OOB 30 Canada
 

Don and Andy,
I went through the new Canadian OOB very carefully and attached is a spreadsheet of the changes I think still need to be made. It is organized by units and formation numbers. Also in the attachment is the OOB file with all of the changes suggested in the spreadsheet. I kept them modest and did not move or delete any existing units, formations or weapons. I also ran some database checks and they came up clean. As for proof of the changes I suggest; My 11 years (1989-2000)and my Uncle Jacks 30 years(1955-1985)service in the Royal Canadian Regiment should serve as eyewitness proof. As for time period since 2000, I have used http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-projects.htm as a guide and fact checker about some of the new equipment. Also included in the .zip file are three .lbm files that go with the OOB. Two of them are ones that I sent you in Dec and the third is a greyscaled version of one that was already in the game. If you have time please have a look and consider it for the next upgrade. Take whatever you like from it and if you have any questions, please ask.

And of course anyone is welcome to download this, use it and let me know what they think.

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

This will go into the to-do list and I'll look at it after the WW2 patch is released.

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Firstly I want to say that these collaborative changes both in the new default Canada OOB and in this slightly revised one are great. Its easy to see the amount of work that went into it between this one and the one in 2.5/51.

I've got some pictures in some books circa the mid-1970s and from Cyprus in 1974 of the Lynx C&R track (Unit 169 in the OOB). In the OOB it appears to have a turret with a .50 cal M2 and a co-ax L37 (maybe I'm interpreting that wrong too), but in these pictures it has just a .50 caliber M2 in a mount that can be fired both with the commander's hatch closed or open, and an M1919A6 pattern weapon on the rear deck apparently over the radio operator's position. All the stats in the OOB seem similar, so I don't know if this matters, or if the Lynx changed over the years.

Sorry to jack this thread, but I figured that it would be better than starting a new thread.

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

I would much rather have things on the same OOB in the same thread if needed (i.e. where they are relevant to that existing thread) than thread drift into say outer Mongolian horsed cavalry units (use of donkeys for the resupply thereof) etc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

Andy

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Don/Andy,
Play testing has revealed some errors in new units created in the attachments above.
unit 96 Motor Rifle Section makes an aircraft sound when it fires it's main weapon
unit 532 Para SFMG Sec makes an odd sound when firing it's weapons
Please look into this if you intend to use these changes in the upcoming upgrade.

Cheers,
Cam

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Well Cam it's too bad this wasn't noticed a few days ago. The patch has been uploaded to Shrapnel and I'm waiting for it to be posted and I'm not calling a halt to it and rebuilding a 30MB patch for this.

FYI, the sounds you hear when unit 532 fires are "standard" sounds for a .30cal browning type MG in the game and are used in dozens of other OOB's so that unit does not have a problem. The same sounds in reverse order are used in unit 531. Unit 96, on the other had IS a problem and so is 92. Unit 538 and 539 also have a incorrect sound applied to the hand grenades but most people will never notice. These are normally the type of things that get corrected and fall into the "many other tweaks and adjustments" category. They'll just have to wait for the next patch now

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Sorry I missed this, I have not been paying much attention to this forum lately and only realized 1 week ago that winSPWW2 had been patched. Real life has been interfering with my gaming schedule http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Thanks again for using my stuff in these patches, everything looks great!

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Don/Andy
There is a serious error in the new 3.5 version OOB30.
You are unable to buy any FO unit bc all the formations are looking for the FO class in unit slot 246 where it was before. Now there is an assault boat unit there and the first FO is listed in slot 250. This change did not come from my OOB. I was careful to make sure I didn't move any existing units around. Please check this out as soon as you can as it makes the OOB quite unplayable.

Cheers

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Haven't checked it myself yet but you can always use the 'allies' button to get a similar FO unit from another OB (oh let's say the british http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )as a makeshift fix.

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

True, Hadn't thought of that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

The reason there is an assault boat in unit slot 246 is because the game EXPECTS to find an assault boat in slot 246 in EVERY OOB and for years there had been a FOO in the Canadian OOB in that slot. I guess NOBODY ever tried a river assault with that OOB otherwise I would have heard about all the FOOS that were generated on the map instead of assault boats. I fixed that old error and forgot to fix the FOO formation. S**T happens.

The 3.5 patch was issued, probably too quickly, to tie up loose ends because I didn't want to leave things like not being able to delete core formations from campaigns unfixed and there were a lot of OOB errors in 3.0 that I thought should have been fixed but really this all should have waited until after the summer because quite frankly both Andy and I are somewhat way beyond fed up with the game ATM so best balance what was accomplished with 3.5 with what would have been left undone if we hadn't issued 3.5. Sometime in the fall we'll probably look at this. In the mean time I would suggest opening up MOBHack and fixing it yourself. There are degrees of what a "serious error " is and I can assure you that this is not a "serious" error

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

OK
Thanks again and have a good summer.

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Greetings gentlemen,
Before you quit with the Canadian OOB, read this. This will make Canada more interesting for tank battles!

Canada Acquires 120 Leopard 2 Tanks from German, Dutch Surplus
The Canadian Army is acquiring 100 Leopard II tanks, to be delivered from Dutch and Dutch army surplus. The purchase is a change of direction for the army and in particular for Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier, who only a few years ago described the Leopard tanks as "millstone around the neck" of the Canadian forces. The Canadians realized the importance of main battle tanks in recent months, as tanks were rushed in to Afghanistan to support the Canadian contingent stationed at Kandahar. As the new tanks are inducted by the Army, the Leopard 1C2 tanks currently deployed in Afghanistan are expected to be retired from service.

http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...60407_leo2.htm

Thanks for all the hard work.
Will

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Please check out units #35,36 & 37, and #641-644 already available in the latest patch OOB, available from 1/2008...

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Andy,
So that is what the C3 is all about! You guys are way ahead of me.
Will

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

At the time of release I had not heard anything official as to whether they will actually be named "C3" but it seems the logical choice .

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

I think there is a couple more minor errors in the Canada OOB that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere (from the 3.5 CD version):

- 2 Light Trucks in the Misc area has three trucks defined not two.
- Inf Co-Det Wpns in the Infantry area appears to be missing a third AT unit for the third platoon.

Also, should there be an Inf Cbt Sup Co. formation?, since there is a Mech Cbt Sup Co. formation and for a few years span there is a Para Cbt Sup Co. formation.

Thanks,

Deadeye

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Since the inf co support weapons platoon has two inf-ATW in it, where would a third come from in the company with these weapons detached down to the platoons?.

3 light trucks is an obvious typo - needs fixing.

Some OOB designers put in battalion support companies - others do not bother. I doubt I have bothered ever to buy one in all the years I have played, preferring to buy the detachments and cross-attaching to companies as needed instead.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Not being a military person at all & looking at other DW formations (such as the Inf Co DW/T) that do have 3 AT units - one per platoon, I made the assumption that the Inf Co Det Wpn should also have 3 AT Units - one per platoon.

Inf Co DW+ has 5 AT units.

So are you saying that the Inf Co Det Wpn Formation is correct and all the other DW formations are incorrect?

I'd just like it to be consistent one way or the other.

Deadeye

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Canadian rifle coys had 2 MAWs and a 60mm mortar section at COy HQ weapons platoon, and an SFMG section which were sometimes detached down to the platoons.

Looking at the appropriate support weapons platoon in Mobhack, and extrapolate from there. And in so doing I think I see what has happened. Someone else has made a platoon with individual weapons added, but then made a coy with these platoons, 3 of each, making the count of coy support weapons wrong. That needs fixing. (Formation #30 is the one I did way back when and is correct, though someone has added a sniper in the meantime, to weapons platoons - that should be tacked on after the third platoon probably). Or - we could simply delete the "det weapons" company formations as surplus to requirements.

It'll be fixed for the next release.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

I'm looking into this and so far it's looking like everything is OK but I need to do further checks and will report back later

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

It is consistent. The answer is just hidden from view and is not immediately obvious

A standard Canadian infantry platoon ( formation 34 ) in this OOB
uses 1 hvy infantry squad and 3 infantry squads.

The Hvy infantry have the MG, the ATW and the 60mm mortar.

This gives a standard Canadian infantry platoon ( formation 34 )
access to .....

1 MG,
1 ATW
and 1 60mm Mortar.

But all bundled together.

The standard Infantry Co ( Formation 28 ) has three of those
infantry platoons ( and therefore 3 MG, 3 ATW and 3 60mm Mortars bundled
up ) PLUS the Inf Co Spt Pl ( formation 153 ) -- SFMG Section ( 2 MG's ) 1
60mm mortar section ( 2 tubes ), 2 Piat teams and one sniper ( I am
ignoring the sniper for this ) and therefore a total of

5 MG's
5 ATW
5 60mm mortars tubes total


The "Inf Co-det wpns" ( formation 30 ) has

1 Rifle Section- which is regular UC 1 infantry so no MMG or ATW or mortar integrated into it's structure
1 60mm Mortar Sec --which has two tubes
1 SFMG Section -- two GPMG's
1 infantry platoon--formation 34 ( see above, the "Hvy infantry" component
has 1 MG, 1 ATW , and 1 60mm Mortar )
1 If-AT team ( one ATW )
1 infantry platoon--formation 34 ( see above, the "Hvy infantry" component
has 1 MG, 1 ATW , and 1 60mm Mortar )
If-AT team ( one ATW )
1 infantry platoon--formation 34 ( see above, the "Hvy infantry" component
has1 MG, 1 ATW , and 1 60mm Mortar )

The grand total of "support weapons" for this formation is....

5 MG's
5 ATW
5 60mm mortars tubes total

So that all adds up to the total of support type weapons that formation 28 has.

The "Inf Pl Det Wpn" ( formation 313 ) has.......

3 regular UC 1 Infantry sections ( so no support weapons included ) and
1 GPMG
1 ATW
1 60mm Mortar

so that matches formation 34's support weapon count

The "Inf Co DW+" is built using formation 313 ( formation 334, it's the only one
that uses formation 313 ) and that formation uses...

1 rifle section which is regular UC 1 infantry so no MMG or ATW or mortar
3 of the Inf Pl Det Wpn platoons <<each>> of which has 3 regular UC 1
Infantry sections ++plus++ 1 GPMG and 1 ATW and 1 60mm Mortar

so we now have a subtotal of ..

3 MG's
3 ATW
3 60mm mortars tubes total

then Co Spt Pl (formation 153)is added in and that adds a SFMG
Section ( 2 MG's ) 1 60mm mortar section ( 2 tubes ), 2 Piat teams and one
sniper ( I am ignoring the sniper for this too ) and therefore a total of

5 MG's
5 ATW
5 60mm mortars tubes total

So it all adds up to the same number of
support weapons for all three formations

Formation 28 -Infantry Co ( Formation 28 )
equals
Formation 30 - Inf Co-det wpns
which also equals
Formation 334 - Inf Co DW+

for the overall count of MG's ATW and 60mm mortars

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

One thing that throws a bit curve into everything is

Inf Co DW/T+ (formation 329)

and

Inf Co DW/T (formation 330)

should really be named

Inf Co DW/T (formation 329)

and

Inf Co DW/T(-) (formation 330)

to match the original formations that do not have added support weapons ( like formation 29-Infantry Co (-) or formation 25 Mech Inf Co (-))

and, as well there are slight problem with formation 337 and 338 that I will attend to for the next patch

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Wow what a set of detailed answers - took me awhile to work through it all.

It makes sense now that you've explained it. Thanks!

If the DW formations are authentic then I'd rather they be kept around for the extra flexibility in buying options.

On the Blitz forum there is some discussion of experimental rules that would only allow the purchase of pre-defined formations (except for the leftover points at the end). This is why I asked about the Inf Cbt Sup Co. formation in my earlier post.

The experimental rules discussion is at Blitz Forums

Deadeye

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

One last (I hope) question:

Is there any particular reason why Formations 299, 300, 301 & 302 (1,2,3 and 4 Tracked APCs for Misc screen) are only available until Dec/2000?

Deadeye

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

It should be 2020

Don

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

Since I've been using the Canada OOB a lot over at the Blitz, I ended up making some of the fixes discussed here. I'd like to post it here so my opponents can d/l it and anybody is welcome to check it for errors.

I set the Version Info to "Fix Version Feb/2008 ...".

The following fixes were made:

- Formation 205 - 2 Light Trucks now has 2 trucks not 3
- Formation 227 - Art Observer now uses FOO (Unit 250)
- Formation 228 - Art Observer/T now uses FOO (Unit 250)
- Formation 230 - FO Team now uses FOO (Unit 250)
- Formations 299 through 302 - 1,2,3,4 Tracked APCs now available till Dec/2020

Let me know if you find any problems with my changes.

Deadeye

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

I have a question about the Canada Infantry-AT teams in the present day era.

There are 3 different variations:
- Infantry MAW Team with Carl Gustav (4xHE, 2xHEAT)
- Ski MAW Team with Carl Gustav (2xHE, 4xHEAT)
- Para MAW Team with Carl Gustav (2xHE, 4xHEAT)

Why does the Infantry MAW Team only carry 2 HEAT? I would have thought that being an AT team they would carry more HEAT than HE ammo. (as the Ski & Para MAW teams do).

Deadeye

Re: OOB 30 Canada
 

HEAT now has HE effects so all the HE was removed for units like this a release or two back and all were given HEAT and these were missed.

They will be all HEAT in the next patch

Don