Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

What are the rules with using gems to increase magic levels and fatigue?

I know the basic rule is you can use up to N gems (where N is your level) to increase your level by 1 or reduce fatigue.

I scripted the spell Returning (Astral 2) as the first and only spell for an Astral 1 mage with 4 astral gems, and the AI would not cast it.

The spell costs 200 fatigue so I thought it would use 2 gems to cast it, plus 1 to reach Astral 2. Does the 2 gems use to cast the spell affect N or is there some other reason why it would not cast Returning?

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

I believe you can use up to N=Level gems to cast a spell.
The purpose of the gems is irrelevant.

Your S1 mage could however use a gem to cast Power of the Spheres, then use 2 gems (Since now N=2) to cast Returning.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

You can use only 1 gem, NO MORE, to increase level.

You can only use gems = to your magic level, ie...a level 2 mage could use 1 gem to go to level 3 then another gem to reduce the fatigue. Basically any gems used beyond the first just reduce fatigue. You can NEVER raise your mage level by more than 1 through the use of gems, ie a lvl 4 mage could only go to lvl 5, he could however use a further 3 gems to reduce fatigue.

I presume the computer would not cast it because 200 fatigue equals death of mage...

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

I thought you start losing hp after 200 fatigue? But the mage had 30hp so it would not have died. I guess the AI just tries to minimize the hp loss/unconsciousness?

Otherwise if thejeff is correct then the only way I could cast Returning is to lift my mage's astral level to 2. If Returning costs 2 gems to cast, can I use another 2 gems to increase my level by 1 and reduce fatigue? If I can not then I would still have the same problem with the AI not casting due to fear of death. This does not sound right..

I think what happens is that your astral level 2 mage will only cast Returning if it has at least 3 gems so it could reduce fatigue to 100. When the mage is astral level 1 it can only increase the level to 2 and not reduce fatigue and thus will not cast it.

Oh well time for experimentation.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

No single spell will ever put you over 200 fatigue. You can cast a spell with a fatigue cost of 700, with no gems beyond those intrinsic to the spell, and you'll still be alive and at 200 fatigue.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Are you absolutely sure about it? I thought mage would refuse to cast 700 fatique spell, unless you would give him extra gems(above spell cost) to reduce fatique, or he is much higher than spell's level, or you make him cast it in the communion, et cetera.

I am not sure about it though, haven't tried it for a while.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

The maximum number of gems used 'N' includes the gem to raise level, gems to reduce fatigue *and* gems needed to cast the spell. An astral 1 mage can never cast a level 2 spell that also requires gems to cast.

An astral 2 mage that casts returning can not use any more gems to increase level or reduce fatigue, because he's already used the 2 needed to cast the spell and he cannot use more gems than his level.

I thought that in dom2 at least higher than 200 fatigue resulted in damage and could kill mages - a common cause of death for communicants. I though that the high-fatigue battlefield spells essentially required a very high-level mage or lots of gems to reduce the total fatigue below 200. Of course, I could be wrong here.
I'm pretty sure that the spell AI will refuse to cast spells if they'll take fatigue too high.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Going above 200 fatigue is indeed quickly fatal, _but_ casting a single spell will never take a mage above 200 fatigue (I only realised this recently). Communion slaves though can easily be killed by excessive fatigue since the masters won't stop casting just because the slaves are asleep, and Grip Of Winter/Heat From Hell/Rigor Mortis can all also easily kill people from fatigue (particularly if they've already worn themselves out casting spells).

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

I suspect that it's a max of 200 per spell. I know that if you have 0 fatigue before casting a 300 fatigue spell you'll be at 200 and unhurt. But if you are at 50 fatigue before, I think that you can only cast spells that cost 150 or less after modifications. Not 100% sure on this though.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

That's interesting, that makes sense actually, the way I worded it is a bit dodgy.

Still, it says in the manual that a mage will never voluntarily go over 200 fatigue. So if the fatigue for casting a hard spell is always treated as 200, that means that a mage with 0 fatigue can cast it, but one with 1 fatigue can't, which seems a bit bizarre.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Thinking about it, that means that if you expect your opponent to cast some weasely battle-winning spell that'll cost him 200 fatigue (like Fog Warriors, Darkness, Earthquake or something) and you have the first turn (I think the defender has the first turn), you only need to get his mages to have at least 1 fatigue and you're safe. I suppose immediately casting Grip of Winter/Heat from Hell/Rigor Mortis would have a chance of saving you, I don't know if there's anything else that would work.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Nah. They'll just use extra gems + Communion + reinvig.

They won't voluntarily exceed 200 fatigue... for themselves. The unit AI hasn't cared about communicants, ever, IIRC, but at least this can be somewhat ameliorated by a Master casting Summon Earthpower, and an Earth blessing for any sacred communion slaves. Relief also works although it's no longer the mass-fatigue-reduction one-off.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

I just tested this, it seems like casting fatigue stops at 200, at least for non-communion slaves...I had an E3 mage cast Iron warriors for 40 fatigue, summon earth power for another few (and the needed path boost), and then earthquake with 3 gems, which is a 300 fatigue spell, so all 3 were used to get the casting off...he took a bit of damage, which I assume was from the earthquake spell, but didn't explode in blood from the 150 points of fatigue damage he would have taken if there was no cap.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Wow, this is good, so basically as long as your capable of casting the spell, you can ignore any fatigue over 200?

Whats the point in having all those spells at 300, 700 etc fatigue?

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Isn't gem cost still linked with fatigue cost? That was the case in Dom2.

Anyway - the normal fatigue cost also decides how much stronger you need to be able to cast it and stay conscious. So there's still a higher cost to 400 than 200.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

So you guys are saying that a single lvl 7 air mage can cast Air7 spell which require 7 gems and generates 700 fatigue. And that the mage can do it while being at 99 fatique, in which case he would only get +101 fatique and the spell will be cast?


I never knew that, but it is very good to know, if this is indeed the case. Could somebody run few more tests just to confirm it beyond any doubts? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

No, I think in the above case, that particular Air mage will explode in blood... What they are saying is that no one particular spell will cost more than 200 fatigue, even if it is listed as 700. In your example, your mage would end up at 299 fatique (assuming 0 encumberance), and would take 99 damage.

The reason casting fatigue seems to "stop" at 200 is because everying above 200 automatically goes to your health.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Mages _cannot_ cause damage to themselves by casting spells. They will never push their own fatigue beyond 200. Whether this enables the mage to cast the spell as Corwin describes or not, is something that I've never been able to figure out, and the manual doesn't do a particularly good job of describing the behaviour.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

What Graeme said.

Everybody keep repeating the phrase from manual that "mages can not go over 200 fatique in casting the spell".

But that phrase could be understood in two different ways.

What other people on this thread said earlier, that based on the things they observed in the game, that phrase means that the 700 fatique spell will be cast as long as mage have minimum needed level and will have enough gems, but the fatique will be capped at 200. Even more so, poster said he saw mage casting such spell even if mage's initial fatique is none zero.

What you mean is that mage will refuse to cast spell, since it would put him over 200 fatique.

See the difference?

I am trying to figure out who is right here, since either you or the previous poster must be mistaken, since these statements directly contradict each other.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

[/quote] But that phrase could be understood in two different ways.

What other people on this thread said earlier, that based on the things they observed in the game, that phrase means that the 700 fatique spell will be cast as long as mage have minimum needed level and will have enough gems, but the fatique will be capped at 200. Even more so, poster said he saw mage casting such spell even if mage's initial fatique is none zero.

What you mean is that mage will refuse to cast spell, since it would put him over 200 fatique.

See the difference?

I am trying to figure out who is right here, since either you or the previous poster must be mistaken, since these statements directly contradict each other.

[/quote]

I would love to know the answer to this as well.

Given that people are saying 2 different things. Is there any possiblity of some spells being bugged and others not, ie...both is the case, 1 spell with 500 fatigue can be cast just taking you to 200 fatigue, well another will be refused?

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

What "the people" have apparently concluded (looking at the threads) is that no spell will ADD more than 200 fatigue. So a 0-fatigue mage can cast ANY spell (barring gem/level costs) and come out with only 200 fatigue, without using any communions or extra gems.

However, if your mage has 10 fatigue, and they cast a spell listed as >= 200 fatigue, they will take 10 damage and be at 200 fatigue (or ignore the order if the AI decides it isn't worth it).

To address on final question: the meaning of fatigue cost over 200 is twofold. (1) it effects the minimum number of gems required to cast. Every 100 fatigue points mean that that spell requires 1 gem -not including gems used to increase level/reduce fatigue. (2) it effects how much you have to work to reduce it to a manageable level. For example, say you want the same mage to cast two spells with >= 200 fatigue. You will most likely need to reduce the fatigue caused by the first spell enough to keep your mage conscious (<100) and the cost of the second one enough to not kill them and get the AI to approve it (<200, probably more).

And, to recap the use of gems in battles, the mage may only use 1 gem per level for ANYTHING. A mage may only increase their level by 1 to cast a spell just out of their reach, along with the gems required to cast the spell AND any "fake" levels which reduce fatigue. The equation for fatigue accumulated by any single spell is the Amount Listed / (1 + the EXTRA levels the mage has, including "fake" levels), capped at an INCREASE of 200.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

Except that the mage won't behave as you just described. The spell either won't be cast, or the mage will end up at 200 fatigue without suffering any hitpoint damage. The issue is which of these two takes place. Mages never cause themselves damage by casting spells.

Re: Gems, fatigue and increasing magic levels
 

I just ran a test. I had a level three mage with a small army attack an independent group. The battle took place with a magic scale of 3, that's 30% reduction of fatigue. I had the mage cast legion of steel and invulnerability, which put him up to around 40 fatigue. Then I had him cast curse of stones, a level 3 spell with 300 fatigue and requires 3 gems, which the mage had. He cast the spell and had 200 fatigue. 30% off of 300 is 210. The fact that he cast it despite that he should have gone over 200 seems to prove that a mage could cast a very fatiguing spell at 99 and only be at 200 after it is cast. Of course, other tests by people to support this finding would be appreciated.