Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I'm going to be creating a mod which takes several of the more suitable Pretenders and adds to their ability to fight in a Dom3 environment. Price will be scaled higher to compensate for reasons of balance, but the payoff will be surviveable Pretender-class SCs and hopefully new strategies and fun.

Basically what I'm going to do is take whatever combat qualities the Pretenders I'm going to modify have already, and extend them, in a realistic way. Stat numbers I'm going to leave alone unless I have a good reason to change them, but things like natural weapons, special abilities, resistances, slots, etc. will be modified where I feel it will better serve an SC Pretender.

In some cases, I may or may not have both the "vanilla" or a magic-user version of a given Pretender, alongside the modified SC version.

I'd like to get peoples' thoughts on this, if it's an exciting idea to put SCs back in the game, and any specific ideas for both modifying current Pretenders and adding new SC Pretenders.

So far I don't have a complete list of the Pretenders I'll be modifying, but the partial list (and some ideas) includes:
Destroyer of Worlds-2 extra arms, retouched image, possibly heals afflictions.
Scorpion King-adding armor slot, 1 extra pincer attack, darkvision, heals afflictions.
Wyrm-heals afflictions, extra head (or more), poison breath attack
Ancient Kraken-regeneration 5%, 2 extra attacks, extra misc slot.
Carrion Dragon-immortal, 5% regeneration.
Dagon-not sure yet, possibly 2 extra arms and a retouched image, possibly heals afflictions.

I may possibly create a mod that has additional selections for all appropriate Pretenders wherein at a higher price you could choose an Immortal or an affliction healing version (or both) of most Pretenders.

Let me know what you think.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I think all those chassis can make fine SCs without mods.

Sometimes I think about making seriously overpowered units, that are SCs before even getting equipped.

flying, ethereal, high hp, with regen and healling afflictions, High stats, fire shield, and an AoE weapon of some sort -- maybe even through fear and awe in there.

I had something like that in Dom 2 mocked up - but honestly, it wasn't any fun to play with.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

It's not to make them overpowered units-in that you have like 30 of them or something, it's to make a given Pretender a potential SC.

Very few Pretenders make good SCs (yes, there's lots of Pretenders who make good thugs and what have you, but put them up against a decent army and they're the main ingredient in god-chowder)

The only ones that currently have a chance to solo without being turned into kibble are the Gorgon, the Ancient Kraken, and the Carrion Dragon-all of which are very tough, and all of which are able to heal afflictions.

I'm not trying to make or have any interest whatsoever in creating units which would somehow "break the game". I'm talking about making units which are decent but underpowered for the conditions of Dom3, and turning them into units you can use (IF you choose such a strategy) as Pretender SCs in the vein of Dom2.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I dunno man, I have a wished for destroyer of worlds that seems to eat those decent sized armies, (and even an army of devils) without any problem.

I guess I haven't tried it out in MP at all, so that might be a different arena -- but you and I seem to be witnessing a different result from the same chassis.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

The problem in Dom 3 that the potential SC faces isn't with other potential SCs, it's with the sheer number of units on either side of the battlefield. I wouldn't want to make these SCs more powerful objectively for no good reason as some kind of crazy power-trip. That's why the Dev Gods invented cheat-codes. I'd just like to make chassis which will cost considerably more to purchase, but will give the return of being able to function profitably on the front lines of more than one large battle.

As it stands, yes you can invest a huge amount of time, effort, research, and gems, and turn any decent combat Pretender into an SC-which won't be very useful by the end of the game. I'd like to give the option of purchasing a god chassis which can take out independents on it's own, repeatedly, and allow for quick solo expansion, as a viable strategy and without ending up with a badly crippled, worse than useless Pretender.

I can see a lot of usefulness in concentrating your Nation on a single unit, but why force the entire Nation to be invested, long-term, in such a project when the outcome is only one unit?

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Destroyer of Worlds isn't a bad chassis, just because it's got 4 arms. It's not great for the price though, since it's basically just a slightly more powerful Nataraja, which would cost 0 unless I'm mistaken-certainly not 125.

It can easily be afflicted, cursed, horror-marked, etc. The downside of the SC happens in MP when your human opponent targets your SC and does nasty long-term damage to it. That's going to happen regardless of how well equipped your SC is.

Making a select number of SCs more powerful against conventional armies is my goal, not against human-run SC-kill-squads.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

and you want them functional out of the box?

I recall that whenever I made a pretender mod and the pretenders could be used like that in early expansion, everyone called them "overpowered"

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Have you tried GK? It's not even that pricey and pretty useful in the late game for forging and summonning of what otherwise would be inaccessible.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Want to make something powerful?
Give it as many of the following as possible:
Immortal,(True?)Etheral,Regeneration,Awe,Fear,Flyi ng,Lucky,some AoE Shield,Sneaking,Glamour. And there are more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

There was a Dom2 mod making all Pretenders recover from afflictions, I think this is a good idea and enough to avoid having useless pretenders.
Having some even more powerful chassis is prone to unbalance the game with some players able to wipe out others very early, so I'm not sure to want it.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Actually most listed pretenders can be good SCs with dominion 9/10 up to mid game, except against death nations. Pretenders causing fear and trampling like Dagon are especially good (it's a good example of a pretender not really needing a buff, just give him a high dom and high water or earth, add a reinvigoration item and some cons 2/4 protective gear and he will trample entire armies without a scratch).

The now weak pretenders are more the various titans without natural protection, fear, trampling, etc... By the time you fully equip them with sufficiently good items armies with mages can kill any SC. Recuperation is not the big issue at this point, as nature magic is the most common any nation can usually forge a ring of regeneration.

The big weakness of SCs (as well as big pretenders in general and prophetized thugs) after early game is more ennemy dominion. Once medium magic levels are researched, SCs will always take some dammage or be targeted by anti-sc spells, and it becomes risky to use them out of relatively friendly dominion (say not under -3). But if you are attacking you can't know where the ennemy dominion is low (first turn your SC invade a province with low ennemy dominion near one of your dominion, second turn... he can't continue further without big risk as you can't see the dominions). It makes SCs very predictible, as the ennemy knows which provinces dominions you may see, and in this short list he can be quasi sure you won't attack the ones with high dominion. Finally pretenders/battle prophets become not far to be useless in attack mostly because of that. I think the best change to make them more usable after early game would be to let see dominions of all provinces neighboring one of yours or where you have a scout (in addition to dominions of all provinces neighboring your dominion). -but of course it's out of the moddable bonuses topic-.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I don't think this is true. Solo what exactly? Any giant humanoid pretender, preferably with awe and magic for buffs, like fire for Fire Shield, Astral for Luck, Body Ethereal and Astral Shield, etc. outfitted with items can solo armies of AI rabble. Against a human any SC can be taken out.

Do you want a pretender that can take indies solo early on? There are many that can do that already.

Do you want one that can solo AI armies? Take a pretender with magic effective for buffs and all item slots.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Twan makes a good point about dominion. I rarely use the pretender as an SC since the negative hitpoints will make him much less useful when attacking.

Elemental Kings and Queens and various different Devils make the best SCs, IMO.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Yea, I agree with Twan and Teraswaerto, the most effective use of both your pretender and prophet when at war is in defense of your own lands, especially those with high dominion. I now always use my pretender as a quasi SC to protect my homelands and my prophet as a thug.

For example a dragon can have 350+ hps and a prophet upto 100 hps protecting your strong dominion homelands. Take them into enemy dominion and your dragon will drop to barely over 100 hps, your prophet to as low as 8 hps. As far as combat is concerned they are both defensive units really.

It's unique summons that you should be looking at to make the best SC's.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Lord of Night is a kickass assassin already (titan, stealth, flies, summons help, is assassin without needing a black heart, which means all slots are available, and a touch of magic) but its only available to Mictlan as far as I know. You might only need to make it available to more nations just to have abit of variation in what you are offering.

SC for the Long Game
 

I should have mentioned that this mod would be intended more for the "long game" or atleast longer than the minimum, as the modified Pretenders may give an unfair advantage in a blitz-game.

I feel they could still be used-and will be balanced for use-in a blitz-game, but others' opinions may differ.

I have the disadvantage of assuming that others will think in the same directions I do, and I tend to focus on particulars without explaining the--to me--more obvious elements, so I appologise for that, and for any further confusion.

My point here is to potentially make your Pretender your "best SC" if someone should choose to do that as a strategy, while paying for it in other areas. And notice that I'm not suggesting adding a lot of buffs, mostly just things which will help the Pretender survive over a long duration.

Basically, it gives you the option of playing a "Roving Monster" strategy, where your nation is geared up to support 1 single out-of-the-box SC from the beginning of the game, and then using the profits from that strategy to "industrialize" the rest of your nation by mid-game, so that you are narrow but powerful in the early game but then have to focus on broadening your options by the end game. It makes for a risky strategy-especially against humans-but a decent and fun option, and I think a fitting strategy for Dom3.

I like the idea of being able to have your Pretender at the head of your army in more than just last-ditch defense efforts. I also like the idea of your Pretender being ready to go "out of the box" at a high price, but then becoming more marginalized as the game proceeds.

If someone wants to use their Pretender in a more active role, I think they should have the option to do so. That's not to say that I want to make them wildly powerful, there are ways in the game to do that already. It just at once makes your Pretender both the strength and weakness of your nation, which I feel can be quite thematic.

Primarily, I have to admit that I am concerned with the recovering from afflictions issue, but there are other things that can be tweaked, on an individual basis. I believe that most of the Pretenders in the game now were designed to be used in Dom1 or Dom2.

Some gentle, rational retrofitting should not only be expected, but desired, since it's obvious to everyone I've heard from that Dom2 and Dom3 are very different animals.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I really like the Lord of the Night, Gandalf, but I'm not sure he needs modification. I agree it would be nice to have him or something similar available to more nations.

Is Dagon a trampler? I can't check right now because I'm at work.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Yes he is.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

That's a nice trait for him to have. I'm thinking about giving him a weapon, a massive pillar of basalt which horror-marks whatever it hits, to play up on the Lovecraftian "feel".

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Weapon + trampler + size 6 = weapon rarely used.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Trampling Pretenders seem to suck because they're always fatiguing out and dying. I'd love the Shedu if only it wasn't so prone to this behavior. It takes a LOT of regen to keep up with trampling.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I assume that would be reinvig?

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Yeah, Dagon wouldn't often need to use the basalt pillar, which makes it a reasonable addition. Perhaps the basalt pillar could have a soul-vortex ability to reinvigorate and regenerate Dagon?

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I wouldn't make dagon into an SC type pretender for a couple of reasons: he's got three points of magic, high dominion, good stats, and is amphibious. He's too much of an all-rounder all ready. If you add SC type capabilities, he'd be over powered, or he'd cost like 250 points. IIRC he also has relatively cheap new paths.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

I kind of like the idea of a single new pretender being made available who is just a big well-hung thug. No real magic, nothing special, just a hugely, oppressively, physically powerful mountain of pain to whomever gets in his way.

Make him extremely expensive so you can't afford much of anything else for your empire. Don't make him ethereal, radiate heat, or anything else like that. Just big, mean, and immortal. Minor regeneration maybe, to keep him from getting too many afflictions at once. No flight. Nothing esoteric or glamourous. Just raw physical power.

He would be overwhelming in the first few years, then gradually less powerful until you started outfitting him, then it would level out. You would still have the best SC, but s/he would be no more powerful than an army of mages. Less in fact. A single mage could instant death him easily, since his/her magic resistance would be fairly normal. That's why s/he should be immortal....

Making all Pretenders super powerful might be unbalancing, HoneyBadger; but making a metaphorical Elephant unit among infantry Pretenders would just be plain fun.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

What was the name of Conan's god? Krog? Something like that. This could be a great god for the barbarians or cave men....

I'm just throwing this out there:
ST 50
Hits 500
att 15
def 15
mor 30
mr 15

Make him a berserker? Bare minimum low level fear maybe?

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

You'd need berserk to have a chance at balancing something like that with sphinx-like hp. Especially since it can regenerate with a ring.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

If that thing is immortal then, with dom10, we have something very nasty(would need to be start dom1-2 and pathcost like 80)

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Krog!?!? Crom http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif will eat your heart, regurgitate it, and then make you eat it! What blasphemy.

Kill the next 5 people you meet, as penance, preferably while listening to Anvil of Crom.

Re: Bringing Back the Super Combatant
 

Why does everyone think I'm trying to make Pretenders super powerful?

I'm talking simple, straightforward, relatively minor, rational, sensible additions, atleast 99% of the time (incase anyone is suffering under the mistaken impression that I'm perfect).

These changes, additions, tweaks, will only be there to either 1: balance certain Pretenders that I consider unbalanced (such as Destroyer of Worlds) 2: create new strategies, or 3: make Pretenders more interesting (as opposed to making them more powerful for no reason).

Now I want to explain to anyone who considers me to be a fruit fresh off the fruitcake. I've been playing and designing games for 20 years. All kinds of games, mostly strategy and/or RPG games. I'm just as aware of the value of continuity of balance in a game as the next person, and I don't have any desire to turn Dom3 into a personal power-trip.

If I were going to do something like that, there are plenty of easier ways to go about it. I just want to make Pretenders, in general and specifically, more fun, more interesting, more useful in Dom3.

Thank you.