What is the problem with SE5?
 

I have read a lot of complaints about the game and while I admit there is work to be done I also strongly voice my faith that things will work out and SE5 will become a top notch; if not the top notch 4X game. Till SE6 that is! Anyway what I don't understand is just what the main complaint is here? I hear 20 people give 20 different answers each for a total of 400 answers and many of which are repeats. So I want to get my misunderstanding cleared up once and for all!

Without a lengthy discourse as to the nature of the problem what is the ONE problem you have with SE5? The one and only one that eats you up more than any others?

Please repeat others if you must; however, if you repeat a problem that is your one and only answer so don't give another. What is my goal here you may ask? Well mainly I don't seem to have the problems others are having, although I do have my complaints they are "game breakers" not "game slowers" or "hinderers", or whatever! You know what I mean! Also I would like to clearly see what the problems are so I can tell if they are things modders can work at fixing. Please lets try to keep on topic and not have this devolve into an argument over which game is better or anything like that.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

As I understand it, the main gripe is that most people don't want to play a game that's so buggy out of the box. These people don't see modding potential and typically never bother looking at what the community is doing. They see the stock game, play it for about 15 minutes, and give up at the first bug they run into. SE5 isn't as skin-pretty as some of the more mainstream games, and unfortunately that is what gets most gamers hooked. If it doesn't have a nicely polished exterior with 5,000-particle explosions, pixel shaders, and fancy ragdoll physics (or water simulation), and especially if it has any bugs you can find within the first 5 minutes of playing, most gamers tend to lose interest pretty quick.

This is also why SE5 gets bad reviews. Reviewers may spend alot more time with a game than Joe Sixpack (the good ones have to - even if they hate it), but in the end thier primary audience is still the casual gamer since they are responsible for the majority of business in the industry. Reviewers who enjoy mods or patched versions of an initially buggy game will still give it a bad review because they understand that most of the people who are reading thier reviews don't have the patience to dig into the game's community or look for patches. The best reviewers will still mention the game's modding potential, and its dedicated community, but only as an afterthought and it will not affect the score they give.

There is precident for a properly patched game to get "re-reviewed" later on and get a better score. CGW re-reviewed X3 after it had been patched quite a bit and gave it a better review than they did initially. So there's still a chance for SE5 Gold to be a big hit right out of the box, but alot of that depends on us, the modders. (This is speculation, I don't know if there will be an SE5 Gold, but it could be a good business move, if it can include enough content to be worth going to retail).

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

My point of view is that most people are....

1.) Upset about about the number of bugs.
2.) Upset with the interface.

My point of view is that Aaron will either fix all of these problems in SE5, or by in SE6 - but personally I think Aaron needs to consider taking SE6 in a more modern direction than the other games.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

3.) They bought MOO3 (they were moo2 fans) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Define a "more modern view"

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

As unfinished as the game is, what's really breaking it for me is the AI, and it's doubtful I'll actually <play> the game more before that part has been vastly improved. It's just not interesting( especially with stock tech tree ) when there's no competition at all. Heck, you can play player vs 20 AIs on hard and max bonus and never have any fear of actually loosing. You can only go through the tech tree and watch the AI do amazingly silly and uninteresting things so many times before growing bored.

Other than that it's really just the bugs, incosistencies with the data files and functions( for modding purposes ), etc. that's bugging me. And, obviously, the UI.

What's of a somewhat greater concern, though, is the fact that the game didn't really bring with it anything new, or change anything significant. Well, except going from turn-based to real-time combat, but that's a *very* subjective improvement. I am, in fact, having more fun playing SE IV than I am playing SE V. They are the same game, but SE IV comes in a more finished and user-friendly package.

I was sort of hoping for more of a MoO2 -> MoO3 sort of change( without the whole 'was never finished' aspect ), especially regarding planets and economy, which MoO3 does insanely more complex and better than SE. I understand making the game this complex would probably be a nightmare for Aaron on a code-level, though. I just feel we need something new and fresh, something to set it apart from the previous games.

Until then I'll just be doing some modding and stuff for SEV, while waiting for the AI update that will make the game challenging. And some interesting mods.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

To me the interface of SE5 could be a lot simpler and a lot more modern by embracing the concepts of usability and accessibility that are being adopted across various tech industries.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

I don't think anyone has actually read my post. I am asking what is <font color="blue">your one personal gripe with SE5</font> that you would like to see fixed. I am not asking what you think is other peoples opinion. None of this helps me to understand anymore than before. Raapy you came the closest to answering my question but you still gave me how many answers?

ONE Problem
ONE Answer

Thats all nothing else. What ONE thing would you like to see fixed if you cold wave a magic wand and fix only one thing? We can discuss the ins and outs and details later. Right now lets get a focus on what one thing is eating you!

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Question: Was a complete solution ever found to the problem of fleets appearing outside the retreat zone, immediately ending combat, repeating the attacks over and over again, occasionally losing troop transports (and glassing the planet) or attack ships (sending the lone troop transport on a suicidal invasion attempt) and ending up with multiple "ghost" fleets surrounding the planet, that have to be recombined consuming moves, before attacking again, only to have the same happen again?

I didn't see a specific entry in the patch history for all these problems that I experienced.

Manually moving them at the start of combat didn't work for me as well as I would have liked. And of course, manual movement is not an option for the A.I. either against the human opponent or A.I. vs. A.I.

How is everyone managing to play on PBW, with this problem in force. Is it fixed and I just missed the solution?

[EDIT]

If fixed, then, oops, sorry. If it's not fixed, then, that would be my problem with SE5.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

It's hard to pin frustrations with SE5 on any one problem, but with that said - I'll take a buggy game with a intuitive and great interface over a non-buggy game with a byzantine interface.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

You are all correct, what more can be said?

I too get extremely frustrated with SE 5 UI's lack of intuitiveness and generally believe that next to game crashing bugs, weak AI, and nescience bugs, the UI is the largest problem with the game.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

The UI -- if I click on a hex containing a planet and several other items (ships, sats, etc) it is more difficult to choose the one you want (right click doesn't work) and give it orders.

Why cant I just click and drag a ship where I want it to go?

Why have I been unable reliably to give a ship multiple orders like pick up cargo, fly over there, drop SOME of the cargo and keep moving. It was easier in SE4

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

The UI isn't just one issue that can have a *snap* you are fixed answer. The UI isn't all that bad to me anyway. I have certainly seen worse even if I have seen better. Now I'm going off track; if it is the UI and you have to take that as your one answer what would you suggest as a role model to base an improved UI from?

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Really? I can right click just fine? I can also Shift+Click to get multiple ships.

What if you want it to go through a warp point to an unexplored system? How do you tell the game you want to warp if drag and drop means move? How about a planet 5 systems away, how are you going to drag and drop to a system map that isn't selected?

Huh? This is SE5 you are talking about right? Do you mean you can give the order but it isn't as easy as in SE4?

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

That's it, but just one, what game crashing bugs lets start there!

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

What you are asking is not really possible to tell IMO. Because there isnt any ONE 'mission-critical' problem with SE5 that I can see. If there were, that would make it much easier to correct.

The 'problem' with SE5 IMO is a combination of subtle things, many of which are touched on above. I am the one in my gaming group that decided to buy and try SE5 despite the poor reviews and less than glowing feedback from many SE4 fanatics. And when my friends ask me about it, I still cant put my finger directly on it.

The end result is that SE5 just doesnt seem 'fun' IMO. And that is about as subjective as you can get! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Whether its the UI or bugs or unfinished features or poor AI or whatever I dont know...but the result is the same...I start a game, play for 15-20 turns, lose interest, save the game, and then not bother with it for a few weeks when I repeat the process again.

So, if you want to sum it up in one problem, I guess that would be it..."IMO, SE5 isnt fun at the moment".

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

That may be true for you but that won't help to make it fun in the future. What I would like to do here is start to understand the problems that can be addressed. Just saying it ain't fun isn't going to improve anything. Not that I am saying your opinion is less valid than a person who specifies a bug with examples. To you it is a valid point. That is also the problem I keep seeing and the reason for me starting this thread. I see people say it isn't good. I see people argue why others think it isn't good. But can any one of you name a specific thing? You don't go to a store and pick a new TV because it feels right. You pick it because the other TV's had something wrong that you didn't like. What is that wrong thing? Would it help if I opened this up a bit by saying you can name more than one thing?

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

There is no "one" thing. As said before there are numerous small things that kill the fun in the game. Here are some of my top examples (all of these have been posted about numerous times):

1) The UI sucks, specifically:
-- too many mousclicks overall
-- too many double-clicks
-- no drag &amp; drop
-- can't see info you want on screens that you make decisions. 1 examples of many:
---- Research: what did I gain on the last couple of levels of this tech so I can determine if it is worth it to research another level?

2) The AI sucks. No explanation necessary. This is significant because most buyers of a game don't play multiplayer more than single player.

3) There are too many bugs, many of them still crash the game.

4) The "rate" or "pace" of the game seems too slow. SE:IV had it just about perfect to give that "just one more turn" feeling. SEV is far off the mark. Balance Mod is a great improvement, but, no offense, not there yet and still overshadowed by the other issues that can't be currently addressed by modding.

5) There are several game mechanics that are not fun:
-- retreating. A ship with even 1 less movement point can successfully and repeatably keep retreating from superior forces.
-- needing to constantly fiddle with research allocation. I don't know if most people do this, but I do because it bugs the crap out of me to lose research points when you spend more than required on the last level, which you can't know you are at unless you constantly check the data files or memorize them over time. BTW each turn research points change due to construction, happiness, etc.
-- the pathing routine sucks. I'm not sure what the fix is, but the "Stutter Step Dance" illustrates one problem with it nicely:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...&amp;Forum=f23

6) A big one for me is not being able to have the game process a turn with the game minimized. Who in SE:IV didn't surf the web or do other things when the game was processing a turn. Not anymore under SEV unless you use crappy winDOHed mode.

7) Having to keep coming back to lists to get things done one at a time. Each time, based on the delay and the reordering, it seems the game recalculates the list. Very tedious. Only the Log remembers where you were at. One example: I'd like to select multiple construction queues and place them on hold with one click, and then later release the holds all at once.



I'm sure you get the idea; I'm not going to rant or make a huge list here, but, taken individually, many of these wouldn't make too much difference, but taken in total, the game just isn't fun.

I will probably upset some people here with the following, but please don't be offended. It appears to me that too much effort was spent making the game super-moddable; so much so that MM either consiously or unconsiously is expecting the modding community to improve the game for him, at least the AI. And this effort took away time from making a fun game. I know that many people find fun in modding and that's great, but it sure looks to me like SEV to date has been more an exercise in making a game engine, with little to no work on making a fun game - expecting the fans to make it fun by fiddling with all the modability. I think I personally might have preferred a less moddable game that was fun out of the box. Just my opinion here, folks, please don't take offense.


I know that everyone, myself included, WANTS to love this game and is giving it more than a fair chance. I know that there is every reason to expect that someday after lots of patches and a long time, many of these issues would be fixed. I give great credit to MM for unsurpassed support of games after release.

Bottom line is that SEV is not fun, but everyone mostly agrees that it has the potential to be great. Time spent waiting and dealing with the problems frustrates a lot of people so much that they may be lost forever. And the absolute bottom line is that a game that isn't very fun isn't very profitable.

* steps off of soap box and thanks people for not being offended *

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

I largely agree with Slick. There are multiple killers for me, though I hope/expect enough of them to be patched eventually. Meanwhile, I have more polished games to play (e.g. Dominions 3, SE4 ...).

UI problems undermine the new features (e.g. no way to easily manage many units, tedious design UI, ship system status display practically stalls my 1.4GHz GeForce 4Ti computer, ...).

New features not developed enough so they cause gameplay problems, such as the retreat feature (which I DO want - I just want it implemented _well_) being improperly implemented.

etc... Modded SE4 is far more appealing for now.

PvK

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Slick the first half of that was great. That is what I want to hear about so I can understand what is going on. Here is the two problems I had. First and foremost you speak of everyone and the majority. You aren't the voice of the crowd and I wish to avoid comments like those. Why? I want the crowd to speak up and add their thoughts. Second problem, what game crashing bugs? Tell me and show me them. I keep reading that the game is crashing but when? I haven't had a crash since something like pre-1.17(?or maybe 8?).

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Now there is the winner. Thank you PvK! Oddly enough the ship system doesn't stall my very old computer; however, ships moving in asteroid filled systems does. One thing you said gives me a new thought. How would you implement the retreat feature if you could?

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Well, you've got to make up your mind what you are looking for. You want ONE REASON?...the game isnt FUN. I can make a laundry list of WHY the game isnt fun for me, but you seemed to want one and ONLY one thing to point to.

If you want the laundry list, then Slick did a pretty good job of covering it. Like he said, any one or two of those things isnt a game-killer, but taken as a whole, it sucks the fun out of the game IMO. The game feels very poorly paced. It feels like a pile of features that never quite gelled into a cohesive game.

And again, as Slick mentioned, I'm trying to like the game. I think it if was just some random game from someone I had never heard of before I would given up on it and written it off as wasted money. But I enjoyed SE4 quite a bit and I had extremely high hopes for SE5. So, for now, I'm hoping that the game can be 'saved' by either patches (unlikely considering that 'stock' will probably never be that great) or modders (which, I again agree with Slick that the game seems to be tilted towards).

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

I'm not going to defend who I speak for; I speak for myself with reference to the extremely numerous comments I've read on this board. There have been several threads about this game (I had a poll or 2) where the majority of responses were hopeful, but not positive. Check out the big threads since the game was released last year.

As for bugs, I wish I could provide more, but when the game suddenly gives me an exception error or some such giving some memory address that is meaningless to me and goes to the blank screen that can only be closed with ALT-F4, it is kinda hard to provide feedback to get them fixed. I have to admit that the number of crashes under 1.20 has lowered significantly, but they still happen, they still seem to me at least to not be very reproducable, but once I get one, even if I load a previous saved game (auto save on) the game still tends to crash around the same point even when I try to figure out what the problem is and change numerous settings/orders/whatever.

If you are not experiencing crashes then you are lucky and/or not performing the same operations that lead to the crashes as other people; which again seems impossible to reproduce or narrow down. I sure don't have the time to meticulously bug hunt. At 3 months past (overdue) release and 20 versions past release, soon to be ~24, I would be embarrassed as a developer to still have hard crashes. Besides, this whole thing is a side issue; crashes are getting admittedly rare, but they do contribute to the overall frustration and lack of fun.

The key here is fun, "just one more turn", looking at the clock and saying "&lt;EXPLITIVE DELETED&gt;!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE I'VE BEEN PLAYING SO LONG!!!

SE:IV had all of these for me and SEV has none.

Lastly, PES, from your tone, it appears I have offended you in my last post even though I hoped not to. If so, I am sorry and it is not my intent. Please keep in mind that all opinions here on these boards are part of a terrific community who is just DYING to enjoy this game. Trolls die here from lack of food, so don't forget who the "good guys" are...

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

I have to agree with Slick too. Those reasons and many more are why I will not invest in SEV. This game should be challeging and fun right out of the box. Plus it should be some what balanced. As it stands right now it ranks up there with other big strategy let downs like MOO3.

Right now I'm having a blast with GalCiv2 because its fun and has that next turn appeal. Plus the support is incredible. Looking forward to the expansion.

Aaron should be looking at what Stardock is doing to get this game back on track. SEV should have dominated. I still hope a year from now this game will be on par with SEIV.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

To be fair, at least Stardock has an actual staff which makes it easier to provide great support. I don't have any financial knowledge of MM's situation, but I think having a person on the payroll to handle time-consuming tasks like manuals, modding guides, and data file work would have made a significant difference to the current condition of the game. I can't even count the hours I spend working/testing on the Balance Mod, let alone imagine having to write manuals and descriptive text for everything in it. It's a monstrous bite to chew...

Overall I am optimistic about the future of the game and what it can offer, but unfortunately the rate at which it will take to bring it all together is too slow for some. Outside of the need to finish the AI's scripts, my main area of improvement for the game would be the little UI things. Such items would include condensing units in planetary/ship cargo (as it already has been done elsewhere), adding drop list boxes in place of pop-ups when possible, and copy/paste functions in text fields.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

AI is the biggest problem I have with the game. I can live with the rest of the problems, but knowing that I have just won the game when I meet another race's 5-6 ship fleet with my explorer ship and blow them all up without a scratch.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Stardock's problem IMO is that they constantly dismiss (out of hand) the multiplayer market for TBS games.

I remember them pointing to a poll that they conductd on THEIR SITE about wanting multiplayer or not. They said the results were overwhelmingly against. Well, if you ask on a SINGLE PLAYER ONLY forum, its not likely that you will terribly many MP players hanging around to participate in your poll, are you? And they refer to this completely biased opinion poll as gospel (even the way it was stated was biased...ie, "would you want to see multiplayer capability added to the game instead of other cool features?")

Ahem...sorry...side rant. But IMO to release a strategy game without multiplayer capability in this day and age of connectivity seems silly. Of course, they are being successful and you can't really argue with success. But its the smug attitude they take towards it that totally turned me off.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Oh wow Slick, no I wasn't offended. Maybe I tried a little too hard to sound neutral. I'm not trying to take sides or say anyone is right or wrong or anything of that nature. I am trying to understand why it is so bad. Call it a number of factors not the least of which is I don't seem to be having the same number of challenges/problems/crashes.

Uncle_Joe you are right I did want one thing that was more frustrating than all the others. I changed that a few posts ago because I haven't seen anyone who can answer the question as I posed it. It's down there in one of my posts, if you skim you will see it.

I hope this game will surpass SE4 and I have faith that it will. What can be done to make that happen? Any suggestions on how to fix the problems? So I don't want to offend anyone and please don't think your answer will offend me. I posed the question because I want to understand.

Edited in: Actually Uncle_Joe I am surprised that you totally missed the comment to open it up more. It's in the very same post you quoted. Read that post over and look at the last sentence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

To be honest, that post sounded kind of snarky (as in 'no one knows how to read'). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif So, I just followed what you had originally were looking for.

But at this point, most of the relevent issues have been mentioned already.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Ha-ha-ha; no not me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I still don't read it that way even the third time; but no big deal. misunderstandings are bound to happen when you read what someone else is trying to say in words.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

What slick said, and also to some extent spaceempires suffers from the same thing as what uncle joe said, "most of the buyers play single player"

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

At the moment (I might have answered that differently at the release of the game) it is definitely the extremely weak AI.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Awesome Q thanks! I think the AI needs work too and us modders can do that. I haven't taken a good look under the hood at the AI part yet but it looks sort of nuts. Anyway the AI can be improved in updates but there is nothing we can do about the out-of-box sale. I was under the impression many more people played this game in MP than solo. In fact I thought I was one of the last solo players left. In fact I have always been playing with myself (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif no pun meant) since I first found this game. I didn't even pay attention to a MP option till SE4. Maybe I should take a pole because I can't really agree with you there. Now had you said most members play mixed, some MP and some Solo I would agree wholeheartedly. Maybe I will start a pole later today, or someone else here can.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

The UI. UI shows that Aaron doesn't play his games which he confirmed several times in the public. It lacks streamlining, doesn't provide the infos I'm looking for and don't place the commands that I need next to the item I want to manipulate. Take ship design: Se4 was much more streamlined and easy to use. Now its something I avoid which is most sad for a SE game!
Besides the UI what stirs me are features that add nothing to game play but make it more complicated for nothing in return. Why place components on ships when it does near to nothing (ships blow up so fast that the directional damage doesn't come into play anyway).
Why add a maintenance cost to the most basic facilities? If my Mineral Miner Facility earns 1000 and costs 100 per turn, why not just earn 900? It is much easier to understand and to calculate (for the AI, too...).

Aaron should play his games for at least 150 turns in a row. to avoid UIs like this one.

P.S.: Yes, I'm somewhat bitter!

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

The Reason why I bring up UI as being the key flaw in SE5 is that without an easy, intuitive interface, the overall playability of the game dies off rapidly. Atrocities touched upon most of the UI issues.

As for things like bugs, Aaron is directing his efforts onto that and the AI can be fixed by us --the we can form an angry mod and force Aaron to adopt it into the next patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Another issue I'll point out is something that SE5 inherited from Starfury is the lack of ease in developing new race styles for the game. If Aaron does an SE5 Gold, it must MUST have a ship-modeling program that exports to SE5.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

I'll also add these questions with no intent to hurt anyone's feelings:


Given the following:

- SEV was built from the ground up to be extremely moddable. (As I mentioned above, maybe even at the expense of making other things better.)

- Everyone agrees that the AI could be much improved.

- I am not a modder due to time constraints and just not finding it fun.

- It has been shown in SE:IV that even with lesser modability, the AI can be greatly improved (TDM, for example)

- We would be hard pressed to make a list of SEV mods longer than a 10. I'd hope that all this modability would be embraced by more than a handful of people.


My questions:

Why is it that, now, 3 months after release it appears that nobody or at most very few people are working on improving AI's? (This doesn't count the time that the beta testers had access to the game, nor should it due to their duties to support testing.)

Do you think that MM wasted time putting in all these text files to be modded buy just a handful of people seem to be using them?

Do you think that people are:
a) waiting for the game to get better (patches) before attempting AI improvement?
b) just too frustrated with the game to bother?

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Actually, the major problem for me at the moment is how sluggish the game feels on my machine. The glacial turn processing, and the infi-small delays whenever you click on something, really detract from the experience. All the other problems people mentioned don't help either.

I think the fundemental problem is that Aaron is trying to achieve something with SE5 that can't be achieved by one person in any realistic time frame. I hope he hires a few people for SE6, if there is to be one.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

For me the UI mainly, but as others have said a lot of little things add up rather quickly.

As for Mods- Mods should enhance the playability of the game, not become the game.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

So what Aaron's take on what is going on with SE5? Is he reading this message board? It would be nice to hear his thoughts on the game as it stands now.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

The primary problem with the AI is that it isn't finished. There are numerous "placeholder" functions that are waiting to be filled in with actual instructions, plus other functions that were hashed in quickly. The difference in AI performance between SE:IV and SE:V has little to do with the change to scripting from hard coding, but just the degree of completion. Aaron is returning to AI work, particularly with the last two beta versions, so improvements are pending.

The actual level of control is superior to SE:IV for modders, but the learning curve is a little steeper. Of the testers I know that would-be AI modders, the most common response has been the fun factor for them with the game - which has hurt their desire to work on AI. The current condition of the stock game is discouraging those that are modding AIs from doing it with stock.

You would have been hard pressed to put together a mod list greater than 10 for SE:IV at this same point in the game's development - so I wouldn't worry about that.

In terms of performance the items hurting it most is the drawing of 2D screens and the pathfinding routines. Yes, multiple chase combats can extend turns, but that is much easier to workaround.

And lastly as Tim as nicely put and I said earlier, it's really too much for one person to achieve in the timeframe we demand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Well, my design style is different from MM's in many ways, but I would do it by making it less abstract. I like the feature that allows the players to specify where within a system the ships are deployed - I think it should be applied more literally. So, the game would track where all ships are within the ENTIRE sector, meaning the sector would be much larger, and time/rate/distance would be consistent. Ships would actually travel across a sector to reach the next sector. Combat would occur and endure whilst ships were in range and engagement was imminent. In other words, continuous action, and rates/times/distances actually consistent, with no artificial rules about combat ending and restarting, or ships teleporting an entire sector, etc.

Now, that's not the only way to do it, I doubt MM would choose to do it that way since Aaron seems to like abstractions, and there are probably abstract ways to represent it that don't have so many loop-holes. For example, in SE3 I believe ships were only allowed to retreat as long as they had strategic movement left - that alone would solve one of the problems with retreating. Improving the conditions under which retreats occur would also help (i.e. realizing when ships are all running away and no combat will occur so don't record it as a combat, and realizing that slightly faster ships WILL catch someone, so make a scatter decision and then start combat only somewhat outside of range, and let it continue based on relative speeds not based on artificial distances or time limits).

PvK

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Simple answer: "death by a thousand cuts". That's the one reason. If you want a comprehensive list there are a bunch of threads that cover those.

A valid observation, but look at it another way - If they're content with their current, single player market, and that market has no interest in multiplayer, why do they need to implement multiplayer? Sure they'll get more players but they'll also gain all manner of troubles (both from a design and support perpsective).
I did see the poll in question and multiplayer lost by a long way. Also I believe this was for an addon. Who better to ask what you want in an addon than the current players?

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

These are very valid comments. And I agree, Aaron really needs to play 150 turns to understand why the UI needs SO MUCH work.

I could go into great detail about each and every UI thing that I know needs to be addressed and or fixed, but why.. at this point the focus is on bugs and the AI. When the time comes to start addressing the UI, there won't be, if you listen to the nay sayers, any players left to play the game, or so it would seem. But hopefully by the time the UI is addressed, there will already be a huge TO DO list.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

I'd also put the UI forward as the biggest problem - it slows everything else down and takes the fun out of SEV. If all the UI issues were magically fixed, then AI would be the next problem.

I do have to say that I am stupified that Aaron doesn't play his games. It's a bit like an artist painting blindfold ("Hey look, I managed to get a blob of paint on the canvas!") or a builder not checking for structural integrity ("Ha! I'm not going inside that pile of junk, let someone else deal with any collapse!"). If this is the case then it's a minor miracle that SEV was even able to gain the lukewarm reviews it's had so far.

As an aside to Uncle_Joe's post, I'm also one of those who don't do multiplayer (and GalCiv would likely have been worse with it added) and I think Stardock have a valid point in seeing single player games as the majority market. Half-Life is the most popular online game according to GameSpy stats (with a peak of 75,000 players online in December '06 - see Online Gaming Zeitgeist) yet this is tiny compared to the total number of gamers out there.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

The UI turns me off. All once in a while in turn on SEV. I play 5 turns, and quit.

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

Yeah I can't believe Aaron hasnt played the game he created, that would be like SJ making CB mod, and never playing it...

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

and

And IMO if they want to do a single-player game then thats fine if it works (which it appears to do). But what bugs me about it is the attitude that they are so right because of their 'poll'. If you conduct a 'poll' under heavily weighted conditions, then you can get the results to favor whatever premise you choose. And thats what I feel happened there.

For example, if you went the PBW forums and asked if MP capability was important in a 4x game, I seriously doubt you'd get the same response! So to go to a game forum where mostly single-player gamers are present and conduct such a poll is equally worthless IMO.

But I do understand what you are saying ('why bother adding what their majority of their CURRENT customers dont find important?'). And it makes some sense. But the way it was presented at the time (and since) really rubbed me the wrong way. And unfortunately, it does NOT tell them how much of a market they lost by not having MP capability (and it might be tiny or it be much greater, but that 'poll' still cant measure it since the sampling is mainly of people for whom MP capability has lesser value).

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

That and its not like implementing MP takes much time or effort (with the exception of TCP/IP play).

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

At the GalCiv2 site they had a poll in May 06 asking...

Would you purchase a $20 multiplayer-only expansion to GC2?

The results were 33% said yes, and 66% said no.

Also they had a poll asking what features players would want in a sequel...

http://www.stardock.com/screenshots/blog-01.gif

Re: What is the problem with SE5?
 

That is, er, the poll he's complaining about.