Neo Standard for SE V?
 

After working on two separate ship sets I have begun to wonder how to add new ships for use with SE V. Right now the current ship list is rather limited:

Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

It has a listing for Baseship but uses the Starbase image.

Compare SE V's basic ship package with that of SE IV and you can see that we are missing many ships and at least one base.

I was wondering if any one has put in thought into how to expand the existing ship sets for stock SE V? I know that the order of how images appear in the Shipset and Vehicle Main Texture files has to be correctly ordered or ships won't match up.

I would like to add more ships to the two sets I have just released, but simply don't know how to go about getting SE V to use them without errors.

So any help or guidance in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I'm wondering if there is really a need. We can make hull sizes increase in kt in SE5, so there is perhaps not so much need for more intermediate hulls as there was in SE4 (such as heavy destroyer).

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I guess your right and all, but I think people will want a larger variety of ships to choose from. Given the shier number of ships for say Star Trek, I am certain more ships will be wanted in time.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

People are definitely going to want worldships.

I mean everyone loves a Death Star, right?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Well, at its most basic, you would want NS Se5 >= SE4 stock.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I strongly agree with with SJ and with Fyron but less so. No I'm not cracking a joke this time Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I agree that the number of ships should be at or above Stock SE4 but more than that is not really needed as Fyron pointed out. Now my personally take on what would be nice. For the SFTC and Lite I use over 60 hull sizes (inclusive). I will be working on condensing the total number using an SE5 approach for the Lite. So until I finish I can't say for sure how many images would be "optimal" for it. However, I can't condense the Full version and for it I would like to see:

8 Warships, 4 Carriers, 8 Freighters, 5 Bases, 4 Fighters, and 4 Small Craft.

Small craft are like ST shuttles and such so they should look markedly different from Fighters. I could settle with 7 Freighters instead of 8. And before you freak out at the numbers remember this is only my wish list. I'm not expecting all of the above. Just more than we have now.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I wonder about the sizes involved. Models are bigger than pictures, and putting as many ships into an SE5 set as a SE4 set will undoubtedly result in much larger shipset files. For most people, this wouldn't be a concern, but I run PBEM games, and require players using non-stock shipsets to send them to me (either attached or as a link). My email provider can't accept files larger than 5mb in an email, and once I have all the sets, I put them together and send them to the players before the game starts so that everyone can see the ships. The bigger the sets are, the more demanding this file becomes. I don't want to stick my 56k players with hours of downloading just to play in my game.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more variety, I'd just like everyone to keep an eye on the file sizes, and I don't think lowering texture resolution is the best option. I'd rather have a few less ships in a sharp-looking shipset than a few more ships in a fuzzy looking shipset.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

You download them first and install them into your game. You don't send ship set files with PBW files. The information your sending for PBW is game data only, no images. The images have to be on your side in order for you to see them, or else the game will use generic images in their place.

And you might not know this, but many SEIV PBW game files eventually grow large then 5 megs. SE V will be even larger sooner.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Yeah, the shipsets are going to be the least of your worries. My KOTH game- which is a TWO player game, no AIs- hit 28 MB on a turn with a lot of combat..

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Why would you email the actual shipset files, when you can just send download links to where the sets are already hosted on the 'net?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Right guys (At & P-D) that is what I thought Shadowstar was saying. He sends them out at the start of the game not every turn. So Fyron took the words right out of my... fingers(?). Why are you killing yourself by sending the shipsets? In most cases you can get every shipset and every Mod from Fyron's site. Send the players a link to it and tell them the names of the sets they need. Or as Atrocities pointed out in SE5 if they don't have the time or inclination they will see a default shipset.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Of couse we need neo-standard, at least what we had for SE4. There is so much SE5 just left behind. Also I think we should try to go beyond the SE4 Neo-standard and go for a neo stnadard+ like was used in Invasion! Infantry, Gunships, etc....

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

The problem as I see it is how are we going to incorporate any more ships into a ship set? How do we do that? What files must be edited, what order are they needed in the ship set textures and ship set image files?

One is alphabetical so that isn't too much of a problem, but the other, the portrait main textures list, isn't.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I thought they had to be added to the end but for the life of me where I read that just slips my mind. We should ask Aaron. On that other matter we were discussing about the firing points... he said nothing would happen to the firing ship.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

A SE5 neostandard should probably be limited to 5 or 6 vehicles. Given the added difficulties and time present with SE5 set making, a ~30 model increase over stock will probably cause most authors to not bother with neostandard. With SE4, many authors just filled the 20 neostandard images with slightly resized models anyways, maybe with the wings slightly smaller. Hulls like "heavy destroyer" and "dreadnought heavy" rarely saw new, unique graphics. That functionality (model rescaling) can be done in a mod's vehiclesizes.txt file directly, so I don't think "heavy" and "light" models are really necessary. Neostandard++ was overkill.

If you could name the 5 "most needed" additional vehicle models (of all types), what would they be? (I won't put my list cause I don't want to color the ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

doesnt mean we should put the stanard out there for people to use if they want.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

For reference, my proposed list of SE5 models (from http://mkv25.net/USy/tylmai_se5/) is:

Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

Colony Ship

Light Carrier
Heavy Carrier

Small Freighter
Large Freighter

Space Station
Battle Station
Starbase

Drone
Fighter
Mine
Satellite
Troop
Weapon Platform

Which includes a few more then stock.

Regards,
- Markavian

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I would have to agree, in that new unit *types* are more important than additional sizes.

Infantry...
Mothership Plugins... (IE "adds ability to parent" / "fires from cargo")
Construction Bots...
And whatever we can think up using all those nifty abilities.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Particularly, out of the above list, I have small and large alternatives for Carriers and Freighters/Transport ships. AFIK there is only one of each in SE5. I also have three levels of Space Station. I think possibly there should be an alternate bigger or small troop.

Mines, WP's, Satellites, etc. leave as they are, one model.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Well at bare minimum, we need to have the same basic ship hull sizes that Stock SE IV has.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Anyone want to put forward a 5 hull list?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Warships in order smallest to largest:

Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

However I would like to see:

Escort
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Juggernaut

Which is 7 as standard. Carriers, Bases, and Freighters would be different. Troops, WP, Mines, Drones, and Satellites one each and three fighter sizes; two minimum.

So I don't get it why only 5? That is one less than Stock?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Note the "additional" bit... stock images are not part of the neostandard additions, they are already needed by ship set authors. I was asking what 5 additional vehicle hulls (not just ships) would be the best set to form a neostandard addon to the stock set.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Really all I am interested in is what ships hull should be added so that I can start working on that. Also I wanted to know what I needed to do in order to add additional ships. What data files need modifying, and in what way, and the best way to add new images to the Main Textures and ShipSet images.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Escort/Corvette
Battle Cruiser
Different sized or shaped-
Carriers
Fighters
Freighters

While I would like a Heavy Destroyer, War Destroyer, or War Cruiser, that could be achived by scaling of similar models.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I am thinking along the lines of something simple:

Scout
Escort
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battle Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Juggernaut
Baseship

Outpost
Shipyard
Space Station
Base or battle Station
Starbase

Transport Small
Transport Medium
Transport Large

Troop Transport Light
Troop Transport Armored
Troop Transport Heavy Armored

Colony Ship
Colony Ship Large

Barge

Infantry
Heavy Infantry

Mechinized Armor Small
Mechinized Armor Medium
Mechinized Armor Large
Mechinized Armor Heavy

Fighter Small
Fighter Medium
Fighter Large
Fighter Heavy

Weapon Platform Basic
Weapon Platform Armored
Weapon Platform Heavy Armored

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

That's exactly the kind of list I think might tend to scare ship set authors away from the neostandard.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Atrocities, some of those items like "Troop Transport Armored" are more reminiscent of a design type than a new hull.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

See this is exactly the type of discussion needed to narrow the ship list. Do we need several classes of transport? And Fyron, why would it scare away ship set authors? I would think that they would look forward to having more designs than not. Sure it might be a bit more work, but most ship set authors would be up to that task. And there is nothing saying that they would have to make all of the ships.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Fyron's point is that these things are much harder to do than in SE4. And the return on investment is quite small, since you can just rescale the models ingame to get the extra sizes.


IMO, the thing we need to focus on for the core neostandard is the new types of object. The things that are completely not represented yet, like infantry and a second shape for common things with only one model so far.

The ++ part of it should include most/all the things listed here, but not the core...

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Atrocities said:
And there is nothing saying that they would have to make all of the ships.

That should be what the neostandard++ is for, extra hulls that don't necessarily add new, distinctive model types. To really make the neostandard a useful basis for mods, we want any author that makes a neostandard ship set to make everything in the neostandard. Picking and choosing a few models to do seems to defeat the purpose, to me. A narrower, more focused list eases the burden of implementation and is more likely to get full implementation than something which requires 20+ extra models to be made.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Resizing is a modding issue, our realm of expertise. New models are a Shipset creation issue which is Atrocities realm of expertise. I understand it is harder but he has generated more shipsets in both SE4 and SE5 then either of us. So if he says it is worth the effort than I as a modder must differ to him and say go ahead. Either way you make the models and I will use them.

While I agree that distinct models are needed expansion on the limited hulls we have now would be useful. Also I strongly feel the desire to generate a complete set of Neo++ will be based more on a desire to meet expectations of the players. Isn't that why we are here having this discussion. To bring the players new eye candy?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

A lot of SE4 ship set authors never bothered with neostandard images, due to the extra work involved.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I think I will just have to require everyone to find a hosting site for their shipsets. I have a limit of 50MB of space on my website, and I have the feeling I'm going to use most of that just with the mod alone. Large shipsets shouldn't be a problem since I won't be sending them out with the pre-game patch, I'll just give everyone the links to where they can download them. This was something I couldn't do in SE4 because several players who made thier own sets had to email them to me. That's kind of an old and inefficient method and hosting is cheap and easy these days. I don't think anyone will have any trouble finding a site to put thier shipsets on, especially if they are good. Hey maybe I can even use my mod to pimp some of those sites. Could be good cross-publicity...

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Ah crap I never finished my thought. I wanted to say "So either they will go the whole distance or stick to doing the Stock set requirements." I had to wrap it up and get the kids.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Wouldn't it be better if it was less of a gorge to cross for full implementation?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Can't argue with that one. But is that really a reason to short stick ourselves and the players?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Short stock how? An author that wants to go all out could do both the neostandard and the neostandard++. We just want to provide a tight set of distinctly new hulls that would be the most useful to general modding. All the extra stuff (like war cruiser) could go into the neostandard++. We aren't suggesting that noone should make such images, just that we should provide a core set of the most important ones.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I would recommend the addition of at least the following to the stock requirements:

Scout - we need something that suggests a small ship sacrificing firepower for speed and/or range
Baseship - OK, it's already referred to in the data files, but no stock shipsets actually have any.
Worldship - for the doom stars, deeath stars, terror stars, battlemoons of our evil overlords http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Resource Ship - for robo-miners and such (don't really need a resource base as the base hulls are general purpose - only the Battle Station has a military connotation)
Infantry - for non-mechanized troops

Additional ideas:
Space Monster - for monster races and perhaps monster tamers / magic races / robots gone amuck in various mods
Monster Troop - monsters for invading planets! (If your race is able to tame monsters or build maniacal death robots, it is reasonable to expect that it could use both its own people and the monsters/robots as troops, and should have different models for the monsters/robots than for the regular troops!

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Short stick in the sense that we set the Neo++ to low. Shorting ourselves out of those models the few would have created had it been higher. Set the Neo (NEO+ or whatever) to a more reasonable level. Set the NEO++ as the "Cream of the Crop" and let everyone know from the start that it is a point to aspire. Not something they must do. Set up the NEO+ and NEO++ that way and everyone wins! If all else fails a shipset maker can still fall back on Stock standards.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I don't think that is a correct or fair statement. There is no direct proof that they didn't want to make more ships, they just didn't. That is unless they posted that that was why they never made more ships.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Good point Atrocities. I still think in the end it will depend on the resident shipset expert to give the final call. Which is you! Fyron and I and everyone else can beat this subject to death. I think you should spell it out for us. What is the Neo+ and Neo++ going to have? What do you want from us modders? Once you have what you need from us push ahead with the project. You will be the leader setting the standard for SE5. As I said already, this is the realm of the shipset maker. Take what we modders say with a grain of salt. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You know how we love to piss and moan between each other anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I think the modders are a bit more important than shipset authors in determining what the neostandard needs... Shipset authors that are so inclined will make whatever modders ask for. What will be used by modders is what the neostandard needs to be. The goal here was to see what modders needed, then we could come up with a list. This most certainly shouldn't be determined by just one person.

Atrocities said:
I don't think that is a correct or fair statement. There is no direct proof that they didn't want to make more ships, they just didn't. That is unless they posted that that was why they never made more ships.

Well, I've spoken to a number of ship set authors about this stuff in the past... Some didn't have the time, some didn't care about making extra images. Others did. Remember, the vast majority of SE4 ship set authors only made one or two sets.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I'm both a modder and a shipset maker. I can't tell you what other modders will want, but for Starscape, I don't have any plans to use more than the stock ships. However, Starscape is also a very emergent mod. It grows as it is played. During the SE4 episodes of the mod, eventually I ended up creating some ships designed for a monster race but for storyline reasons, it eventually became possible for players to construct thier own variants of these ships and I moved the pics from the monster race's folder into the generic folder.

Eventually, Tau (our resident model-whiz player) ended up making an entire shipset that included a great many designs that were unique for the next version of Starscape. We're talking beyond Neostandard++, this was totally dedicated stuff.

My experiences may be unique among modders, but I convey them here to illustrate a point: mods, even those that are developed around supporting stock, can go off on some pretty wild tangents. Neostandard++ may be designed around supporting them, but how far from the norm can you go without going too far? Where do you draw the lines? When does a ship model go from "potentially useful" to "prohibitively unique"?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Fyron what makes you think shipset artists build sets based on the needs of the modder? Which modder is going to sit on their mod till a shipset is made? Isn't that like counting the chickens before they hatch? We need one person to take charge of this mess and make this take form. Otherwise us modders will sit here and squabble about the standard till we get it perfected to the point of overkill. While we do that what will these shipset artist you speak of, the ones who wait on us modders hand and foot be doing? I say let At take charge, we tell him what we want, he decides what is feasible and practical, and then he puts it into action. Then all our adoring shipset artists/slaves can get to work. Otherwise I have a big a** statue still waiting to be built on my homeworld they could be working on! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one little detail.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

No one expects anybody to sit on their hands waiting for anything. The vehiclesizes file has primary and alternate calls for models. The modder uses whatever he wants for the primary and uses a standard ship for the alternate. No work stoppage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif If a standard is adopted later, great, the modder can patch his mod.

As for artists catering to modders, most artists want to see their stuff being used so they kinda have to work with the modders, in a partnership, for lack of a better term.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

The SE4 neostandard was created precisely to cater to the needs of existing mods. Any SE4 ship set author that made his set comply with the neostandard was precisely making his set cater to the needs of modders.

=0=

Let's get this back on track... a few people have posted lists of most needed distinct hulls. What about everyone else? What do you think is most needed?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Ok, Ok, fine I hear you. Still don't see it that way but that is another way to explain the same thing. Moving right along...

Shuttles to represent warp capable small craft.
More Base and Freighter sizes oh so badly!
As for a list what kind of list? I say Juggernaut and you say that is a class not a size. How many warships? I say we need at least:

Explorer
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Monitor
Juggernaut

Baseship has always seemed like a class not a size to me and Stock Light Cruiser can be used for one of the above. Unique models are nice but what do we need? That really depends on the mod you are talking about. SJ gave his list but I don't need those. I need Shuttle and Pinnace and the rest are more selections of warships, freighters, and bases. More fighters to pick from would be nice but I only use one troop.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Of course, ALL of those are roles/classes, and not sizes.
(Though many do have typical sizes, even the ordering isn't fixed over time)

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Thank you SJ, that is just the point I was making with my comment here:
To me those are sizes of ships not roles/classes. I honestly do not understand the definition you guys are using. To me a role is "Scout Ship" and a class is "Agamemnon Class" but "Destroyer" is a size. I would read the above example as:
Scout Ship - Agamemnon Class Destroyer
I don't think you guys are using the U.S. Navy standard (I'm not saying am either) so what makes a size a size?