LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

So I'm looking for a worthy LA Blood nation now that I've played Mictlan for a solid week; I'm pretty much hooked on the blood now. I've definitely got my eye on Lanka as an impressive EA blood nation (tipped off by a handy post) but I wanted to get a slightly better sense of the top two contenders for best non-Mictlan LA blood nations available.

Their blood economy bases are roughly comparable - Abyssia with a 90 gold B1 sacred Sanguine Acolyte or 180 gold sacred B2 Sanguine Anathemant vs. the 80 gold non-sacred B1 Diabolist or the 190 gold sacred B2.275 Goetic Master. The acolyte is a better blood buy than the diabolist, the Goetic Master better (on average) than Sanguine Anathemant. With SDRs the acolyte is probably the most efficient means of searching, but Goetic Masters are also quite dangerous on their own, unlike acolytes.

For general magic, Marignon has a lot more flexibility with regards to type, and no capital-only mages is a great edge over Abyssia's severely limited non-capital picks; also, they get better mileage out of blood magic, both with nationals and in that their more potent blood mages can use battlefield blood magic without annihilating their blood slaves with their heat aura. On the other hand, Abyssia's ubiquitous immunity to fire gives them an undead-like ability to throw down massive hurt without their own troops suffering, and without adding an vulnerability to specific counters. Their Warlocks also can teleport with the addition of a starshine skullcap, which makes their capital only-ness a little less annoying (although it's still painful to march your fire mages slowly upwards).

For troops, Abyssia's heavy infantry are rock hard across the board (especially after playing Mictlan). Marignon can still manage pretty durable troops with Man at Arms, rely on striking first with Pikemen, can easily field much larger numbers of their non-capital sacred troops, their crossbows are definitely better than throwing axes.

For special characters, Marignon is clearly dominant, with inquisitorial bonuses for smacking enemy dominion, scouts, spies, non-capital only assassins, and many sailors.

Anyone have any thing I missed, or advice? I'm playing both with 3 Turmoil/Productivity/Growth/Luck, dominion 5-7. Marignon, Baphomet with fire 9 and astral 5 (and probably 2 earth or nature, I can't remember), Abyssia Glyph S/F/E/N 4.

The original post was here.
Handy post

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

Deleted.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

What are your thoughts on setup for LA Ulm? I always want at least 1 Growth on a blood hunter nation so if I feel the need for patrolling it isn't permanently biting into my blood/cash supply, and Ulm across the board looks like it requires an lot of resources so some production wouldn't be out of line (at least, to make it worth using - Mictlan has a summonable B2 for 25 blood so I'd need to take advantage of Ulm's excellent infantry to make the switch meaningful). Sleeping Vampire Queen B5 D5 Turmoil 3 Luck 3 Productivity 2 Growth 1 works, as does a sleeping rainbow crone with same scales, F2 A1 W1 N2 E2 S3 B4 D5. Or would you advise skipping sleep and try to get the blood flowing before the first year is up (something I rarely do)?

And referencing Utterdark - is that your endgame strat in general as LA Ulm? Is that kind of strat necessary to make them viable - it would seem like you'd have to do something to compound the advantage of your Vampire Counts (who, while being pretty nice, I don't see the real advantage of just yet over Marignon's excellent balance of infantry/magic/missiles/specials).

Edit: I'm trying out a game a LA Ulm with the Crone above... man, their magic is absolutely wretched. I'm using a lot of Fortune Tellers for research, which goes nicely with Turmoil 3, and I'm smashing through indeps and Atavis with Zweilanders/Heavy Infantry/Rangers/Villians, but I feel like I'm going to plateau at some point on the pure force aspect of the game and I'll need more magic to compete. Since most of my battle magic is wretched I'm just spamming Black Bows of Botulf to try to get rid of enemy spellcasters, but I doubt that has much legs. I did find a site where I can summon enchantresses... is that pretty much my best hope? And what might I do prior to summoning Spectres or Heliophagi if I didn't find a good indep?

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

LA Ulm's magic is really really REALLY horrible. In fact, you're pretty hosed without a good pretender with good spread in magic. Ranger + Zweihander spam can only get you so far. And forbid you go up against a SC or two. They need a disclaimer on the nation description that you MUST pick (whatever the requirement for Sanguine Heritage is ...) on your pretender or you are the screwzor if you don't get lucky with some indies.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

So after tooling around in the aforementioned game, I want as many magic summons as I can get. With that in mind:

Sleeping Crone
Scales: Production 2, Growth 1, Turmoil/Luck 3.
Dominion: 5
Magic: F2 W3 E3 N3 D4 B4

Skipping astral, since it's the one area I might be able to get by with my own mages (potentially S3, reliably S2). The crone will be able to summon pretty good spellcasters/crafters/all demon types, create all the gem spawning items as well as Ice Pebble Staves (a favorite item of mine for commanders), and with only moderate empowerment and good items be able to reach the highest levels of Blood and Death magic. P.S. A pretender crone will never get diseased for being old, right? It's just for her crappy stats.

I still wouldn't mind additional feedback with more explicit comparisons of LA Ulm/Marignon/Abyssia. While I see a little better that a maintenance free immortal decent spellcasting bloodhunter who throws off thralls is a good buy for 44 blood, I don't understand what I have to do to parley that into effective play. Again, I love their massed missile fire and high protection for safely bashing indeps, but other nations have nearly as good troops without being anywhere near as magically awful as Ulm.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

Well, my thoughts on LA Ulm...

1) Rangers are very good. Everyone knows this. Moving on.
2) Your best bloodhunters (besides the Vampire Count) are B-enabled Fortune Tellers.
3) Your best Mage is, really, the Fortune Teller. You could even go with Misfortune scales to maximize the benefit of them.
4) The way to diversify LA Ulm's magic are Spectres. Vampire Counts have DD naturally, so can craft the Skull Staff, which gives them DDD to summon them. This is a very smart move. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what Dom3's Spectres have in the way of Magic picks. It seems that D is certainly fixed, but beyond that...
5) Having your Pretender able to summon in good mages (besides 4) above) while also working with your gem income would probably be the typical Lamia Queen. This generally means that you need NNNNDD on your Pretender, and you'll need BB as well for the Vampire Counts. It's generally rather funny how this directs your progress.

As far as Marignon goes:

The Goetic Master has one major weakness, and that's his old age. Unless you want to spend your blood slaves on keeping their age down, they will need to be seen as more or less expendable. As for myself, I generally do not like 'old' mages, which is a shame. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Otherwise, Marignon is fairly solid.

LA Abysia? I haven't played them enough to know, really.

If I think of any other LA Blood nations (Midgard is a very minor one, IIRC), I'll mention them later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

On the Goetic Masters - Boots of Youth should arrest their aging, but I see the point; you're tacking another 10 blood onto a bloodhunter, which is getting you a bit closer to Ulm's Vampire Count. Not that I don't like boots of youth for mages, I just don't like them as a prereq to your main blood hunters - which is a point for using the diabolist, and therefore also possibly for LA Abyssia whose cheap blood hunters are better in the long run (although the diabolists have a bit more offensive punch... I'm a flipflopper, what can I say?).

For LA Ulm - I was also thinking of Contact Naiad, Faerie Court, Streams from Hades, Hidden in Snow, Troll Court, Kings of Earth, and the elemental devil mixes. On reflection, though, if I'm waiting for the Lamia Queen to begin searching for water sites it's not a reliable choice for my pretender (while I can still reliably search for holy, earth, death, blood, astral, and nature to at least level 1 with my mages). Perhaps Master Lich with Death 5 Blood 4 Earth 3 Nature 3 Dominion 6 with the above scales; he can't kick off the clam economy, but he can still call in Father Illearth and start a Blood Stone economy (possibly blood empowering some troll kings or earth kings).

I love Turmoil 3/Luck 3, but I'm pretty happy still to have the fortune tellers in this setup. You're getting a lot of random events, and some of them still turn out bad.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

Well, I got to the point where I could summon multiple Vampire counts in a round, but it didn't please me much. Maybe I just got spoiled with Mictlan, but I felt the need to retain a strong gold economy with Ulm to keep cranking out the troops while I was pretty comfortable switching over almost entirely to blood with Mictlan (also aided by the almost universally sacred nature of Mictlan's worthy troop and hero choices). Also, between crappier searching and lower paths I feel both like I just don't have that many things to do with the gems I do have and that what power I do have is bottlenecked by my pretender. They just feel off (probably in part because I really enjoy advancing through the tech/magic tree).

The Utterdark strat above would seem to work waaaaay better for Mictlan using Tlahuelpuchi (who may not be immortal, but as assassins can be much more dangerous). If that's where LA Ulm wants to go, I'm going elsewhere.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

LA Marignon is a pretty kick *** blood nation. They have crossbows which are excellent. They have easy access to flaming arrows which rocks early game. Goetic Masters have early access to hellfire which is a pretty decent spell. Their national summons are excellent. Finally they have great magical diversity ( F, A, W, E, S, B ). The only thing that they are lacking is a decent sacred troop.

Another LA blood nation is Utgard. Due to the changes in the economics they are a decent blood nation. Their troops include the most heavy infanty of the age. Their mages are solid, and have a fine cost/performance ratio, especially the skeithkona. Finally their Skratti are *excellent* in combat ( excellent may be too weak of a word, with the right equipment they are right up there with the Jarls of a by gone age in combat ).

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

Spectres get 1 death and 2 random.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

I think he means specifically what those randoms can be.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

The two randoms of spectres can be any combination of Water, Earth, Astral, Death.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

By the way, EA Abyssia makes for a fine blood nation too.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

Really? With their capital only blood hunters? Those blood hunters come at a serious opportunity cost.

No the truth is that EA abysia sucks as a blood nation on any map bigger than a postage stamp, and even then they suck.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

EA Abyssia? From first glance, their blood hunters look too expensive, too old, and are capital only - what's their ace in the hole I'm missing? They would seem at the very low end of nations for whom blood is at all possible (certainly behind the various blood capable 'heims). I'm not saying they're a bad nation - I just don't get how they are a decent blood nation.

I have enjoyed EA Pangea with a Nature/Death pretender (for access to the LA Pangea Carrion leaders and Lamia Queens to accelerate carrion summoning) and massed Panii for hordes of freespawns. EA Pangea can also dabble in blood with the Panii who happen to be BB, but I wouldn't call them a blood nation (Panii are too expensive to be used just for BB, even with freespawns) - but they are (possibly uniquely?) able to combine three of my favorite national attributes (blood, reanimation, and massed freespawns) and can even switch gears and go pseudo LA Ermor with Carrion Woods/Utterdark in the late game if your blood game isn't working for you, and they can also use their cheap temples with Jade Knives to drive hostile dominion into enemy territory until their blood dries up.

Re: LA Marignon vs. LA Abyssia
 

I will say this for our discussion of LA Ulm - it gave me a brainstorm and now I know much better how to play LA R'yleh. Substitute Void Specter for Vampire Count, Naiad clam spam for blood hunting, and the late game lethality of the Dreamlands for Utterdark.