The Middle Way X - Faerun EA [Abandoned]
 

We're abandoning this thread for reason of it having been thoroughly trashed. For players interested in discussing the game, the new thread is titled "The Middle Way2 - Faerun EA"


This game will be played on the Faerun map in the early age. I am starting with the map that Hadrian II edited (starting from Edi's map) for his Faerun PBM game (here). Hadrian II's map is attached here, but I'll be doing some edits prior to starting, most notably I'll remove all the indy fortresses.

I'm looking for 16 players in this game and I'm aiming at intermediate players, but newbies are welcome. I'll not turn away veterans, but if you're a top player in veteran games, this game might be underpowered for you. For newbies, the one thing I really don't want to see is a turn 2 or 3 drop (and I've seen 4 of those in my first two Dom3 games). For that reason please be sure you're ready for a 6 month commitment on a large map game. You should have at least played the tutorial and/or a SP game through 20 turns, with a pretender similar to the one you're playing here.

I would love to see this game get started w/ a 5 - 15 turn blitz, but I know that will be difficult in a large player game. If we're having difficulty getting 16 players, we might considering starting w/ some AI positions set on "impossible"


Server:
TBA

Settings:
Hall of Fame: 15
Magic Site Frequency: 50-60?
Renaming: on
Graphs: off?
Others are standard

Hosting Schedule:
24hr QH, moving to 48hr QH later

Victory Conditions:
VPs or #Provinces?

Mods:
CB?
Worthy Heroes?

On Stales and Lost Causes:There is no hard and fast rule, but 3 successive stales are sufficient cause to be set to AI, unless you have communicated with the host (me). A complete lack of communication combined with numerous stales also justifies setting to AI.
I know from experience that it's depressing to playing a losing position, but your fellow players will appreciate it when you "give hell" to those taking you out. Still its clearly better to go AI then to stale indefinitely, but it would be appreciated if you would announce your intention to go AI on this thread, prior to doing so.

Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy (multiplayer tips 1 and 2) will be in effect. (You don't have to role play, although it is encouraged, but you do have to be civil.)

Players:
1. Abysia - Sandman
2. Agartha - Tyrant
3. Arcoscephale - Darrel
4. Atlantis - Meglobob
5. Hellheim - Amhazair
6. Lanka - Shovah32
7. Marverni - Teraswaerto
8. Mictlan - WSzaboPeter
9. Niefleheim - Xox
10. Pangaea - Dedas
11. R'lyeh - Evilhomer
12. Sauromatia - imororg
13. T'ien Ch'i - Terrel
14. Yomi - Izzyz


Discussion Points:
Game Concept: My idea behind this game is that it is a "high magic" game, and thus the increased magic freq & choice of EA. However, I suspect that the combination of increased magic site freq + CB + Worthy Heroes favor T'ien Ch'i, so we'll open all 3 decisions to debate and go with the consensus.

Graphs: I'd prefer graphs off, but I believe newbies benefit greatly by having this on, so we can turn graphs on if most players want that.

Mods: I'd like to play with CB & Worthy Heroes, but I have no experience w/ either, so we can discuss this. One of Sheap's games, recently completed (here), used both these mods, and it seemed to work out well.

Victory Conditions: I'm open to using either VPs (but definitely not cumulative VPs) or # of provinces as victory conditions. If we go with VPs, 40% seems to low to me, I'd be thinking 50% - 55%.

Links:
Location for downloadable Faerun map (you will need Faerun_large_v2, and Faerun_large.tga within that).
Conceptual Balance
Worthy Heroes

Feedback:
CB: Y-1 N-7
Worthy Heroes: Y-7 N-1
Graphs: Y-1 N-3

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Sounds sweet im in, will decide nation in a moment.

Edit: nation will be R'lyeh.

Im really for using wh and cb.

IF you intend to do vp you should have graphs on, else the game will end and some players will have no clue what happened so to speak....anticlimatic end I assume.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I'll take Argatha please.

I vote in favor of Worthy Heroes, it adds fun with no down side.

I vote against CB. It's supposed to be a balance mod, but i think it's premature to start trying to rebalance a game that when very few players have completed even 5 games.I looked at it before Concepts of Creation started but not since, so maybe it's different now, but it seemed to me to be a more or less random collection of changes, and i just don't see the point. I'd rather explore the basic game before I mess around with mods.

I really love the Faerun map, but it is truly huge, and think that needs to be kept in mind when considering victory conditions and magic sites frequency. Given the size, the end game positions will be epic no matter what. I kinda suspect that after about turn 60 or so only single, unemployed and freindless players will really be able to contemplate absolute victory at even 40%, and many players may opt for "alive and strong" as their personal goal.

Counting VPs at turn X (100?)might be a good alternative. It leaves us with goals but might make for a little less cut-throat game. I'm fine with whatever is decided, just wanted to throw that out there.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Im in as lanka. I really think graphs should be on and for victory i vote for either provinces or just default and let players decide who wins.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I would like to play Atlantis.

I would prefer magical site setting of 60 or higher.

I consider myself a intermediate player.

I doubt you will be able to blitz, but I am game if you can manage it! I find 24hr quickhost for first 20 - 30 turns and then 48hr quickhost best, personally.

No opinion on mods but will they affect any other MP's I am in?

I prefer graphs off.

Prefer provinces victory but I am easy.

Thanks for offering to host/run the game Terrel.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Deleted.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I'm in. I agree with using both mods. (If Tien Chi has the upper hand that shows the CB will need to be adjusted. But Tien CHi will likely not have the advantage by much. I am willing to take the experiment.) If we use Vps, my vote is to have one VP per capital only.I like the idea of no score graphs as well.

I would like to play as arco.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Care to elucidate? And, if I can ask, have you played w/ CB in an MP game?

Not that I'm bent on playing w/ CB - I'm just interested in hearing more about it.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

That's about what I'm thinking.

I haven't tested this, but I know it was not a problem under Dom2, I have to believe it is not a problem under Dom3. One thing you really used to need to be careful about, however, was turning the mods on and off. This was especially true when creating your pretender; many people used to create the pretender under the wrong mod, and lost lots of points that way.

My pleasure.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Deleted.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I would like to play as Marverni.

I vote YES on worthy heroes, and NO on CB.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Sign me up please! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I would like to play Pangaea.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Woot faerun map!!

I will take Neifleheim.

I vote against the cb mod, it is basically unfinished and buggy.

Oh yeah, and a big vote for graphs OFF

But I feel the host gets to make all these decisions.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

you are of course free to your opinion, but after having played 10-15 or so games with cb I must say blesses are less efficient non the less, among other things this was done by improving the scales (and specifically the weaker scales like the growth and luck scale).

I personally feel that vanilla EA has severe balance issues, the heims being to strong etc..This the cb mode atleast atempts to adress.

The reason why I belive the cb is disliked by many is that the old power strats/builds people did may not be as good anymore, and this forces player to try new things. I agree the cb takes some time to grow used to, but in the end I do belive most of the changes are in the correct direction.

There are many games running in vanilla mode, I for one would enjoy a game under these settings.

edit: the link you are giving is to the old cb mod i belive, should be a 1.0 out there.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

bump Frank's post

Unlike Frank, i usually try to be diplomatic when commenting on someone else's hard work, but since he didn't bother I'll just second his points. It really is a bunch of radical and random changes, and his example is perfect- I design pretenders by trying to see if there's anything that fits the position i'm going for better than the obviously superior Master Lich for every nation , yet this mod improves the ML? You gotta be kidding. CB is rife with this sort of thing.

DomII CB mod was a very carefully thought out series of small changes designed to rebalance the game based on the input of many experienced players long after the game had been released. This one swiped the name, but is a bunch of radical knee jerk alterations based on first impressions of a new game without discernable rhyme or reason.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I have read up on the CB mod and vote NO.

But worthy heros sounds cool, so I vote Yes.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I'd like to give Abysia a whirl. No opinion on mods. I'd tone down some (not all) of Hadrian's victory point provinces a bit. Good idea getting rid of the free fortresses. There's a small neighbour bug around province 44, might want to fix it.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I would like to play as Sauromatia.

I vote NO for CB and Heroes MOD's, and YES to graphs off.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I'll take a shot at Yomi, if still available. I have played only one game with the new CB, and didn't last long, so I have no strong opinion. Sinilarly Worthy Heroes, but I can't see how a different heroes list can hurt.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I would like to play Mictlan if it's available. I'm playing it in another game and kind of like it.

I vote in favour Worthy Heroes, but I vote against CB. The first one is a fun thing, but CB is a balance mod. I'm not that good in this game to be able to judge if it makes the balance better, but generally i think this game is too young to use such thing, and a lot of people tell that it's broken and buggy anyway.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Wow. That's a pretty compelling argument, Frank. I get what you're saying about selective use, but I can't say I understand the game well enough to say for myself whether CB is in fact fatally flawed, or not. At the least you've pushed my opinion far enough to categorize it as "experimental", and as such I'd vote against it for the purposes of this game.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I was the first person to sign up, yet Im not in the list....

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I was waiting for your nation pick - I'll put you in now though.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I'm not on the list either, and I posted before Izzyz and imororg (and they are on).

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Neither am I.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Just for the hell of it im going to argue some more, even if im completly fine with doing a vanilla game aswell =)

Trollman wrote:
In an attempt to somehow make blessing less important they gave giant boosts to the Oracle, Blood Fountain, and Master Lich. Do I have to draw you a diagram? Those gods already start with 3 in a path and a high dominion. For a Double or Triple Bless Startegy that's all that matters - the god is going to be imprisoned anyway.

The "giant" boosts to the blood fountain and the oracle is that they receive 2 astral gems/slaves per turn. If you imprison them as you say you will receive an additional 2 gems starting from about turn 30 (good players have gem income of 50+ at this point). This is hardly a "giant" boost to a bless strat, in fact it's so small it won't be noticed...

The lich...thing is he starts with death 3, not a great path to build most bless strategies with to be honest. Also he will never be a good rainbow searcher (there are better choices), neither an sc (5 hp). Maybe the cost reduction was a bit to much but there are still better chassis to build blesses around for sure.

I do agree that some points in the cb is not optional to a big game like this (basically scales where boosted with small game blitzes in mind, they are to strong in a game like this), but I still think there are more pro's than con's to be honest

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Cool, another Faerun game. I love that map.

You can sign me up with Helheim (unless that scares people too much at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif) , it's about time I play with one of the heims and see what the fuss is about.

Oh, and about the victory conditions: imo this map is made to played with VPs, else there will be little reason to attack the well-defended ones.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Fixed.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Nice. Perhaps next time you should consider playing with it before commenting on it being a phenomenal "waste of time". Especially considering your completely ignorant remark on the usefulness of those chassis as bless. If you paid any attention to cb mod at all, perhaps you'd like to find the points for these triple blesses you are speaking of. Not to mention Fountain of Blood and master Lich are awful bless chassis. As for anyone talking about master lich being a good rainbow, I'll duel anyone in a best of three series, you pick master lich. Lastly, your manner leaves room for desiring. As for your chariot archers stopping dual blessed HelHerdlings with Sulphur Haze, you were playing noobs. Bye.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Frank,

I have read your drivel one too many times on this board. You are *always* on the wrong side of arguments wrt. balance. You simply do not know what you are talking about and you really should keep your mouth shut when the subject comes up.

Seriously, the master lich is a bless chassis? Really? For what? The feared D9 bless? Nerfing things that are most commonly used is "retarded" LOL! Do you even THINK before you post ( answer: no )? Why do you think that some units are commonly used? Is it people looking for flavour in MP games? Seriously why don't you do us all a favor and shoot yourself in you god forsaken face?

QM has done a great job with the CB mod for Dom3. Dom3 needed it badly. Heck I don't know if he went far enough, but he is trying to take small steps on some on the more broken units.

Hey, maybe I am being harsh but when Frank does something *anything* as good as QM then he can talk smack. Seriously, anything.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I played with the concpetual balance mod and liked it.

I was playing middle age Man and was placed beside double blessed Vanheim. It was fairly even and wasa lot of fun to play. In the regular game I netither want to be Vanheim, or play against them. They are too empowered and it is no fun. With the balance mod I do.

ANother thing I liked was the very subtle changes to some of the troops. When I look at the regular game, and see the prices of some of the troops, I think that there is no way I would purchase some of those.In the balance mod (I am thinking things like spearmen and militia here) I would. I wouldn't completely get the spearmen instead of the other troops, making the other ones obsoltute. Instead it is a trade off as to which one you want to get, and there is uses for both of them. It increases the variety of troops you create, and that makes it more fun.

There is also speels that weren't used before, that now have their cost reduced, increasing the variety of spells that are usable. And magic items that wern't used before, or used too much, have been altered, increasing the variety of items to build.

Yes some of the changes in the mod might have unbalanced it more. Other ones balanced it. Other changes might not have made much difference, but it is still a change from the regular game, which is nice. All the arguments saying that the mod is to new, and isn't balanced enough apply to the game as well. The unmodded version of the game has its issues and balance problems. It comes down to who you think can balance it better, the developer of the conceptual balance mod, or the developers of the game. And I say that the Concpetual balance mod is at least equivalent if not better, and will only get better with time. The change alone is nice.

I would like to use the balance mod, because the other game I am in is not using it. And I like the variety. It comes down to what the host of this game wants. If you want to use the conceptual balance mod, say so, and those that want to use it can play this game, and those that don't can find another game. I hope you say you do want to use it, becuase no other games that are currently running use it, adn I did find it fun.

(And fort the argument that says it was buggy, I did not run into any bug issues in the COncepts of Creation games, and we were using an older version of the mod. The new one would have lots of those issues removed.)

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I think this picture just about sums of what is going on in this thread.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...3595-argue.jpg

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

The number one reason I want to use the cb is that it balances the heims. If you have any experience with EA you will realise how good Helheim and to a bit lesser extent the two other heims are.

Already this game has niefelheim and helheim signed up, I wouldn't care about that if the cb was used, but those nations have me seriously worried about running this game in vanilla. You really should pay no attention to Frank, his post clearly showes he has no experience about CB (seriously blood fountain and master lich as bless chassis?)

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I would like to give Kailasa a whirl if any spots are still available.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Do you even know who made CB? It was Quantum Mechani - probably one of the most experienced dominion players there is. If his experience says to nerf one thing and boost another he is likely right. I will not argue particular fine points of the CB mod or say that it has reached the refined state of dom2 CB... but I think you are foolish to disregard it in the way that you have.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

So you propose the idea that debating on the internet has no merit or point whatsoever?

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Although I voted no CB, I dont much care either way. Haven't played with it, my impression just was that it's still rather unfinished.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

It is very much unfinished. But if you think vanilla is finished in that sense, then you are sooooooooooooooo off.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

Alright, the use of the word "retarded" is juvenile enough. Now we're making fun of people with disabilities and how they look all funny and stuff. Classy.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

If there's no CB, I'll play early Ermor.

-Frank

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

@kissblade

It is not so much the debate that is pointless, rather the way in which it was being argued.

Things were getting personal and I was hoping to maybe lighten the mood.

@johnarryn

Who is making fun of "people with disabilities and how they look all funny and stuff"? I am not of the opinion that mentally disabled people look funny at all, and a quick scan of the thread panned out no results where other posters felt that way as well. Therefore, your the first person in the thread to think that disabled people "look all funny and stuff". Classy.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

My thoughts exacty. CB is unfinished but so is the vanilla game. But you may argue on little decisions made with CB on whether such a change is balancing but there is nothing that is largely unbalancing in it. (such as the Vanheim issue that came with the game.) And most of the bugs have been worked out.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I think we should just stop the arguement here now. I agree that frank may have been a little blunt but i see wheres he is coming from and i certainly have a few problems with CB. I can also see the other point of view, especially when playing an EA game where CB nerfs things such as uber blessed 'heims. In the end if this comes to a vote it looks like there wont be CB(havnt counted but it seemed that way when i read it) but either way, its not a really big deal.

PS: i would like to re-state my preference for graphs on, im currently in a no-graphs game and it is both annoying and confusing.

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

I'm probably too late as you guys filled up insanely fast, but if someone drops before you begin, I'd like to step in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've played a lot of EA C'tis, so....

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

if there's space I'd love to join.. with anything that's open..

man these things fill up fast!

Re: The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Recruiting]
 

There is absolutly no doubt in my mind tho that 16 players willing to do this game with cb mod can be found. As some previous poster did say it's completly up to the host tho.

foodstamp
 

Foodstamp,
Wow, you got me. I secretly have a problem with people with mental and physical disabilties.

Now that we've gotten through that, if you don't see a problem with picture you decided to post, you need to think about why exactly it's funny to you.

I'm PM'ing you since I don't particularly want to start a flamewar on the board of this game.

Re: foodstamp
 

On another note: switch me from R'lyeh ---> Oceania

Re: foodstamp
 

Johnarryn, I don't think you have a problem with handicap children. I just thought it was ironic that you took the initiative to champion the cause by insulting mentally challenged people yourself. I am sure that was not your intention at all, I just found it humorous the wording you used.

As far as the picture goes, the simile is funny to me. I guess that makes me a bad person. It did help to stop the personal insults being spewed about over a player made mod, and that was the point.

Re: foodstamp
 

Way to pat yourself on the back. GJ. The sole result of your post was the solidification of people's impression of you. Congratulations.

PS : Frank you are still a useless jackass. If you think you can do better than QM go right ahead. Plenty of people would love to see it.