Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

OOB02 Poland units 020, 022, 023
OOB33 Spain units 030, 031
OOB46 Austria units 019, 020
OOB65 Finland units 022, 023, 024

(Leo2A4) have differing armor values compared to West German Leo2A4 armor.

OOB53 Switzerland units 026, 027(PZ 87H2) have old armor values for their Leo 2A5s (differing from the current West German OOB values).

OOB66 Sweden unit 030, 355, 357 (Strv 121) have Leo 2A5 values as armor, yet those vehicles (Strv 121) are Leo 2A4 configuration.

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

And are you absolutely certain that there has not been "local" modifications done to these tanks which accounts for the "differences" ??

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

I can tell for sure that the swiss Pz87H2 (OOB53, unit 026 and 027) is the Leo 2A4 plus "local" modification it's not a Leo2A5! there are in fact further modifications now and in progress... but all based on the 2A4.
In fact in some kind they more like an A6 allready...

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

So what does this tell me ? That the Icon is wrong for the Pz87H2 as well?? And what exactly ARE these further modifications now and in progress? Could it be the armour has been upgraded to A5 specs? Your own OOB ( both new and old ) has the same armour for that model as the V3 release OOB and yes the turret front armour is considerably more than either a A4 , A5 or even A6. So what SHOULD the armour be then ? It's all well and good to say it's wrong, it's another thing to provide what is correct. So what should the armour be in a Pz87H2 ?? the same as the last 2a4 model ?

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

What I know (because I've been standing on one..) is, that the turret is a Swiss made thing and the thickness of the armor, well, that you won't find out except you buy one...
Even the German A5 is a modification of the A4 there are only a few new built A5 the rest are refitted A4 (as far I know from talking to other army members...).
The armor can be even altered with extra plates... so, yes it is still the latest A4 model but with extra armor, a different turret and gun and absolutely not the same as the German A4 or A5 or A6.
The Picture therefore could be still lbm4403. Both the icons (1416 and 1418) are actually wrong, because the back of the Swiss Leo2 looks completely different - they have an extra muffler(?). So I just left the lbm and the Icon because they look cooler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I like it how it is. The armor is not that different to the German version and for the game play it doesn't really matter. Does it?

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

OK, it's it's based on the A4 but modified so it doesn't even look like the German one then the earlier comment made at the start of this thread

would be incorrect...yes?? ...........since we know it's "it is still the latest A4 model but with extra armor" how much extra armour seems to be debatable but you say "The armor is not that different to the German version" so that 180 of front HEAT armour would be wrong then if the "The armor is not that different to the German version" when the German version of a 2a4 Turret HEAT armour is 100 and a 2A5's ( and A6 )front turret HEAT armour is 130

That 180 BTW makes it THE highest rated Front Turret HEAT armoured tank in the game. Could that be why you ".... like it how it is" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

good point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif but where are those 180 original coming from http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif is it just a fault then.
I don't know it. I didn't go and measure the two tanks out...

3 and 8 seems pretty close, so might be an idea to change it to 130 then. At least what I know is, the German [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Germany.gif[/img] and the Swiss [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Switzerland.gif[/img] manufacturer are working close together (very close) [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon07.gif[/img]

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

The original front turret HEAT armour of 180 comes from the previous official versions of SPMBT game oobs. I don´t exactly remember what version it was, maybe SPMBT v.1.5 or earlier(not WinSPMBT). This old varsion gave Leo 2A5 front turret steel of 89 and HEAT of 180 (in the german oob and others too). Also the the 2A4 had front turret steel of 64 and now in WinSPMBT it has 70. So what I am thinking is that when GER OOB was changed to Leo2A4 front turret steel of 70, some of the oobs was not corrected, because I see that some were. Also the side armors are differing from the GER Leo2A4, and if somebody has made modifications.. well I don´t know.

But my point is that this must be a OOB check error, that happened when it was decided by you developers that Leo2A5 MBT frontal HEAT armors were too thick, and has remained since.

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

OK it's on the to do list and if ANYONE has a top view of the Swiss Leo 2 turret please forward it

Thanks

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

Don't have a top-view, just a top/down side view.


http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/51/87webso9.jpg
http://www.leo2.ch/leo2/kwst%20pz%2087.JPG
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9118/011dhnw8.jpg

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

The first one is good. It gives me a better idea of what's going on up on top than I have found so far

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

I've got a nice link - view from behind...
http://www.leo2.ch/index_1.1.htm

By the way the modifications in my oob are manly about waepon and not the armor - that's because I know a Swiss army weapon mechanic... and the dates of assignment.

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

Big mufflers. I guess people were complaining about the noise eh ?

Or do the Swiss like "steathy" tanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif?

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

Yea, They are the only tanks (in the world I think) to comply with the European noise regulation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
(For normal road trafic)

By the way I checked the old DOS version of SPIIMB; for a 2A4 it was a max armor of 90 and the 2A5 was 120 -- but that was an other time... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

I did some research but didn't got a final answer.
That's what I've got about the swiss version (Pz 87)

1. Swiss variant (based on A4) built at the Federal Construction Works in Thun, Switzerland. First 35 manufactured at Krauss-Maffei in Munich; last 345 at Federal at 72 tanks/year rate with the final delivery in 1993.
Modifications include Baird passive night periscope, Swiss machine guns and communications equipment, digital fire control computer, and improved NBC protection. It also has a slightly different turret rear and improved noise-reducing exhaust mufflers.
2. Swiss tanks were improved to the Leopard 2A5 standard in 2000/2001
3. Switzerland is not using the wedge armour developed in Germany and used for all Leopard 2A5+ versions
4. From 2008 around 120 Pz 87 will be upgraded and designated Pz 87 WE (~A6 standard, mine protection)
5. Instead of the wedge armour the 230mm strong boxes are used which keep the well known form of the Pz 87 turret ...

A good source is here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...p/t-31407.html
and here:
http://www.kampfpanzer.de/ -- but off line at the moment...

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

OK, just curious. Is the Pz87 we use for our splash screen the early or more recent model? I'm guessing it's the early version.

Don

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

Yes definitly the "original" A4 wit the 12cm L44 gun.

That brought up an other fault. As far I can tell after all that research the gun still remains the same... L44 (~Wp94?)
In the swiss OOB (53) it's a L47(Wp94) and later (H1+H2) L55 (Wp95) that change might be happening later (2010?)

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

So changes for Swiss (53) LEO2 could be like:

unit 018: Pz 87 LEO (A4)
Weapons
- 12cm L44 Sw87 Gun (W94 - NOT L47)
- 7.5mm MG87 CMG (new W227)
- 7.5mm MG71 AAMG (new W226)
Armor
- Steel 60 13 8 64 21 11 5
- HEAT 71 33 15 110 52 27 12
And a new Icon...

unit 026: Pz LEO WE
Fire Control 45, (EW 3 as a variant in unit 876)
Weapons
- 12cm L44 Sw01 Gun (W95 - NOT L55)
- 12.7 MG93 AAMG (new W228)
- 7.5mm MG87 CMG (new W227)
Armor
- Steel 62 18 10 89 31 16 8
- HEAT 88 42 18 130 62 32 16
And a new Picture and Icon...

unit 027: Pz LEO (A4+)
Weapons
- 12cm L44 Sw96 Gun (W241 - same L44 as Germany in 96)
- same as unit 018
- same as unit 018
Armor
- Steel same as unit 018
- HEAT 72 35 rest same as unit 018
And a new Icon... same as unit 018

and new unit e.g. 877 from about 2010
Pz LEO WE+10
Fire Control 45, Vision 50, EW 3
Weapons
- 12cm L55 Sw10 Gun (W220)
- 12.7 MG93 AAMG (new W228)
- 7.5mm MG87 CMG (new W227)
Armor
- Steel 62 18 10 89 31 16 8
- HEAT 100 55 20 155 63 33 18

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

I think we solved the "Swiss problem" with the Pz87 (LEO2)
but what about the "others"?

OOB02 Poland units 020, 022, 023
OOB33 Spain units 030, 031
OOB46 Austria units 019, 020
OOB65 Finland units 022, 023, 024
etc.

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

Isn't it just a question of different countries having different specs for their Leopards?

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

I've been working on the Austrian OOB together with Siddhi for some time now... Austria bought its Leo2A4s from the Netherlands in the mid-1990s, however, I just discovered that guns and armor are different... can anyone confirm that at least the Netherlands' Leo2s are modelled correctly? Then it would be straightforward - I'd just have to copy&paste them, as they initially did not receive and modifications.

Re: Leopard 2A4 and 2A5 inconsistency
 

Ok... I made some more comparisons and found that the Leo2s in the Austrian OOB must have been taken from Germany, copied together with the main guns...
I haven't done any weapon stats modifying so far, so I'll be careful - maybe someone could explain: The weapon only represents the type of ammo used by a particular country, right?
So, if Dutch Leo2s use the WG79 version of the weapon until 12/95 with a Sabot penetration of 50, while Germans use only the WG87 with a Sabot penetration of 66 since 1/87, then this means that the Germans bought better ammo while the Dutch seemed to stick with the old rounds. Therefore, even though I will have to correct armor values (if this can be verified) to Dutch levels, as well as the CMG and AAMG to the FN Mag(which we still continue to use - no MG74 as currently modelled), but the main gun I'll have to use depends on what ammo Austria bought with the Leos - which should be possible for us to find out.