Wu-shan, Holmgard and Padmassa
 

This is a not-so-brief description of the three nations I'm working on, along with (just for the hell of it) the flavor text for Padmassa's EA national spells. The coding is mostly done but I'm waiting for another patch version and on artwork - and of course there are a lot of balance issues yet to be worked out.

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
* -> capital only.

Padmassa
(EA) The Black Coven
B4 D4 S2 E2 W1
Conjurer (BD), Circle Master (BBDD), High Circle Master* (BBDD,3.7 randoms), Witch (BE, 0.7 randoms, douse bonus), Hag* (BDE, 1.7 randoms, forge bonus), Mad Priest (H).
see below for national spell flavor text.
Recruit brainwashed children with slave-collars*, cruel and cowardly mercenaries (mostly mounted on Aurochs) and the Faceless*/Things Once Men*.
Modeled on the ancient Assyrians, plus Padmassa (the villains from the Bazil Broketail books), and also the villains from The Dark Crystal, they kill everybody and then pile their skulls in huge heaps. Their religion, such as it is, centers around blood-sacrifices to the Things that Lurk beyond the Door at Ararat (Thomas Harlan pwns u,) and to their Black Crystal (which drains souls.)

(MA) Padmassa, Power of Purity
F3 S3 W2 D1 A1 E1
Magi (FWS), High Magi (HFFWSS), Arch Magi* (HHFFWSS,1.7 randoms), Guardian of Pure Fires* (HHHF, 0.7 randoms), Guardian of Pure Waters* (HW, 0.7 randoms).
Inherit Caelum and Abyssian national summons, plus I'll add some more from Persian mythology.
Recruit abyssians, mounted on Aurochs. Sacred troops are either Immortal (along with their steeds), or flying. You can also recruit some peasants.
Noble caste is descended from Abyssians and Caelumites sent to keep watch over the Door - mostly look like Abyssians, winged children are stillborn but can be saved by immersion in the purifying waters.

(LA) Padmassa, Work in Progress
They'll be arabs, but I'm still bouncing ideas.
Definitely has death magic, definitely has light cavalry, definitely has undead aurochs (since they've been killed off.)

(EA) Wu-Shan, Snake Crane and Dragon
F2 W2 N3 E2 A2
Geomancer (WEN, 1.7 randoms, prevents bad events), Ascetic (AFN, 1.7 randoms, research bonus), color-coded monk thugs (HH or HHH).
See below for a national summon (deity only). Has combat summons that produce more monks in combat.
Color-coded sacred monks can be produced in all castles. Non-sacred, cheaper versions are also available, as are the weaker T'ien Ch'i style infantry.
A nation of enlightened monks

(LA) Wu-Shan, The Black Lotus
B2 A1 E1 F1 W1 N1
Eunuch Sorcerer (BB,1.1 randoms,douse bonus), Eunuch Master of the Five Elements (BAEFWN, 0.7 randoms).
LOTS of national summons, both for blood slaves and for every type of national gem. Very few are sacred, however.
Military is mostly identical to ME T'ien Ch'i, but lacks the sacred princes. You also get the monks from EA Wu Shan, but now they are capital only.
When the survivors of the royal family of T'ien Ch'i fled to the south, their eunuch servants seized power! Now they have corrupted the magic of the five elements with blood sacrifice.

(EA) Holmgard, Storm in the North
(LA) Holmgard, Republic of the Ice Queens
A nation entirely of goblins. Still being balanced and having units swapped in between the two eras.
Holmgard is the nordic name for the Russian city of Novgorod. So, this is my effort to introduce a lot of russian folklore.
You get sacred iceclad goblins mounted on winter wolves. To my chagrin, it looks like cheap, sacred, ethereal heavy cavalry are unbalanced! Who knew?
You get cossacks, who are just like wolf riders, but they're wearing frickin' armor. Their low-cost (especially only paying size 1 resources) makes up for their substandard profile.
You get Vaetti hags, and you also get Baba, who are more powerful Vaetti hags that get more picks.
In the LA, Baba only appear as heroes, but you get -
Theurgs (who are goblins), since the goblins of Holmgard have adopted the religion of the spheres,
A professional military, possibly including uniformed combat-mage goblins?
Various merchant-type heroes who are spies of one kind or another.

---

Here's some flavor text. Some of these spells don't really work in the current patch.

#name "Breed Buck-Imps"
#descr "The Dread Lords of Padmassa have refined the art of Cross-breeding to a science, and do not leave it to chance. They are known for their practice of inseminating blood-slaves with seed derived from their vanquished supernatural enemies. Buck-imps are a malformed crossbreed of humans and elven races such as the Van or Tuatha. They are vicious, stupid creatures but skilled in battle. A typical blood slave bears twins or triplets, and a skilled mage ensures that more slaves survive to term. Buck-imps arm themselves with weapons forged from their mother's butchered carcasses."
#descr "Buck-Imps are a semi-intelligent crossbreed of humans and one or another elven race - only blood slaves can bear them and the birth is always lethal. They entirely lack the magical abilities of their elven parents, but they grow to maturity in a matter of weeks and are posessed of superhuman strength and ferocity. The buck-imps make up the bulk of the dark armies of Padmassa."

#descr "A somewhat more intelligent breed of imp, able to forge terrible banefire bows from their mother's carcasses. They fire these bows from behind the cover of great shields. Although they are more intelligent and loyal than conventional imps, they require a certain amount of training, and thus cannot be bred in the same numbers."

#name "Breed Buck-Trolls"
#descr "The Dread Lords of Padmassa have refined the art of Cross-breeding to a science, and do not leave it to chance. Rather than inseminating blood-slaves directly, their blood is used to enhance the fertility of female aurochs, who are then inseminated using the seed of Kappa. The aurochs literally burst open, giving birth to Buck-Trolls. Buck-Trolls are immensely stupid and are given easy to use weaponry and non-confining armor."
#descr "Buck-Trolls are dim-witted aquatic beings of great strength and ferocity. They are given simple weapons and used as shock troops."

#name "Hatch Draconoids"
#descr "Innocent blood is used to quicken the fossilized eggs of a long-extinct race of the telepathic, dragon-like beings who first opened the Door at Ararat. The vile power of the magic involved twists them into vicious humanoids. More powerful blood mages can awaken more of these beings. The eggs of this pre-human race have great significance to the Padmassan blood and death cult, and Draconoids are sacred to them."

#name "Forge Dhoom"
#descr "In this rite, a stone monolith is infused with the malign intellect of ritually slain murderers and torturers. The resultant being is telepathically immensely powerful, and sheer terror reduces unrest in any province where it is located. The dhoom is immobile, but magically powerful enough to teleport itself, if the spell is known."
#descr "A stone infused with a malign intellect and vast telepathic powers. It's mere presence reduces unrest out of sheer terror."

#name "Befoul Priest"
#descr "A captured holy man is tortured to the brink of death and then surrounded with spilled innocent blood on each of the eight compass points. Thus shielded from good influences, he is posessed by a blasphemous spirit, who uses his priestly vessel to spread vile teachings."
#descr "A priest posessed by a vile and deceitful entity of the underworld. He has a cruel nature and vile appetites."

#name "Nietzschesque Sappho-Cannibalism"
#descr "Divine beings from a higher sphere are forced to possess thirteen and six score blood slaves, who are confined together in a small chamber. The second component of the rite drives the posessed blood slaves into a cannibalistic frenzy. As blood slaves butcher and eat one another, the beings from beyond consume one another's essence and also grow corrupt from the power of the spilled innocent blood. The surviving blood slave emerges triumphant; the engorged power of a celestial being combined with her own false innocence make her a powerful undead priestess and mage."
#descr "A posessed former blood-slave, the sole survivor of a cannibalistic frenzy. The celestial being with whom she has been fused has been utterly corrupted, but retains holy powers and magic of a celestial nature. She still hungers for human flesh."

#name "Summon Asi"
#descr "The blood of many innocents is spilled to resurrect one of the Asi, godlike three-headed dragons devoted to the destruction of all that is good."
#name "Asi"
#descr "The Asi are the three-headed dragons of death and darkness - each was originally tasked with corrupting a different element of the material world. Since they have been banished from the world by a previous pantokrator, they require human mages to serve as hosts. They adopt this human form in order to work magic, but like other dragons they are terrible in combat in their dragon form."

#name "The Will to Power"
#descr "The pursuit of pure power is the hallmark of the lords of Padmassa. The shedding of much innocent blood can transform the caster into a magical being, and enhance his sorcerous power."
#name "Mezzomaster"
#descr "The Mezzomaster is a High Circle master who has absorbed enough power from the Black Crystal to ascend and become a magical being. They are sorcerers of immense power."

#name "The Will to Power"
#descr "The pursuit of pure power is the hallmark of the lords of Padmassa. Having already murdered countless innocents, it is nothing for an aspiring dread lord to slaughter 101 more, allowing him to achieve immortality, and magnifying his power in all paths of magic."
#name "Dread Master"
#descr "The Dread Master is a High Circle master who has absorbed enough power from the Black Crystal to ascend and become a magical being - and immortal, to boot. They are sorcerers of awe-inspiring power."

#name "Thrall Child"
#descr "These wretched children have their humanity fed to the unspeakable beings beyond the Door, leaving them broken in body and spirit. By fitting them with Slave Collars forged by the Hags of Ararat, they can be driven into battle in front of the armies of padmassa. They are mindless beings who will dissolve, whimpering, without leadership. Mount Ararat generates a practically unlimited number of such broken children, but the collars needed to use them in battle are in short supply."

#descr "Only the most desperate and despicable serve the Dark God of Padmassa willingly. This cruel mercenary has been kitted out in heavy armor and mounted on a mighty Auroch, but he remains cowardly."

#descr "On occasion, a man devoured by the Black Crystal retains his skills and intellect. Lacking any sort of human feeling, these once-men are used both as scouts and as elite shock troops by the masters of Padmassa. On the one hand, their soul-less nature clouds the minds of their enemies, making them difficult to remember or detect; on the other, their hideous eyeless faces unman all but the bravest of warriors. They ride firce Aurochs in battle."

#name "Leathery-winged avian"
#descr "A true-breeding hybrid of a lizard and a bat, with limited telepathic capability. The dark masters of padmassa use these vile creatures as scouts and spies."

#descr "The Agent was once a virtuous individual of great skill and personal courage. The Black Crystal has taken his soul, but he retains his competence, and leads the Things Once Men. He also serves his masters as a spy and assassin, riding by night on a fierce Auroch."

#descr "The High Circle master has begun the process of empowering himself by consuming the souls drawn by the power of the Black Crystal. These souls enable the High Circle Master to command the terrible beings found on the other side of the Door of Ararat. The New God has won their loyalty with the promise of Immortality - the High Circle Master is willing to do anything to achieve this goal! He is evil all the time! He does not take holidays or weekends off!"

#descr "The promise of power lures unscrupulous wise women into the service of Padmassa. Their healing skills are twisted to the service of the terrible New God, and they are exceptionally skilled at gathering blood slaves to be used as brood mares for the armies of buck-imps. Once skilled midwives, these witches turn their skills to ensuring that their charges survive only long enough to birth warriors of Padmassa. Their administrative duties give them the experience needed to lead troops of various kinds."

#descr "These witches have given themselves over as hosts for unspeakable evils from beyond the Door. Deprived of their humanity and cloaked in vile vapors, these broken beings toil away in the bowels of mount Ararat, forging weapons for the dark forces of Padmassa."

#descr "When a holy man is fed to the Black Crystal, he sometimes continues in a mockery of the religious services he performed in life. Originally in a grim act of humor, the High Circle Masters would attend and participate in these debased rites, in all appearances of seriousness and piety. Now, they have decreed that these unwholesome rituals are for the honor and glory of the new God."

#descr "The great hag is a witch who has conquered and dominated the unnatural being with which she shares her consciousness and body. They are mighty sorceresses and fierce warriors, cloaked in the icy cold from beyond the spheres."

and I've got some more (based on monsters from the Dark Crystal, for example) but I'm still working on those.

Re: Wu-shan, Holmgard and Padmassa
 

This sounds really excellent, Dr Praetorious-especially since I'm a big fan of the Dark Crystal. I look forward to playing with these Nations.

Re: Wu-shan, Holmgard and Padmassa
 

Looks like some Eaters of the Lotus action with MA Wu-Shan! I love the idea, Chinese style Wuxia epics deserve a place in Dominions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Wu-shan, Holmgard and Padmassa
 

I have a guilty desire to see a mod based (atleast a little bit) on Big Trouble In Little China http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Wu-shan, Holmgard and Padmassa
 

No, not oil! The black blood of the earth!

It takes a misc slot, it gives you +15 hit points, +5 strength, +2 attack and defense, and +10 morale.

It costs EEEEES and construction 6.

And, of course, late era wu-shan can summon "storm warriors", who have those cool straw peasant hats and are armed with lightning fists..... or, if we get the ability to add unique summons of our own, there would be three of them - thunder, lightning and rain.

This elevator only goes down.
 

"These Chinese symbols, they're numbers, counting backwards." "Not backwards...downwards!"

"I am the past that haunts you, Lo-Pan!"
wu-shan sorcerors have extremely long life-spans

How about a 6 demon bag?
"it's full of wind, fire...all that stuff"

"I don't wanna have to kill you, tough guy."
How about a unit that can change shape-from an ordinary human into an enormous trampler, when they're badly injured, like Rain when he blows up?

"Us Chinese have a lot of hells."
Blood summons-demon from the hell of being cut to pieces, demon from the hell of the upside-down sinners, demon from the hell of being boiled alive.

And ofcourse, Pretender type: Chin'Dai, god of the east!

We Demand More Hells!!! Part Deux:
 

Ok, upon researching a bit, I've discovered that the actual "Chinese Hells" mentioned in the movie are
as follows:

The Hell of Being Cut to Pieces
The Hell of Boiling Oil
The Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
The Hell of the Vast Cold (in deleted scene)
The Hell Where People are Skinned Alive
The Hell of the Oily Dragon

...Indeed!

Re: We Demand More Hells!!! Part Deux:
 

Those are good, I was going to go the Shadowfist route and have -

Demon of Corrupted Land (nature)
Demon of Corrupted Mountains (earth)
Demon of Corrupted Thunder (air)
Demon of Corrupted Winds (air)
Demon of Corrupted Waters (water)
Demon of Corrupted Fires (fire)

plus...
Demon of Corrupted Marsh (death)
Demon of Corrupted Heaven (astral)

which you'd need to take blood/X on your god in order to summon. The Demon of Corrupted Heaven is furthermore sacred.

But, hey - more demons = more fun.

The 6 demon bag should probably be unique, and it should probably cast no less than six elemental damaging spells?

Possibly a bonus to all elemental magic, instead. We'll see what item modding lets us do, when it comes out.

Re: We Demand More Hells!!! Part Deux:
 

I hope item-modding comes out soon, that's going to be HUGE.

DrPraetorious, as to your Hells being elemental in nature, that's perfectly fine, but...you might want to consider more interesting names for them, like:

"Demon of Corrupted Wisconsin"
"Demon of Corrupted Chocolate Cherry Bontons"
"Demon of Corrupted Ford Escalade"
"Demon of Corrupted Wu-Tang Clan"
and "Demon of Corrupted 2000 Florida Presidential Ballot-Count"

(Folks, let's see if the good Dr. can figure out my point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Re: We Demand More Hells!!! Part Deux:
 

This sounds very nice indeed, its good to know people are putting this ammount of work into mods for us.

Re: We Demand More Hells!!! Part Deux:
 

Yes, I love the mods that we have (they've inspired me to create my own, and if I ever have any free time-I'm married, and I have a full-time job, so it's not likely-I'm going to create quite a few).

Please, if you enjoy a mod, let the creator know. Just as the Devs love to hear how much we enjoy and appreciate all the work they've put into Dom3 (and I appreciate it A LOT, Kristoffer and Johan, and all the other Johans, and everyone else involved), so do the players who create mods for everyone to enjoy-and the players don't even get paid!

Re: We Demand More Hells!!! Part Deux:
 

Wind, fire, that sort of thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Martial arts nations...
 

Wouldn't mind seeing a nation based heavily on that sort of theme. EA TC obviously has such vibes with the Warriors of the Five Elements, and the one Immortal, but with WFE being capital-only and fairly fragile the inclination is to rely on other troops (I like the Celestial Soldiers in particular; fewer friendly-fire casualties than with the flyers, given my fondness for massing archers) on larger maps.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

W/FE aren't the toughest units in the world by any means, but with a good Bless on them, combined with the ease of massing them-even Capital only it's not hard, if you concentrate on them-they can be really dangerous, since any and every Bless effect is going to help them out a lot. EA T'C also has lovely Pike militia for cheap-these should also be massed in large numbers (as should T'C archers if you're using an Air-bless), as they greatly compliment the W/FE.

It would be nice if each element had it's own form of kung-fu master, probably as a summons.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Deleted.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

The way I would do it would be to have summons which kicked out a W/FE lookalike sacred which when they were badly wounded would transform into a more powerful elemental-based unit. Your enemy wouldn't know what kind of unit they'd be up against until they successfully attacked them, because they'd look just like W/FE, and you could combine them in armies with "normal" W/FE.

The concept comes disturbingly close to Power Rangers, but let's try not to admit that to ourselves or each other, shall we?

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

So, what happened to this project?

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

I'm working on them somewhat slowly.

Most of my work is going into the Black Tome, and the whole modding operation kinda went on hiatus after Frank left the forum.

If anyone else wants to volunteer artwork, that'd be keen.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

I can probably chip in some artwork at some point in the nearish future. I guess Padmassa would make the most sense since you've done the code, so tell me which unit you want done and give me a little flavour to work from (like cultural influences etc) :]

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Padmassa is meant to be Asyrian or Persian.

Mainly, I need units mounted on Aurochs (bulls) with various weaponry. I can slightly adapt sprites once they're drawn (so change the armor or color-scheme around) but I'm no good even at changing weaponry.
Lessee...
Units are size 2 (3 if mounted) unless otherwise noted. Feel free to recommend existing sprites if you think I should use them.

(mounts)
Auroch (brown bull)
Auroch with barding (black bull)
Demonic Auroch with barding (white, red eyes)
Holy Auroch with barding (golden colored)
Aurochs are slightly larger than horses but still size 3.

(early era)
misc -
floating black-stone sphere (size 5).
gray-colored lizard man with bronze armor, spear, shield
garthim (the things from Black Crystal.) can be whatever size, really, it's hard to tell from the movie. They look kinda like giant spiders and one of the existing spider pics would do.

buck-imps - hopefully should all look the same:
buck-imp (funny looking humanoid) with long spear, javelin, hide shield
buck-imp with bone bow, hide shield
giant buck-imp (buck-troll) with axe, great hide shield (size 3).

children-
child with club and hide shield
child with spear

posessed regalia - red and white color scheme
priest in robe
blood slave in similar regalia, but more elaborate
vampire with two swords, chain mail
knight on demonic auroch, sword+lance, bronze armor
hag (size 3) is big, also green and hideous, has some kind of magic implement (presently a sceptre but could be a hammer or staff, doesn't matter.)
a human female (size 2) in the same regalia, with the same implement, as the hag.

villains-
one with short bow and buckler, I could use existing sprite but it'd be nice if it matched the following
villain with glaive and buckler
villain on auroch, with whip, mace and javelin
villain on auroch, with whip and bow

false knights - humans in black
all are mounted on an auroch (not barded), with lance, ring mail and a kite shield. Armament is choice of axe, flail (yes, one handed) or mace.

faceless - humans in black and red with no faces (obviously on this scale you can't draw that). I changed my mind about them having fangs - they have no mouths now. Cobra!
one in heavy armor on a barded aurochs, with magic sword, lance and kite shield.
A commander version of the same unit (can have a plume or something.)
a faceless in a tattered robe

circle master regalia - should look like circle masters, ideally.
High Circle Master - should have a hat.
Mezzomaster - should have a hat, and like, a glow or an aura or something. Could be blue, or partially transformed into a reptile. Optional size 3.

(middle era)
abyssians on aurochs -
Ideally these guys should all be red-skinned, since they are abyssians. They wear chain instead of plate. ** = I also want a commander version of this unit, which should look different enough that it's not a pain during combat.
light lance, shield, javelin, auroch. Is a scout (wears brown?) **
lance, kite shield, pick, auroch.
kite shield, flail, auroch.
axe, axe, barded auroch. **
lance, kite shield, sword, barded auroch.
steel crossbow,lance,axe,flail,barded auroch. Is elite, should look it.
magic shield, magic lance, magic javelin, magic sword, holy auroch. Is ultra-elite, should look it. **

In addition, I want a winged abyssian (crossbred with Caelumites, long story). Ideally would be red skinned with white feathered wings (like a Seraph.) Magic shield, magic hammer, magic bow - is ultra-elite, should look it. **

Humans-
Most of the humans can use existing light infantry pics.
I'm having trouble finding pics on google of zoroastrian regalia, but the stuff is almost all white. There is some on display at the museum of natural history, but I can't find anything about it on their webpage.

http://www.w-z-o.org/imgs/the-enligh...t-message1.jpg
http://sangha.net/messengers/zoroaster.htm

That's for Ashavan, though - not sure what Magi actually wore. Generally depicted in western art wearing all kinds of paisley and embroidery but I don't think that's accurate.

An Ashavan. This is a limited-magic zoroastrian priest. Wears white.
A Magu. Could use existing Magi picture but I'm not sure the green robe is right.
A High Magu. Could use existing high Magi picture.
A Rab Magu. Has an enormous seed-pod hat, say, very long beard, maybe.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

So auroch units are most important?

I'll get an auroch template done. Other than that, it's best to stick to the early era stuff for the moment I figure. I think it's also a good idea to get the graphics done which are least like substitute dom3 ones. As for which subs you could use, I suggest you look through the 'filing cabinet' map so you can see all the monster artwork in vanilla. Some of that stuff would work fine.

The children, auroch units and buck imps need graphics most urgently I figure, so I'll start with them. Children dressed in rags ok? Any particular colour? Are they wearing slave collars?
Buck-imps wise, give me a little bit more info. Colour? Are they the same size as humans, hunched over,...? Do you want them to stick out (brightish colours) or be drab and nasty looking? (brown rags etc)

I googled aurochs and got a lot of nice material. I can give the more important aurochs longer horns, maybe metal spikes/caps attached to the horns ala war elephants etc.

I find doing graphics more relaxing than doing codes, but I'm not a great artist by any means, so you could probably use some other people helping and/or learning to do more yourself graphics wise. My first couple of efforts at dom3 graphics were pretty awful, but I got the hang of it quick enough.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

The children are wearing slave collars. Rags probably, certainly no armor.

The Buck Imps are wearing bone armor (the troll is in leather, though.) So the armor should probably be off-white, beige or light gray. They're supposed to be about 5' tall but heavy set, and they probably have lousy posture to boot. I recall that they came in a number of different colors, including black and green. It's been a while since I read the books, though. Green skin and off-white armor would look cool. They don't look human, and don't look cheerfully garish or silly.

This isn't my first foray into pixel art - I did some for Warlords II and III, for example. I tried extensively before concluding that I was just no good at it. I have a very poor sense of what is even recognizable - it's not so much that what I try to draw is ugly, as that people can't tell what it's supposed to be, which is pretty disastrous.

Anyway, thanks!
-TNDP

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Cool. I did some stuff for W3:DLR - made several warhammer based nations. But the pixel art there was too time consuming, making all the frames. Bleh.

I'll go with greenish or ruddy skin for the imps. Heavy, not gangly. Bone armour. Gotcha.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Ahahahahah. Oh man it's harder to do auroch cavalry than I thought. I made three prototypes and decided to go with one of them, then promptly messed it up and overwrote a good save of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Long story short the reason I'm laughing is I decided to see what my second favourite prototype looked like mounted,.. then I got seriously carried away. The end result is attached and is one weird looking cavalry.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

And here's a grey lizardman I knocked up based on a modified exile graphic.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Nice! Thanks!

How do you want to be credited?

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

With cash? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Heheh. No credit needed. Are you relatively happy with the look of the auroch? (forget the rider, that one I did doesn't really look like any of the units you described, I just got carried away) I had some other shapes I was working on; one that looked more like a buffalo and so on.

The lizard is finished though. I can give you the tgas or you can just make them from that bmp.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Will make from bmp.

I rather like the black rider with a whip - the auroch is quite handsome. I might use him as a hero.

I'll just credit you as sombre - unless you want not to be associated with the image library http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Ok after ten minutes or so tinkering with barding I have something more to show and need input. I don't know much about Persian or Assyrian barding, but I googled it and found some pictures and I also had a book with some nice sassanid heavy barding in it, so I started a couple of barding prototypes. Not trying to make a polished looking graphic, just get the design of the barding/saddle roughly right. I had a more complicated design but in the end this simple one

It's not finished at all, it's basically just a rough marker showing where the barding will be. You could also use it as a placeholder I guess, although it would look pretty bad ingame. Anyway, I need to know if this was the kind of barding you had in mind, or if you wanted less, or some other style entirely. This has kind of a cataphract feel to it but you can still see the colour of the auroch underneath and there's lots of opportunity for detail on top. A closeup of a persian barding pic is above it. Lemme know what you think. I figure this is good experience if I want to start messing around with other weird kinds of cavalry :]

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Holy crap. I just realised I'm going to HAVE to make zebra/gazelle/alpaca/camel cavalry now. Seriously.

Well I was planning on making some kind of machaka mixed with north africa thing in the future, so I guess it's all cool.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

That is, in fact *exactly* what I had in mind.

I'd originally called those units "Cataphracts" rather than "Knights" but decided the terminology was too confusing. Whada ya think?

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Cataphracts would be fine. I think a lot of people would know the term, or instantly figure out what it meant. Or you could just use 'heavy cavalry' or 'shock cavalry' or something.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

That's not the problem, but "lacking in cataphractly virtue" just doesn't quite cut it. There is an equivalent Persian concept but it applies to warriors in general. Part of it is that it isn't strictly Asyrrian, it's got all sorts of evil influences from other source material.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Well you can change the description I'm sure. There are thousands of ways of suggesting that they're a cruel and ill disciplined lot. You could mention that they've grown spoiled and decadent what with all the slaves and young virgins (boys and girls) and would much rather die of sex-related diseases than a big sword through the face in the middle of a battle.

Maybe "The concept of virtue is as foreign to them as mercy"

Something like that.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Attached is my take on the 'False knight' / cataphract / evil cowardly heavy cavalry / thingy.

The reason there are 4 pics (8 including attack sprites) is simple. I made a gold one, changed the shield and couldn't decide if it looked better or not, then quickly made 'silver/iron/steel' versions as well. I have no idea which would be best for your purposes, although that much iron or steel barding kinda wouldn't make sense in the early era, so I'd guess the gold/bronze one is better.

I really like 'em. I'm quite excited about a future matchup between evil cowardly persian-esque Padmassans and equally evil but suicidally brave spartan-esque Argans.

Let me know what you think. Any of you :]

And yes, I know they don't exactly fit a description you gave, other than being assyrian(ish).

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

They look good, and I do prefer the bronze version - both aesthetically and for historicity. I should probably fiddle with the units equipment somewhat. I prefer the better-defined shield (on the lower right.)

Should I have three versions for the three different types of armament? The lance is always the same, and independent heavy cavalary always use the same picture regardless of whether they have swords or maces or whatever as secondary armament.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

You shouldn't look to indep cavalry but the nations that currently have multiple types of cavalry of similar types: Sauromatia and (LA) Tien Chi. The units can be told apart from each other.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

But those are substantially different. We're just talking subweapons here. I personally think there's no need for different graphics.

Further, I think there's no need for three identical lance cavalry units with the only difference being the subweapons.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

I also think there's no need for three identical lance cavalry units with different set of weapons, but if our good Doctor decides to go with the idea, I'd suggest a slightly altered list. The indie knights/heavy cavalry use Broad Swords, Morning Stars and Hammers. Morning Stars are pretty much 1-handed flails as far as mechanics go. Ulm uses hammers, monkeys use maces. Only the most barbaric troops use clubs and/or maces instead of either more advanced or biggers weapons (quarterstaves, iron cudgels, great clubs etc).

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Well, it does make a significant difference, actually.

The Flail (which is what most people will use) is best for cutting down light infantry-with-shields, which abound in the early era. So for early conquest, you'd only use these. I've considered adding a "horseman's flail" (or "light flail") which has a smaller damage bonus and less reach, since it's supposed to be a one-handed weapon - the current 1H flail has the same stats as a 2H flail, but I think it's a legacy or giant weapon.

The Cudgel sounds like an odd weapon to give to cavalry. However, it's +3 DEF (vs the Flail) and +2 DEF (vs the Axe) which really confers a lot of survivability. Right now this is a "stick", was a "mace". I'm considering adding a "cudgel" - both for the name and to give another +1 DEF (so a one-handed quarterstaff.) I don't want to give them swords - good guys use swords.

Finally, the axe is what cataphracts historically used to cut through armor (hammers came later). Against armored foes or giants, that's what you want. This unit I'm a little skeptical of, I admit - it's not like you're going to survive multiple rounds of combat against giants, and your lance ought to deal with the bulk of an enemy's heavy infantry. If I tone down the 1H flail a bit this will become more attractive.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

No curvy scimitar/tulwar type swords?

I still think the difference in those weapons isn't going to matter much given that they all have lances and everything else is equal, although it depends how much armour your cavalry has. Then again ulmish infantry got lots of different equipment in MA and LA. If you're set on differentiating them, shield patterns are the way to do it.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Sure, orange shield, green shield, black shield? I can actually manage this in gimp - just use fill-selection and set the color opacity low.

I suppose I could add a Tulwar. They could have a "Poisoned Tulwar", essentially a +2 Def shortsword that poisons people. Is that too good?

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Looks fine to me. Which unit are you going to be using these for then? I think you said False Knights weren't going to ride barded aurochs.

Anyway, here are the auroch mount graphics I have that would probably be useful to you. I forgot to make the attack sprite for the non-barded auroch before creating the barding, which was a fairly big blunder. Anyway, maybe you can have a go at making one. The white barded auroch only has an attack animation because I was just messing about seeing how hard it was to do white flesh/fur. It looks ok, should be fairly easy to apply to the normal sprite.

I'm going back to working on Arga Dis and the other mods I've released for the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to help again shortly down the line.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

DrPraetorious, here are some suggestions for good melee-weapons for calvalry:

The shamshir-this is the Arabian horse-sabre that's often called-or confused with-a scimitar because of the relatively similar names and the fact that they're both unusual/specialized swords that come from the east of Europe (the Arabians got scimitars from the Mongols). The shamshir is a very long, extended saber, either very curved or often with a crook in the middle, which gives it a large area, or "sweet spot", when slashing downward, in which strikes will do the maximum damage-which makes it ideal for cutting down lighter-armored infantry.

Tulwar (or "Talwar", sometimes with an L on the end). This is an Indian sword that is typified by having a blade that is straight for half it's length and then broadening out and curving back into a heavy slashing weapon. Typically shorter than a Shamshir, it's still very effective for close-quarters fighting from horseback, because of the heavy chopping end. This is similar in design to the Turkish "Kilij". The Turks also used swords very similar in design to the Shamshir. These weapons are much more redolent of the typical "scimitar", but usually lack the deep curve and wide triangular flair on the back-blade that seems to typify the "fantasy" or dungeons and dragons version of a "scimitar". I actually-in almost 30 years of studying melee-weapons and antiques-have yet to come across a real world historical example of such a weapon, but I suppose it may be out there.

Guan Dao-technically, this is only a sometimes calvalry weapon, but it's unusually great weight (some surviving versions from around 1000 ad are actually known to weigh 100lbs or more) lends itself to calvary-as opposed to foot-use. It consists of a shaft between 4 and 6 feet long, tipped with a deep, heavy, curved blade that comes to a point-similar in form to a naginada. The blade is often ornately decorated. The lighter versions used in martial arts today typically weigh between 5 and 20lbs. A surviving example known as the "Green (or Blue) Dragon Crescent Blade" still exists and is on display at the Purple Cloud Temple in China today. It weighs approximately 49kg (around 110lb). Even though it's a real-world weapon that exists today, it's considered to be a magical weapon, since legend has it that it was made from the body of a green dragon. It's also known as the "Frost Blade". Light versions of this weapon-especially if they have reinforced handles-could potentially be devastating as calvalry weapons, since they could be used both as light lances-best against unarmored or lightly armored foes-and as long, slashing weapons with relatively large "sweet-spots" and blades that won't easily break when slashing down, because of their depth and design.

Calvalry-hammer-this is a long-handled warhammer with a 1-2 lb head. Very effective against armored infantry, but a good all-purpose weapon.

Morning Star-another really good weapon against armor, it's got a metal ball on a long handle, and often the ball has short spikes or studs to maximize impact. It's often confused with a flail because of the ball and spikes, but no chain or moving parts are involved.

Calvalry-flail. This is usually lighter than a typical "footman's flail". Unlike the ball-and-chain, it consists of just two pieces-a long handle (maybe 24-36 inches) attached to a short striker by a single partition. The striker is typically studded or spiked over it's entire horizontal surface. The single partition (as in two chain links, one attached to the striker, one attached to the handle), as opposed to a longer chain, allows for greater control of the striker.

Ball-and-chain: It should be noted that, while flails with long chain partitions can and have been used by calvary-especially midieval knights-they're much more difficult to control than a typical calvalry weapon, and take a great deal more skill. They're much more effective as an "opening volley" or opportunistic weapon-like a heavy lance-than they are for extended military actions. The Ball-and-chain is a useful weapon in that it's easy to carry on a mount, has massive damage-potential against an armored foe, and it can be re-used, unlike a heavy lance which can be expected to eventually break or be lost in the heat of battle.

Lasso: This is a materials-cheap, obvious, but often overlooked, calvalry weapon. It can be used to entangle a foe, to trip, to break necks, ensnare weapons, and to drag an enemy behind your horse-a very effective way of putting him out of the fight. It's very concealable, readily available, and also makes a useful tool for civilian life, which all add to it's appeal. The only great expense incurred in using this weapon is the time to learn the necessary skills.

The Scythe: Another useful tool for civilian life, the scythe makes an effective calvalry weapon if you don't have anything more handy. It's somewhat unweildy, but it can potentially do a lot of damage very quickly to more than one foe at a time-especially when driven by the momentum of a horse. It was probably overlooked more for it's connections to peasantry and unappealing nature, than for it's military potential. Heavy modifications would probably have been made by any culture to use the scythe as a regular weapon.

I hope this helps.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Yay!! Military history lessons! They're my FAAVE! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ancient peoples must have been some bad-*** mofos to use weapons that could weigh so much (100 lbs. Are you freakin' kidding me!?) for extended periods of time. Thank you for the info Honeybadger.

And I liked the first release of Padmassa, but with Sombre's new graphics I want the upgrade!

Looks great so far guys. Keep up the good work.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

I'm of two minds about putting the False Knights (or whatever they end up called) on armored Aurochs.

On the one hand, the EA persians shouldn't have the stirrup. Which means that the lancers would need armor on the aurochs to help brace the lance-blow.

On the other hand, if I show them on armored aurochs, they should leave armored aurochs when they die and pay the resource cost for auroch barding, which might cripple the utility of the unit. The EA game is already non-historical in the sense that there are EA lancers on unarmored horses (and different EA nations are in different time periods anyway).

Does anyone know the persian name for a Tulwar? Since these guys are eeeevil, they get to dip their Tulwar in poison, which is a good buy for a high def/prot unit anyway.

The Guan Do sounds like a fascinating weapon, but isn't typical Cataphract armament.

I'm pretty sure that cavalry hammers came later. In any case, the in-game hammer would be sufficient. I believe that the early persians used various sorts of axes from horseback, for the same purpose (against armored legionaires, specifically).

Morningstars and ball and chain are European weapons exclusively, I believe. Persians definitely used a lot of maces, some of which might "qualify" as a morning star, by virtue of being, you know, spikey. The weapon is interchangeable with an axe, though, in terms of game mechanics (morning stars are slightly better, IIRC) - so no reason to give units with both.

Scythes and Lassos are definitely weapons for the mounted villains to consider, although not the false knights or the cataphracts. I don't think it's possible to mod entangling weapons yet, unfortunately.

Anyway, consider this:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
#newweapon xxx
#name "light flail"
#att 0
#dam 2
#def -2
#flail
#nratt 2
#len 2
#rcost 3
#end

#newweapon xxx
#name "poisoned tulwar"
#att 0
#dam 4
#def 2
#len 1
#secondaryeffect 54
#rcost 4
#end
</pre><hr />

There'd also be a regular tulwar lacking the poison for rcost 3. Thoughts? A tulwar is about the length of a saber, right? Is that len 1 or len 2?

I'm not at home and can't check the weapons table, so I might need to adjust some of those values.

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

Not possible to mod entangling weapons? Cant you just give them a renamed vinewhip or something?

Re: Martial arts nations...
 

I could give them a very low damage weapon with 'vinewhip' as a secondary effect. Or is the entangling on a vine whip already a secondary effect? I'll check when I get home.

There is no ability to "copystats" on a weapon, unfortunately.

history lesson, part deux
 

Yeah, I wasn't exclusively including Persian weapons, just because I figured you might want more variety.

"Shamshir" is the Persian word for sword, as well as being a specific type. They also used the straight Akinakes, the Greek-derived Xyphos, and the Kopis (with a blade rather similar to a Nepali kukri), but many Persian soldiers just carried large daggers.

They do seem to have used axes often. The Persian light battle axe is known as a Sagaris and it was used by calvalry-infact it was a Sagaris that almost killed Alexander the Great during the battle of Granicus.

Persians also used short thrusting spears (about 7 feet long) and the Palta, which was a javelin often used by calvalry. Just for the sake of completeness, Persian armies/footsoldiers also commonly used 10' long pikes, slings, and recurved bows.

An interesting fact about those short spears is, they often had counter-weights made from bronze or silver (gold for officers), and it was these counterweights that caused Persian troops to be known as "apple-bearers". Just thought it might help a bit when you're doing graphics for officers on foot.

Fighting from a bull, and going along with the whole bull-headed theme, maybe a bull-headed mace or axe? Using the horns to form blades or spikes on an ornate weapon might be decent. You could even possibly have a weapon similar to the one used by the warlord badguy at the end of Beastmaster, that can function as both a mace/axe type weapon and a flail.