Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN plus editor's choice. The envelope has really been pushed. What do we need to do to get SEV to this level? What's Aaron's thoughts on GalCiv2:DA? There are lots of good ideas there that can be incorperated in SE.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/763/763792p3.html

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

meh. We don't need most of the ideas from GalCiv in SE.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Does it have multiplayer yet? If not SEV is still better... note that I don't like SEV but a lack of multiplayer automatically make GalCiv a worse game.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

...And it needs to have Co-Op play for full points...

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Get SE5 to GalCiv's level, comparatively?

Fix bugs.
Improve UI
Improve AI

Done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Most of the other ideas aren't all that applicable to SE5, since they're opposite ends of the same genre..and others have been in for a long, long time (designing empires? playing non-human empires?)

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

After playing GalCiv2:DA for a while I love the ship construction. You can build practically anything. The AI is extremely challenging and I spying has really been updated. I also like how ground combat is handled.

Politics makes a real difference too. But the tactical combat in SEV is much better.

There is much to like here. I'm hoping SEV will some day step up. Any way to to get StrategyFirst to invest with some staffing dollars to improve this one?

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Ship construction is good, but I don't think it does anything gameplay effects wise.

..have you seen SFI's other titles? I wouldn't count on any cash from them anytime soon.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I don't want to see Aaron try to implement a ship modeler... that would be a colossal waste of time and resources (or money if SFI hires programmers).

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Despite my complaints of SE5's interface, GalCiv's interface really is very "typical" and reminds me of homeworld's interface crossed with web2.0 glossy effects to appear generically safe mainstream.

SE5's interface actually feels a bit retro to me, and that's not a bad thing (just the layout bothers me and prompts too)

As for multiplayer, Hasn't GalCiv developers learned that multiplayer games is the what sells, and that the future (imo) for Space empires and other 4x games is massively multiplayer games.

As for ship design, I think SE5 needs a bit more polishing, and it'll be just fine. Now if we could get a construction quere management system like SE3's back, I'd be a really happy camper -- but it would have to be programmed from the beginning so we can have a simple mode for people who don't micromanage fleet building, so I doubt we'll see it in SE5.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

They conducted a completely unbiased poll on their web site which showed that most people would prefer other features over multiplayer. Did I mention it was unbiased, simply asking if players would like other planned features cut to fit in multiplayer?

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

No matter how good anyone ever makes AI it is still not as fun as playing against other people. Plain and simple.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Agreed.

As for polls, they are like statistics. They can be bent any damned way you want if you need them to and frequently involve waffles.

I get the impression that GalCiv players are the kind of people who prefer Solitare. On the flip side, SE players are more Poker, Blackjack, and Baccarat type of people.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I like GalCiv, what draws me to SE is the complexity. Combat is pretty simple in GC, very rock paper scissors and linear. Weapons don't really differ except in power/cost. Since SE has tactical combat it opens up allot more. Other then that i like GC just fine.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

"There are lies, damn lies, and statisics." I've always loved that quote, not sure where it comes from though.

I bought and played GalCiv2 a while back, when it was released. Definitely not going to bother with their expansion, simply because...well, GalCiv2 was boring. What didn't I like about it?

Simply put, the AI cheated. They may have said it didn't, but I noticed several behaviours that drew me to the conclusion that it did. I probably couldn't prove it, but I know it. Second, as has been mentioned, multiplayer. Enough said there. Third, combat sucked ***. While the ship builder what a little bit interesting, it really had no effect on the game whatsoever. I know there's people out there who like spending time creating pretty ships...but that sort of thing just doesn't turn my crank. Fourth, diplomacy was weak. Sure, you can say the same thing about SEIV/SEV (though SEV has a lot of promise), but combine it with 1-3 above, and it makes the game a lot worse. I also didn't like the economic model, even SEIV/SEV's planetary percentage works better in my opinion.

On the plus side, it was really pretty! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Thus ends my mini-rant about GalCiv2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I haven't played the game; however, I wouldn't be surprised if the AI did cheat. I have read a number of times in the past that programmers will give an AI cheat or cheat like abilities. In each of the commentaries were this was admitted the designers would point out the same thing. Which is (basically) short of massive development, effort, space, and computing power there is no way to make a great non-cheating AI.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I don't buy into the AI cheating on purpose. Brad (I think that is his name) has always been pretty open and forthcoming about the galciv games.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

It may not cheat in this one, and I am not even saying that is that way for every game with AI. What I am saying is that I have read over the years instances where game designers admitted to making an AI with cheat abilities to give the players a better challenge. So if the designer admitted giving this AI something extra to push it along I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

There's tons of games where the AI cheats, but it's rarely kept secret from what I've experienced.

As for GalCiv

http://www.galciv2.com/media/mediaguide.html

Pretty neat way they've made the whole AI thing, in my opinion. And especially the "It's multithreaded. That means while you are taking your turn, the game is multitasking within itself to generate a strategy." part.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Cheating AI is done by many games like the Civilization games. I wouldn't doubt that GalCivII uses it. If it does it is wrong fo them to tout theier AI because anyone can make a AI that cheats good at the game.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I too have read what the developer said, and, with no disrespect intended to him and his team, I will believe what I have experienced before I believe a statement from the developer, who has reason to want people to believe their incredible AI doesn't cheat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

"Pretty neat way they've made the whole AI thing, in my opinion. And especially the "It's multithreaded. That means while you are taking your turn, the game is multitasking within itself to generate a strategy." part. "

Actually this is a little neat tidbit, because on the flip side, this sounds like spin. To me, it indicates the game is peeking at what I'm doing over my shoulder. Maybe the developer meant something else, but that's the way it sounds to me.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

It means the AI is planning its moves and research and such while you take your turn, rather than waiting until you hit end turn.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Yah, whereas in SE V for instance, the AI is not doing any thinking before you press the end-turn button( to my knowledge, anyway ). In other words, GC is taking advantage of the free CPU power while you're doing your turn so that you have a shorter wait when you do press end turn.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Sounds like a better system.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Right now I'd like to see the SE5 AI cheat if it gave me a better game.

I bought GC1 and hated it because it really did cheat. The AI knew where all the good planets where and immediately sent colony ships there. GC2 didn't do that but the campaign was a tedious grind and it didn't really hold my interest. Killer AI though and a quick play.

Wasn't there a poll on here that showed most people played or mainly played single player?

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Yes one I did. I was surprised that most answered solo play. However, I purposely left the reason for playing solo blank as well as the version of SE being played and to what degree.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I don't see SE as a very suitable game for multiplayer, really. PBW simply doesn't appeal to most (younger?) players since you get a limited number of turns to play each day, which isn't good enough if you've got several hours to fill. And the game is too time-demanding for real-time multiplayer, both in regards to waiting for other players to finish their turn, and the hours it takes to actually play a game.

This is why I think AI, UI and turn processing times are the most important factors for SE V right now.

GC2 has got at least two of those things right, the AI and turn processing, but that game is lacking in so many other areas, and the direction they've chosen to take the game in has alot less potential than the direction SE is heading in. So I wouldn't really put it up as much of a competitor for SE, gameplay-wise.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I have seen no evidence of cheating in GC2, it's usually weak players who make these claims.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I don't see how calling Renegade 13 or anyone else a weak player is called for. Your opinion is welcomed but you do not need to insult others to get your point across. Saying a player is weak because they raise a concern about the AI is speculation on your part anyway.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Raapys said:
I don't see SE as a very suitable game for multiplayer, really.

Completely disagree. It is, in my experience, perfect for multiplayer play. I have/had no problems with PBW as a "younger player," having picked up SE4 for exclusive multiplayer play when I was 16. There have been a lot of "younger players" around here active in PBW over the years. Its more a matter of temperament than age.

Nothing says you can't fill the extra time available for gaming after you play your PBW turns with some single player gaming. There is certainly no either/or situation.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I'm with Fyron on this one; I believe it's a question of temperment, rather than age (as with many things). I began playing SEIV at about age 15 or 16, and started playing multiplayer shortly after. Much more fun when interacting with real people, and the number of turns per day really didn't factor into it. Fewer turns was actually kind of nice, having school to attend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You are entitled to that opinion, as I'm entitled to my opinion that you're an ***.

You do not and can not know the reasons behind my belief that it cheats; therefore your statement is utterly meaningless, yet insulting at the same time.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Well, whether you disagree or not about how well-suited it is for multiplayer, the point still stands: PBW doesn't appeal to most players( I am not disputing the fact that it's tons more fun to play against human players ).

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say somewhere around 95% of the player base will never touch PBW( usually, only the minority of players even partake or visit the forums ), making it largly a single-player game.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Also you can get in like 10 PBW games so your playing new turns all the time.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

Raapys, I think you're really mistaken about the PBW. It's creation is what fuels a lot of play in SE. Most people who use the PBW, play multiple games at the same time.

Plus don't make a 95% statistic without first conducting an online poll http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I didn't exactly make a 95% statistic: I said, if I were to venture a guess.

I'm not sure what you mean by me being mistaken about PBW. Do you suggest that I am wrong about how many people are playing it?

If that is the case, and while there's always the possibility that I am gravely mistaken, remember that though a part of the players on the forums are going to be playing PBW, the biggest part of all non-multiplayer-only games' player bases are casual players who will most probably never visit the forums, let alone find out what and where PBW is, register, and then start playing it.

Thus I consider SE primarily a single-player game, whereas I'd consider a game such as Half-life and its mods more of a multiplayer game. In SE only the 'hardcore' players, like us here on the forums, are going to consider PBW, while in Half-life everyone and their cat can press the 'multiplayer' option, join a game and have fun.

That's how I see it, anyway. It's not like I have documented facts to back it up, so let's just agree to disagree on this very off-topic subject.

Re: Galciv2: Dark Avatar gets a 9.0 in IGN
 

I bought Gal Civ I and played it several times. The AI was very, very challenging. But I didn't like the combat. I also didn't like that you set spending rates for ALL your planets at the same time. I also didn't like how the game radically changed with each new version to provide a better challenge for the folks playing on the highest difficulties. I began to feel like Gal Civ was primarly about the really tough AI to the expense of all else.

I thought about buying Gal Civ II several times and even more so when the expansion came out. But then I remembered the dry gameplay compared to SEV. So, I decided to pass. Then, I played a little SEV. But I had forgotten how horrible the UI is. So, I think I'm going to browse some websites for MOO 3 patches and give that game another shot. (Just kidding!) Seriously, I'm looking for a Shrapnel Game to spend money on. I'm gonna give Dominions 3 a try and wait another three months for more SEV bug fixes.