in 1944 when the decisive fighting took place.

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Reasonable, given that the best Finnish troops were the Swedish-speaking regiments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Tulkaa nyt katsomaan kuinka hurrit tappelevat...

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

In Wulfirs hypothetical World War 2 where also the Danish forces were fierce fighters and played a major role in the war along whit Sweden? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Ahhh... and Swedish speaking and Swedish have two different meanings. Finland is a two language country afterall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Well I found a morale table by year. It's an old chart but it should be at least a basis of judging morale and experience:

http://www.bostream.nu/brickhouse/spp1_0.html

You have to scroll all the way down to the bottom http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Just a little trivia:

In the continuation war 1941-1944 there were about 1600 Swedish volunteers most of whom were engaged in secondary guard duties and not all 1600 served at the same time in Finland. In addition during the summer battles of 1944 only 60 Swedish volunteers were still in Finland. Average service for Swedes were 3 to 6 months. Now Finnish forces at their height in the summer of 1944 was about 450 000 men strong thats 16% of the population of 3 million of the country in 1944. On a side note there were also 3400 Estonian volunteers in Finland.

Also 8402 Swedish volunteers fought in the Winterwar 1939-1940 in the Svenska Frivilligkåren Corps.

The help Sweden gave to Finland in both wars is greatly apriciated, but Swedens direct military actions were wery small.

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Details, details..., we count them as our own... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

The "Illustrated Strategy & Tactics Primer" , where that experience and moral table comes from, is for SP1 which, is now eleven years old and the rest of the site is dedicated to SPWaW and neither has anything whatsoever to do with WinSPWW2. They are vaguely related like second and third cousins. It makes interesting reading and some of the advice in the primer applies to all SP games but don't expect that E&M chart to match the numbers we use in this game.

Don

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

ewww!

Help I've been nuked!

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Hardly Nuked bro...you should see him when he really gets pissed off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I must say, you are very quick to post your thoughts...and thus you expose your lack of experience with this game.
It's all good though, it makes for entertaining reading eh.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Carry on
SGT

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

I only "exposed" the truth which I wasn't hiding from view in the first place.

I do keep an eye on entertainment value while posting so glad you enjoyed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

T_R

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

True Trivia Terror:
I can't refrain from telling everyone that the owner of that site lives across the street from the playground where I lost my two front teeth as a kid.
Took many trips to the dentists to get back to this: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

John T.

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Trivia Terror Two:
The Volunteer company was down to 52 men before Tali-Ihantala and ended their guard duty in that area with 24 men standing.


So I agree that they where rather insignificant in the big picture.
The best book on the subject of Swedish voluteers in the continuation war translates to "Small piece in big game"

Cheers
/John T.

Re: Where are default Country Training/Morale poin
 

Wow neato you know the author!

That's pretty amazing.

Crowns are like 500 bucks each...

oooo!

T_R