Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Hello guys,

I've been playing a multiplayer game for a little while (started it with another friend), and now well ... err ... hmmm, let's say I am a bit in trouble *grins*. In fact, to be blunt, I could really use your tips and advices ... Yeap, yeah ... you guys, the tactical genius. Err ... Please *chuckles*.

Well, as I was playing LA Man for the first time, I didn't exactly chose the right kind pretender, I think. I got an Imprisoned ArchDruid (who hasn't broken free yet) (trn 32) and his stats are probably not what they should be : something in the line of 5 nature, 4 Fire, and some earth and astral (if memory serves me).

I got no mage with any skills in death or nature magic yet and at the moment i can't take advantage of my national summons. *shrugs*

It wouldn't be too bad, I mean my economy is great, (growth 1, Order and Productivity 3, Drain 3) and my province pretty well defended, however last turn, Utgard finally found one of my province. I was feeling pretty self confident (tsk tsk, who just said OVERCONFIDENT), and thought that my longbowmen would really crushed his pathetic giants.

Needless to say, it didn't exactly happened like that *chuckles* ... as I found myself facing blessed giants, who were really, really on steroids.
You know, the regenerating, berserk, attack twice a round kind of steroids.

Well, I got trampled (and that's an understatement) *grins*, so now I thought that I would take a bit of time to think about my strategy, and see if I could get some good ideas from you guys.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

You're in for a tough fight. Utgard is probably better than L Man is almost every way.

L Man has spies; try to get two or three into Utgard's capital and order them to instill unrest.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Air + Astral magic is quite useful against big, high-HP targets in (relatively) low numbers ...

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Hmmm, I'm afraid that his provinces are pretty well defended, I'm not sure that I will be able to sneak a few spy without them being caught on the way by the militias. The magister isn't exactly the sneakiest unit I've ever seen, it only got a lame (Stealth +0).

Regarding the air+astral magic advice, any spells specifically in mind ? I'd need something that would really pack a punch.

Soulslay, Mindburn, Paralyse ? For astral maybe ?

What about air ? Mass spam with fantasmal warrior or ghostwolves maybe ... or rather Thunderstrike and Lighting bolt ?

Most of my mages are doing research but I can move them to the battlefield I guess.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

The light of northern star (comes as a banner, convieniently) and lots of soul slays and/or paralysis usually works very well against big targets. I think. I'm not playing this game that much, too many annoyances.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Some of your judges will get Fire and Death, they can make Flaming Skulls, and then with Phoenix Power, cast Flaming Arrows. That, along with Wind Guide, should help the longbows hurt even blessed giants.

Thunderstrike, lightning bolt and orb lightning are all good.

Defenders are a good solid unit, with crossbows, so they'll benefit from the Wind guide/Flaming Arrows and be tough enough to at least slow the giants briefly.

What does Chelms have for national summons? I don't remember anything spectacular.

It does seem strange to have half your starting gem income in Nature and no Nature mages to use it. Really limits pretender design.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Careful with Light of the Northern Star, though. It boosts all astral mages and Utgard has astral as well.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Taken from another post, credit to Kalin :

Summon Black Dogs should summon 20 black dogs for 10 death gems.
(Black Dogs: 14HP, size 2, 4 Prot, 13 Mor/MR, 2 Enc, 12 str, 12 atk, 10 def, 5 prec, 3/24 Mv, +20 Stealthy, Animal, 100 Darkvision, Bite attack)

Summon Cu Sith should summon 7 Cu Sith for 10 nature gems.
(Cu Sith: 26HP, size 3, 7 Prot, 14 Mor/MR, 2 Enc, 15 str, 13 atk, 12 def, 5 prec, 3/28 Mv, Sacred, +0 Stealthy, Forest Survival, Animal, Bite attack)

Summon Baghests should summon 9 Baghest for 13 death gems.
(Baghests: 28HP, size 3, 6 Prot, 14 Mor, 15 MR, 2 Enc, 16 str, 13 atk, 10 def, 5 pref, 3/26 Mv, Sacred, +20 Stealthy, Animal, 100 Darkvision, Venomous Bite attack)

The summons aren't too bad ... however I can't take advantage of them due to my pretender built ...

I should have bought at least D2 for my pretender ... who is still imprisoned atm *grins*

Flaming arrow is a good option, I agree that it can be absolutely devasting on giants, however I can see that it will take a long bit of time to get into shape and to have something worthy.

Regarding light of the northstar and soulslay spam, that seems like a good idea (not sure if I have researched it yet however, gotta check and have a look at the book to see what level it is). From the battle I have seen, I wouldn't be too much worried about the astral mage from Urtgar, as the basic tactics seems to be a Priest lvl 2, spam blessing Woodman ... a bit cheap and crude for a tactics, you will have to agree however it is definitely effective *laughs*.
So if I can stop his army, I think that will give me some time to work on a tactic and harass him a bit with an important sneaking army.

Oh ... what would you think of a phantasm spam with the air mage ? Any chance that it could work against the big giants, maybe buying some time for the archer to take them down, and of course, I wouldn't have to worry too much about friendly fire.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Right, those are new in 3.06. I only really looked at Chelms in 3.04.

I haven't tried the phantasm spam idea. My guess is you'd need a ton of mages to make it effective. You don't have a reliable source of cheap A1 mages and there has to be something more effective for the Magisters Arcane to do. But like I said, I haven't tried it and I've often been surprised by what does work.

I'd be more tempted to recruit cheap, but real, troops to slow them and hope mass longbows and crossbows can drop them.

Commanders with bows on fire rear to target his commanders?

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Give the spies a chance! A little unrest can cost a fair bit of money and if he does not start patrolling his capital, you might be able to shut down his recruitment of his very good troops. On the way to the capital, install unrest in a few rich provinces. Chances are he will not even notice if he has auto taxation on, but you will cut his income. It is a long term strategy, but it can tip the balance. Since he just found you on turn 34, you both have decent size empires and the battle is likely to last some time. Make long term plans and hit him everywhere you can.

Do not just think tactically battle to battle, also think strategically.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

I would stop recruiting longbows and start recruiting crossbows. The AP damage really will make a difference against armoured units.

Of course you'll be able to recruit far fewer, which may be a problem if you don't have very many castles yet.

If you can either summon a storm (so you can cast 'summon storm power') or forge boosting items to get your magisters up to A3 you can stand at the back of the battlefield and cast Thunderstrike, which may not be enough to kill a Jotun outright, but will do a lot of damage (plus splash damage), while the giants run up the length of the battlefield to try to get to you. Combine this with crossbow fire (which will be most effective when they get close) and you'll cause them some grief.

Also at least some of your magisters should be able to cast Gifts from Heaven (after casting 'Summon Earthpower'), which is a great giant-killer.


If you have enough time to mount a long-term war I would start building castles so that you can start pouring out crossbows. And the spy thing that others are suggesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Sorry, I have misled you. I fired up a game last night and Man does not have spies, just stealth units. Ignore what I said about spies for this nation. However, I stand by what I said about thinking strategically, not just tactically.

You could consider a stealth army to sneak in and raid his rich lowland provinces. Take the province, push the taxes up very high and leave. If he pushes his provincial defense up high, it costs a lot. One point of defense from 20 to 21 costs 20 gold. It is just not good value at the higher levels, but if he wants to spend the money, encourage him. Keep stealing his provinces, then running away. You will cut his gold income and probably his gem income. He also has to divert troops to try and catch you, easing the pressure on your home front.

Consider cheap troops out front, to slow the giants down while you shoot and spell blast them. Then your good infantry, for the real fight. The arrows keep falling while the infantry hold up the giants.. Try to maximize the power of your good longbow units by letting them fire as long as possible before giants reach them.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Actually, you were right, Man Tower of Chelm got spies : the Magister (nice unit btw). I conducted a small test game yesterday were I was playing both side to see how some formations and units were standing against waves of giants.

However ... Your opponent will get a nice little message when one of your spies is at work in his province, so it can't really be a kind of stealth operation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif . He will notice, and if he does, he will start patrolling ...
But well, that may be an option gotta think about it ... too bad the magister are kinda useless magic wise.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Patrik, getting a storm going doesn't work well if you're relying on crossbows, it hoses their precision and causes half the shots to just get lost outright. Similarly, it sounds like the unit of choice is woodsmen, which are lightly armored and have no shields, and thus longbows (especially with flaming arrows) would be the ranged attack of choice.

I'd go tower guard to resource max and then fill out the rest of your gold with longbows, make sure to get flaming arrows...phoenix power burning a gem to cast and then another 2 gems to get off flaming arrows should work

What bless is he using? If he's not using fire bless you might want to try to find some high defense units to hold the line, if he is just suck it up and try to kill him first. Your guys will get hit, and they will die, don't worry about prot. If he's using E9 (or even if he's not) toss some destructions at him to pop his armor, it'll help a lot. Abuse PD if you know he's going to attack somewhere, fodder is good (especially if he has no earth bless for reinvig). Water bless will help, but you get multiple attacks on him which will bring the defense score back down, and it's not stellar to start with, you just have to out-swarm him.

Destruction works wonders though, try that out, plus longbows and the obligatory wind guide. If you're going tower guard make sure to get sermon of courage off so they'll pass their repel morale rolls as well...the one damage won't matter, so as long as they're not losing attacks to it they hit harder than long spears and have the defense to survive the occasional swing, especially if the giants aren't high fire bless.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Huh, I will double check that. Also good to know about the message, that is new to me. Takes a fairly big bite out of the spy’s power, as it does not take much to boost PD up a bit and throw in a patrolling army. It will cost them, but the chance of really hitting a human is a lot lower.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

From the description, he's using Woodsman with a nature 9 bless, and water mages (Skrattis) set to cast quickness on them. This is a really effective giant setup because the giants will cross the battle way too fast for your archers do enough damage, and since they are berserked, they won't break due to morale. The giants effectively gains 2 str, 2 prot, from berserk, 1 def from quickness (3-2 from berserk), and 3 atk without touching experience. Effectively making them into powerhouses that you can't hope to compete with on even grounds.

Here's the choices you have:

1. Try to out strategize them. The above giant strategy is heavily gold dependent (and pratically zero resource). You can try various tactics such as spies or just out right raiding to cut his gold supply. Giants always lacks numbers, and their PD is absolutely abysmal, so this is probably the most effectly option, IMO.

2. Should you have to face the gaints in battle, the one thing that they do seem vulnerable to is fatigue. So my suggestion is to try using Curse of Stones and a lot of chaff units to get the giants to tire themselves out. Bringing some priests along to sermon the troops if you try this, they will take massive innitial losses.

3. The third option isn't too reliable by itself, but can work with the above, but would need a lot more mages. Essentially, try to put some few elite infantry(wardens/defenders) together and set your mages to cast Body Ethereal and Luck. If you space them correctly, while the giants are busy with your chaff, your mages will be able to buff your units into something capable of taking the giants on.

4. The fourth option requires that you be able to forge Bags of Winds. If you can get one of your mages high enough to do so, forging this and equiping your Magister Arcane with them will do wonders. Script them to spam Thunder Strike. The Air Elemental that comes with the bag of wind will distract the giants long enough for you to pull this off. (Without them, the giants will be in your face, and you will kill your own troops.)

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

If you have access to astral 2 mages, Soul Slay is probably your best option. Giants rely on few, very tough units. Soul Slay kills units regardless of the nunber of HP. Northern Lights banner is expensive (40 astral gems and I think Constr 6). A Starshine Skullcap (+1 astral - requires 2 or 3 astral to build) and Crystal Coin (+1 Astral - requires s2e2 to build) are cheaper, but only affect one mage. If he desn't have mages out in the field, use the +1 astral empowerment that boosts all mages on the field. Also, stick a Medallion of Focus on.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Hmmm... I dunno, with that kind of setup, you're talking about at least 3 mage turn for one giant per turn (for the items alone). I'm not saying that it won't work, but I bet Utgard can pump out giants faster than that, and unless you put down a ton of chaff like I mentioned, a bunch of berserk, quickened giants will be in your face in a few turns. You'll be lucky if you can kill 2 giants with one of those mages. Losing a battle with a bunch of mage decked out in items would be disastrous. I don't think he will have enough astral gems to pull it off more than once. Also keep in mind that Utgard has no problem casting Antimagic.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

You're absolutely right about Storm - I was not clear in saying that what I was proposing was not one big strategy but several ideas. If you can summon storm and have lots of magisters you can just pound him from the back of the field with thunder strikes, with a meatshield protecting your mages when they get close. But you'd need a lot of Magisters to make this work.

Woodsmen IIRC have a prot of 11, which is not super high. With longbows you're definitely going to do some damage - just not as much as with crossbows. However, Flaming Arrows changes this (as you rightly point out) because then quantity of projectiles matters more.

However I still stand by my suggestion that if you can tweak your economy to be churning out significant numbers of crossbows (resource-intensive) and magisters (gold-intensive) this is better than longbows. Of course, the catch is you need a lot of castles to make this work. Best of all is Magisters with Bags of Wind (as someone suggested) combined with crossbows.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Actually, it is even a bit worse than that ... He is indeed using woodsmen, but he is not using Skrattis at all. The quickness effect looks like it is part of the bless, so I think he got a W9N9 pretender ... the bless effect of water add a got bit of defence to the giants, making them really tough. He is just using one or two priest to spam bless ... *frowns*

Well, the goods news are that, according to the score graphs (which were kept enabled) he really really sucks in research ... but well, as it was said, the woodmens are real powerhouse ... and even if I haven't seen a single Skratti on the battle field, well ... honestly it is not as if it looks like he was really needing them.

Curse of stone looks like a great idea, but I don't seems to get the idea about the bags of winds ... I think the air elemental won't last a few seconds against a horde of giant.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

If you are facing hordes, you will likely need hordes to deal with them. I think the plan is to get several bags of wind with several mages.

Since you started this threat, I have been playing a parallel game with Man and having fun, so thanks for the idea. One thing I have been finding helpful is to closely check the random paths I get on the Magiesters. I managed to get Earth 2 on one guy and Nature 2 on a independent. This allows me to build Earth Boots and Thistle Maces, which then bring a lot of other mages into the picture. Specifically, I then went on a site searching rampage.

Earth brought me a lot of hidden gold mines, which really lifted my income. I think this could help your situation. Nature has brought me lots of gems, but I have yet to determine a good use for them. Air and Astral were already well searched, but I thought I would mention them. Do not neglect this part of your income, as you may have to out strategy your opponent, as well as swamping him with troops. Money and gems will help that plan.

Also, with Earth 3, you can cast several of the good anti armour spells, especially Destruction. It really helps you in killing enemy troops, especially if you get it cast three or four times.

Re: Brainstorming : LA Man, Vs LA Utgard
 

Just a thought. LA Man has stealth units and commanders. One solid army of them will take out most normal PD with ease. Send this army into enemy territory, capture rich provinces and raise taxes. Move on and strike again. Follow up with spies who keeps instilling unrest once the enemy retakes the province. Based on what is in the other active thread on spies, once the unrest is up with the high taxes, instilling unrest should be easy and safe.

Take out a few key provinces. The enemy gold supply goes down significantly, making it harder to run the giant strategy he is using. Further, he has to divert resources to retaking and patrolling the provinces you took. This takes pressure off your territory.

Raiding with spies to compound the effect. I think they call it joint operations in the real world.