COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

It had to happen sometime, it just happend to me first. The following are my own opinions, paranoid musings, but I would dearly love comments, especially from Richard and MM to allay my fears. I recieved the following in my hotmail box today:


Quote:""Please remove the pictures:





From your page. I know the artist has NOT given her consent for their use in this way and I have already contacted her. She directly asks on her gallery page that you please not take them for such use and I am asking in her stead that you honor this.

Thank you for your time. "".

The pictures in question were the race portraits I use for the Y'Gathian Free States shipset. They were not taken from the artists site in question (I didn't know it existed) but from an RPG site dealing with Baldurs Gate portrait downloads (free downloads, no copyright notices posted at all.)

I sent a return email/apology, I never intended to violate copyright, hopefully something can be worked out (even monitarily) for the use of the picture, it is the central core of my race.(besides the fact that the picture ROCKS!, and brings a much needed female element to SE4).


The problem I have is not that people got upset, I would to if my AI files were copied/posted without my knowledge and were touted as someone elses. My problem is if this is NOT a friend of the artist but an irate fan instead. I didn't know about the deal not to copy/publish etc, as far as I was concerned I was within my rights (free download and all), I NEVER claimed to have drawn the picture (couldn't draw a stick man if I tried). The problem begins with how the artist in question will respond, this could be anything from just "ask permission first! but we can work something out...." to "my lawyers will be in touch....prepare to be sued!" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

If you think this is being paranoid take a look at a few companies out there, Marvel Comics will (and has) sue anybody trying to use the 'X' in a title, they want to keep their X-men titles open ended. Other companies sue at the drop of a hat if they think their stuff has been improperly used.

Now the big problem arises: What if a 'personal friend' or 'irate fan' of Star Trek dosn't like the way people use the pics and sends an email to Paramount Legal department. (or a bab5 fan, starwars fan etc). I'm sure any of these companies would not be totally happy that a company sells a product that can quickly be converted to a game that looks like thier property, especially if the content in question can be downloaded from the 'infringing' companies website.

MM/Shrapnel is a small company, they are all BIG companies, think of what even the HINT of a lawsuit would do to the game/company we love. There are tonnes of Star Trek/Wars/Bab5 images on the Shrapnel company servers for download. The legal costs alone would probally shut the company down. Are we unknowingly contributing to the demise of the game we love??

Hopefully this is just all a paranoid delusion, hopefully something can be worked out with the artist and she is not too upset (again, I apologise, I did NOT know I was infringing upon copyrighted material). If not, we best be careful what we post, it could come back to haunt us.

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Definately could be a problem. Just ask the ower of the restaurant formerly known as Sony's in NYC, and that was the persons legal name!
Hopefully it is just the case as presented.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Sad day for you and us my friend, i can only offer my condolences (and an olive branch if i could to the author) if there is an infringement.

tic

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Sorry to hear this.
I can create a replacement race portrait if necessary.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Post a disclaimer. Second, unless they have access to your full real name, chances are they will not take action.

Best thing to do CLEARLY state that it is the work of a FAN, and not MM/Shrapnel.

Past that, don't worry. Change the images in question, and let it go.

Most companies (IE Paramount) want credit if you use there images. THEY want money if you get money for there images. They consider fan work free advertisment, and do not act upon it as long as the person using the images GIVES them credit for it.

This person is just raddling the saber to get some attention. I would not worry about it.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

That's the problem with creating a derivative work. If it's not authorized in advance and it's not covered by the fair use exemptions (which, for this sort of mod, don't apply methinks -- they mostly allow for research or review, and there's some legislation specifically aimed at libraries -- but I'm not a lawyer), then distributing it is a bad idea... And putting it in a public Online forum is explicitly labelled a public performance for purposes of copyright law according to the US Code, IIRC.

For reference, you might want to look into, say, the various _Doom_ mods. ISTR that Fox went after the makers of the Alien "total conVersion" for Doom because it used their IP, for instance. It didn't matter that it was free -- it was still a violation of their IP protections. It also wouldn't have mattered if credit had been given.

So I would highly recommend that people looking to create derivative works ask in advance -- possibly in writing, to get a response you can file, if particularly paranoid.


------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Yes the best way to stay out of trouble is to grant credit where credit is due.

But to be honest I wouldn't be too concerned though about any trouble we may get in for fan work...

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Yes I have always added a discalimer note whre I specificaly say my shipsets are a work of fan art, non-profit and named the copyright owner.
I didn't know the pictured used as y'gath portrait was copyrighted material. I will add the note now.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Update:

I have not heard directly from the artist in question, only her friend (who is indeed her friend). But it seems alot of sites have been using her artwork without her permission. Including the Baldurs Gate site, she is understandably upset. My condolences go out to her, and my sincere wishes that she continue with her artwork, it is indeed incredible. Don't let the actions of a few get you down.

I have comissioned a replacement picture, done by Andres as per his offer. As he made the shipset pictures I have full faith in him for this, his artwork too is amazing.

Hopefully, all will go well, maybe I can even aquire permission to use her picture for the Y'Gath, if not, well a lesson learned. As said before, no harm was intended. Nor was any offense.

Thank you to all those who have responded to my paranoid thoughts.

Steve.

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Hm...this sounds oddly familiar. I know a friend of mine has had some problems like this in the past. Copyright is a tricky issue, but when it comes down to amature artists, I can definately sympathize with the need for asking and giving credit where credit is due. Most people who are amateurs want to possibly become professionals, and it's rather difficult to achieve when one's art is taken on the net and shown without any credit given.

(ed. note: while I was writing this, I was in the middle of an ICQ conversation with a friend of mine, who offered some insights into this situation to me)

When I first read this thread, I thought that it sounded somewhat familiar, and in fact, upon further checking, it's actually more familiar than I originally thought. I happen to know the artist in question, and she's had a heck of a time with people taking her art and not giving her proper credit (or any credit in some cases: there's beed a few times when people tried to pass it off as their own).

I love her art, and I sincerly hope she continues to share it with people, as do the rest of her friends, and the best way to do that is to give her a reason to keep producing it. Right now, the best way to do that is give credit where credit is due.

As for the paranoid ramblings, well, yes, if a company wanted to, they could keep people from publishing shipsets and images if it kept them from earning money on the subject of the shipsets and images or if they had a similar game and the mods for SEIV cut into their own sales (like say Lucasarts were to revive Rebellion, they /might/ decide to come down on the Star Wars shipsets).

But in any case, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean that it's free. And when it comes to independent (or amateut) creators of anything, you always want to give them a reason to continue making stuff if you like it. It's like not just handing out the *.exe for SEIV or WAREZing it, because we want to see more.

I'm not certain, but I think that if you asked her and told her your intentions, you might get permission to use her picture, but that's really up to her, not me. In any situation, I look forward to seeing more shipsets to download.

-Hotfoot
"Hey, we can hope."

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Deathstalker,

What do you think about posting her website address here? It sounds like she has great work that is in a style a lot of us would like to see. If she is getting any cash from visits to her website, should would probably appreciate the extra hits and even if not, she would probably like more publicity and appreciation for her work. Doing a little advertising for her might help sooth any upset about improper use of the work.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathstalker:
....it is the central core of my race.(besides the fact that the picture ROCKS!, and brings a much needed female element to SE4).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about an Amazon race? Too bad my graphic skill and equipment are zero.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

I can see this is going to be a hot topic for a while. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

------------------
"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patrick Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

This thread made me curious about this artist so I downloaded the Y'Gathian Free States shipset to see the race portrait. Very nice indeed. I'd like to know who the artist is so I can check out more of her work.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

She has her main Gallery at Elfwood, which is a site that hosts art for free for amateur artists. The main site is www.elfwood.com and has thousands of wonderfully talented artists and writers hosted there.

Her section in particular is http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/b/e/bergkvist/

Enjoy! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Hotfoot
"Sir, we're being hailed..."
"What? They said today would be clear and cool!"

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Well. . . hmm. I feel like I should talk about this as an artist, because, quite frankly, this topic is rather near and dear to me.

Firstly, just so it's clear- this is not intended as a flame of any sort. Deathstalker did the right thing, once he discovered that someone was unhappy with the use of their work.

At the same time, this post contains some helpful hints on using an artist's work, and some pretty harsh ranting about the current state of things, so be aware that I have a strong opinion about this and it doesn't match most of the posters'.

I'm a semi-professional artist who's worked on a number of freeware games over the Last 4 years- Mythos and The Xenology Crisis being the best examples. I've never gotten paid a dime for any of my game work, but I've enjoyed it, and I've been sharpening my skills in the process, so it's been a fair trade.

I'm now at a point in my skills where I can make professional-quality works in 3D, and well. . . I don't put stuff on the Net unless I expect it to get stolen. That's right. . . not "borrowed", "used as fan art" or other phrases. . . it's theft. If I create it, and you like it- buy it! Or view it on a website I designed to get hits, so that I get paid. . . anything else is theft, imho.

But the Internet is no respecter of my rights. If I mainly worked in physical mediums, such as painting or sculpture. . . well, people can forge my works, sure. . . but I'm not famous, and nobody will ever bother. But on the Internet, it's easy to steal the work, and very difficult to track down thieves. After all, they're usually kids who threw up a Tripod site, and they're long gone before I find out that my work's being used elsewhere, so I'm screwed.

Art is the single most commonly-stolen item on the Internet. As a result, I and other artists like me have had to go and dig up crusty legal material specifying the license under which we're distributing our work, because otherwise we're barely covered under copyright law- since we didn't give due notice, the law assumes we don't care about our rights to have our works disseminated in the manner in which we choose. So people have to hit "I agree" before they can access our sites, or. . . we just have to assume that it's going bye-bye, and hope that this will bring more people to our sites. That's a totally BS way of doing things.

As a result of all of the above, many artists have taken their sites down, because the "free publicity" is worthless, if no-one ever buys your current works or commissions new ones. It's a waste of bandwidth, time and energy, not to mention the cost, if it's a privately-owned site.

Big companies can afford the effort to track down thieves, and gently remind them that they aren't allowed to steal from their expensive talent pool. I hate to put it this way, but a "cease and desist" order from a lawyer is a very gentle way of shutting you down. They can do a *lot* worse, and will if they have to, although usually your ISP will shut you down asap if they even ask.

But for those of us who aren't working for corporations. . . well, we're stuck, aren't we? We don't want to put our art on the Web, because it will get stolen. On the other hand, if we *don't* put it up, nobody knows we're artists, and we'll have to troll around for clients or teams to work with. Having been down this road with game teams multiple times, I've had different results depending on the people involved. I turned down a recent project offer, for example, because the 17-year-old "project coodinator" didn't understand that while the team can commision my work, and I will work for free on small stuff, any major project requires very strict controls on who gets to use my work, and how. He simply couldn't get it through his skull that he would have to have someone over the age of 18 sign an actual physical document and send it back to my home http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif gee, how. . . ancient! How quaint! Someone won't work without knowing their content won't get used for other projects that are commercial in nature. . . &lt;lol&gt;

Anyhow, I'm done ranting now. . . here are my hints for dealing with all of the semi-pro folks out there:

1. Always find out who created what you're going to use. Ignorance is not an excuse, under the law. And you should be crediting the artist or owners of that art always in derivative work, if you're going to make the "free publicity" argument work. Always include the trademark or trade name of whatever you're using, as well, and make it clear that the original conception was not your idea.

2. Always ask before you use someone's work, even if the topic is derivative. If you're making a "fan" work, you should ask permission of the legal owners of the material before building anything. "Fan" stuff falls into a very big gray area. . . but basically unless you're distributing it using your own bandwidth, and have no banner ads or other revenue-generating material, you are violating the law's rather vague protection for derivative works. In other words, most folks do not qualify to produce fan works. Making, for example, a Marvel game, and then distributing it via iDrive would be illegal.

3. If it's a semi-pro artist, work out a deal. People like me will often work with you for free, if we trust you. We'll improve the original art, for example, or change it around to suit your needs. In order to build that trust, express your willingness to enter into formal legal agreements(i.e., physical signed documents) that protect the artist from having their work used improperly. Make sure that the artist understands how you intend to use the work- if you're going to take an illustration of a face, for example, and have it associated with evil actions, the artist may object to its use. Be prepared to work with the artist, and don't simply regard them as a tool you need to complete your game idea.

4. Lastly, If in doubt, don't use it. If you have any doubts as to who produced a piece of art, and in what context, don't use it unless you can be sure that it was released under some sort of agreement. "Free" does NOT mean that the artist has said, "gee, do whatever you want with this". The artist, when asked, is probably going to say, "You can use my art on your website, but a game is probably not an acceptable use." Or they may say, "Cool! A game! Just make sure I'm given credit, ok?" If you don't *know*, and you do it anyway, don't be surprised if you get bit, like Deathstalker was :P


[This message has been edited by Argh (edited 09 June 2001).]

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

All,

Argh has a lot of good and valid points, but there is one thing that no one has pointed out.

THE FRIEND OF THE ARTIST HAS NO LEGAL STAKE IN THE ARTWORK; DOES NOT OWN IT; AND HAS NOT REPRESENTED THEMSELVES AS A LEGAL AGENT OF THE ARTIST.

Only the artist or someone LEGALLY acting on the artists behalf can sue for copyright infringement. Think about it... I have NO legal ties to Kodak Corporation. Do you think I have ANY legal means to force you NOT to use their logo on your web page? Not a chance. I can tell them that you are doing so, but *I* have no stake in this, and cannot take action myself.

Deathstalker is being completely reasonable in this. Deathstalker, if you are concerned about this, IGNORE the artists "friend" and contact the artist directly. Ask her for permission to use the image, or simply remove it from your site if she says no.

BTW, most corporations, even big ones, will ask you to "cease and desist" before they will sick actual lawyers on your, or try to gain monetary "damages" for infringement.

Don't be worried about it. Just do the right thing and contact the artist.

Col. John

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

I checked the artist's website. If I recall correctly, she said you are free to use certain images on your website without her explicit permission. But... she doesn't want you to use any of her images for your own roleplaying characters. So... if you use the picture to represent an entire race, I would say that the statement on her website grants you permission to use the picture.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Someone mentioned that ignorance is not an excuse in the eyes of the law.

I thought I should also mention that incompetence is also not an excuse in the eyes of the law, thus, doing anything without reading copyright notices will put you in danger of being sued. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular (as DS mentioned that there were no notices on his page), just thought that I would mention it.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
I checked the artist's website. If I recall correctly, she said you are free to use certain images on your website without her explicit permission. But... she doesn't want you to use any of her images for your own roleplaying characters. So... if you use the picture to represent an entire race, I would say that the statement on her website grants you permission to use the picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two of the pictures are specificaly denied permission to be used for anything and the rest excluded for Role Playing. I am sure we could debate for a long time wether or not a race picture in SE4 is role playing or not. I think it is, you are role playing the emperor/supreme leader/etc... of this race.

Web site says: -
"As usual, I'll let you use my pictures (not the tutorials, though, and not Indeoque's image nor the one of Yeeyan and Clari) on your webpage as long as the page isn't commercial. And as usual, I don't want you to use the images for your roleplaying games characters. "

and
"The material (pictures, stories, etc) found at this site have been provided by the contributing artists who kindly gave me permission to show them.

Copyright and all rights therein are maintained by the artists, notwithstanding that they have offered their works here electronically. It is understood that persons copying this information will adhere to the terms and constraints invoked by each author's copyright. These works may not be reposted without the explicit permission of the copyright holder.

The fact that something has been published at Elfwood and posted on the Internet is in itself a clear message that the artist/writer wants it to be seen, and that he or she is not interested in collecting a toll each time someone takes a look at/reads it.

However, this does not mean that ordinary copyright concepts have ceased to apply - there is still someone who has the copyright to the work. Note, that Elfwood itself is never the copyright holder; it only benefits from a non-withdrawable but also non-transferable "permission to publish". Instead, it is either the original author(s) or a conventional publisher who is the copyright holder. Please respect their rights, and abide by the following natural rules.

No rights or permissions are granted for display of these works on other web sites, webchats or in other forms. Please contact Linda Bergkvist (ebonykeep@hotmail.com) for details on using his or her works.

Elfwood is not a Clipart area!

Please don't mail the any of the Elfwood Administrators regarding permissions to use copyrighted pictures at Elfwood, they cannot give you these permissions - only the artist or writer (copyright holder) can.

Finally, please, read the legal information for more copyright details.




[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 10 June 2001).]

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Well I have heard from the artist and gotten things sorted out. She has denied use of the picture for my purposes, as is her right as owner/creator of the picture. As I have said before I have comissioned Adres to make a replacement picture, hopefully it will be done in the near future.

Thank you everyone for your time and understanding.

Steve (Deathstalker)



------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

I'm am truly sorry to hear about this DS. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Just want to let you know I replaced the offending picture with a new one I made.
I apologize with the author of that picture, Linda Bergkvist. Although I never intended to use her work without permission I should have asked where this picture came from before using it.
Although my new picture is not as good as hers, I think that being made of the same materials, it matches better with the ships and makes the whole shipset more consistent. http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/downloads/ygath/

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

good show Lescano, I think your work is much more in spirit with the rest of the art on the shipset and in the game, while still capturing the feeling of the other artists subject matter.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

Wasn't there supposed to be a new standard / technology coming out that would digitally sign / identify a pic? IIRC, it was something like a section of the image with a microscopic (0.00001 pixel) sized signature (or thumbprint or something like that).

Has anyone else heard of this or am I losing my mind (or living in "my own private Idaho").

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

rdouglass, if you're losing your mind then so am I because I have also heard of that standard/technology.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

I did a web search on 'watermark' and found this URL.
http://www.digimarc.com/news/pr00-32.htm

Pretty cool stuff.

Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!
 

I agree with Argh. Very good points. You must always ask for permission before using someone else's work.