Repairs
 

Is there a material cost for repairs ?? (i.e. in minerals, organics, radioactives, depending on what components require repairing)
If not I think there ought to be. Sorry if this has already been suggested to MM

Re: Repairs
 

Nope no cost -- other than the maintenance you normally pay for the on-ship repair component. You don't lose resources every time a ship is repaired.

Personally, I think that's just fine. The maintenance fee satisfactorily represents repair costs in an already abstract system, in my view. But I don't feel strongly about it, and I don't remember similar discussions in the past three months on this board. Might try doing a search to verify that.

Re: Repairs
 

Yes, you do have a valid point.
However, I'm still not entirely convinced,
although I admit it is not a big issue.

Cheers

Re: Repairs
 

I think the current system is fine. It is after all an abstraction, and to what gain would requiring additional consumation of resources? One, as mentioned you are paying maintenance already and two, there is a limit to what can be repaired as the repair components can only work and repair a certain number of components depending on the level. The main reasons for requiring an outlay of additional resources is to provide a limit to how much can be repaired which is already in place and realism. But even damage is an abstraction. The component may not be in fact be totally destroyed, the marking it as such only means that is not functional and the game doesn't allow the use of its abilities. If you remove all the spark plugs from your car, in game terms the engine is destroyed as it will no longer function but the repair of it would hardly require much resources. In repairing, the biggest limiting factor is the presence or not of a ship having a repair component. If ships could simply repair at will or there was no limit to the number of components that could be repaired by a repair component, I could agree with your suggestion as then it would be needed to serve a function, limit repairs. As it is, it would be somewhat redundant. If you feel something needs to be done, then simply increase the cost of the repair component thereby increasing your maintenance costs and making repair ships rare. Due to its cost you wouldn't have one or more in every fleet.

Re: Repairs
 

You make a good point about the repair cost already being included in the maintenance cost. But I think a much more realistic repair model would incorporate the original cost of the component into the time required for repair. It just doesn't make sense to me that it takes the same amount of time to repair eight SM components as it does to repair eight pieces of Armor I.

I doubt this will be included in the game because of it complexity. But if it would be added easily, I would change the game so that a repair component can repair up to 'X' kilotons of component per turn. For example, let's say that even a Repair Component III can only repair 8 KiloTons per turn. By simply changing repair from number of components to total Kilotons, the game would be much, much more realistic, IMHO.

Re: Repairs
 

To a point I would agree. However since its fairly abstract, there would similiar lapses in realism regardless of the system applied. In your example, one could argue that 8 SM components could be more than equal to 8 armor as the armor may be totally replaced whereby the SM components may have a single item which must be repaired or simply replaced because it was all used up and the repair ability is mimicing having additional supplies of that item. For example single bulb flash cameras. Used once they can not take another flash picture until the bulb is replaced, a simple process. The same simple process could be taking place with the SM components. The only problem I have with going totally to KiloTons is the size of units is frequently not necessarily based on anything but play-balance issues in regard to how many one item should be in a same sized ship in comparsion to another. A better system would be if each component was rated as to the difficulty of the item to repair. This would dictate the length of time to make the repair and could allow for hierachies in which some types of repair would require a visit to a SY as a repair component would be insufficient or could only be completed to a certain level. Armor would be exceedingly difficult to repair while in space and in most cases would require a visit to a SY IMO. Utilizing the current system as to not make too much of a change, one could simply add a line to the components file; "Counts as X components for repair". Then one could modify and make the components repair at different rates.

Re: Repairs
 

In a game like SE IV I am not concerned at all about realism. My only question is therefore what would it add to the game: It would make repair more difficult and that IMHO would not be good. Already now it's a good tactic not to destroy enemy ships but to cripple them. Or to gift/trade crippled ships. Your enemy will have to continue to pay maintenance for them and even for a human it's a pain to send a repair ship to the location of the damaged ship. The AI does not do it at all as far as I know. So again IMHO I would rather try to facilitate repair (see my Borg modification) than to make it more expensive.

Re: Repairs
 

I think realism is absolutely essential and should be strived towards, otherwise you lose faith in the game as with many games on the market today. Alright, there is a maintenance cost, but you can simply argue that that represents the running costs of the repair facility itself. It is not realistic to imagine that the repair itself costs nothing in terms of materials and manpower.

This game has a lot going for it but I am frustrated by niggling aspects that don't make sense. Let's aim for perfection even if ultimately it's unacheivable.

Cheers

Re: Repairs
 

You guys are all talking about the maintenance cost of the repair component, but the big expense is in maintaining your damaged ship.

If it takes only four turns to repair the ship, the cost to repair that ship is the same as the cost to build a whole NEW ship, and abandon the old one.

Every turn that you must spend on repairs costs you a lot of money in maintenance of the damaged ship, unless its mothballed at a planet.
Even then, it still costs you to unmothball the ship when repairs are finished.

Re: Repairs
 

That maintenance fee is quite high, glad I don't have to spend 25% of the cost of my car each month to maintain it!
Maintenance should be adjusted. If it worked like population, ie 25% per year, that would make much more sense. Guess that isn't moddable though.
I've always thought repair should cost something but since this cost would be in addition to maintenance, and can't be added, it doesn't bother me as much.

Re: Repairs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
Already now it's a good tactic not to destroy enemy ships but to cripple them. Or to gift/trade crippled ships. Your enemy will have to continue to pay maintenance for them and even for a human it's a pain to send a repair ship to the location of the damaged ship.
Yup it is......

The AI does not do it at all as far as I know.
Yes it can and did on me <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
mottlee@gte.net
"Kill em all let God sort em out"

Re: Repairs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That maintenance fee is quite high, glad I don't have to spend 25% of the cost of my car each month to maintain it!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison since your car can't travel 6-12 sectors per month and doesn't mount shields and a wave motion gun. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I seem to recall someone in a different thread explaining the maintenance cost as the total cost to operate the vessel for a month including personnel costs. If you were to assume that you needed four people to operate your car and included all four of their salaries as part of the yearly maintenance of the car, I think that cost would actually be much more than 25% of the cost of the car.

Re: Repairs
 

If I need 4 people to operate my car I sell the bugger http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I still think it is high, even taking pay into account, considering how advanced the techs are.

Re: Repairs
 

I have my doubts as to whether modern warships and aircraft have operational, maintenance, and personnel costs that run to 300% of the vehicle's cost every year. Granted a space craft would likely be more complex, but I think the relationships should be fairly close. But then again I suppose it depends on if you count only the crew and direct support personnel ie for a plane the flight crew, the plane captain, the maintenance crew etc. I suppose if you total up the indirect support costs it might be 25%, ie quartermasters, cooks, chaplains, JAG's, MPs for base security, construction engineers to maintain a base ad infiniti.

Re: Repairs
 

Don't frget to include fuel costs as well as replacement parts. And insurace for major repairs.

Re: Repairs
 

Somehow I have trouble imagining getting insurange on my Battleship! Heck I can barely afford my car insurance and I only had one fender bender http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Repairs
 

$5,000 a month on a $20,000 vehicle is quite steep, and I think the insurance company would go for it.

Re: Repairs
 

The problem with trying to equate the game's maintenance to RL is you have hundreds if not thousands of uses for money. In the game, there are only two basic uses for resources, building ships and facilities and maintenance. To get the same RL effect of your monthy car payment and insurance as well as the hundred other things you could spend money on it needs to be distorted to cause the same pause and consideration you make spending your money. The fact that so much is being written about it shows that it is working pretty well. If it mirrored RW costs there would be little concern over whether you build this or that and what it costs as we have nothing else to spend it on. With it as it is there is RL concerns over costs exhibited by the amount of space used discussing mothballing and other tactics to reduce or keep costs down.

Re: Repairs
 

I agree the costs have to be elevated for playability's sake. It just seems counter intuitive on the face of it. In my mind I just assumed that the costs came from all the indirect support and infrastructure it costs to keep a military running and fighting.

Re: Repairs
 

lol! Battlship insurance:


Galactic Insurance - Damage Claim Form.
=======================================
Title Mr/Mrs/Ms/Other(please state): Dictator
Surname: Starcrusher-Abomination Prime
First name(s): George Walter

Registration of damaged vehicle: 089-ATK-001
Make, model and colour of damaged vehicle: Generation IV Gazrad Skybastard Deluxe. Aquamarine.

Engine size: 5,000 tonnes.

Describe, in your words, how the damage was caused. Use diagrams where necessary:
I was on my way into enemy territory to obliterate 700 million alien scourge. I was travelling well within the speed limit. On warping into the Baksha system I was confronted with a Rage defence armada who decloaked without signalling and launched a volley of 90 nuclear missiles at my Battlecruiser.

State who, in your opinion, was at fault: The Rage Collective.

Describe the damage to your vehicle: Shield generators and armour plating boiled away into component atoms. Engines vaporised, crew quarters will be radioactive for approx 22,000 years. Windscreen cracked, nearside front headlight slightly damaged.

Describe any injuries sustained by yourself or your passengers:
127 crew members reduced to hairspray by intense radiation. (medical documentation enclosed)



------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Repairs
 

LOL!

Re: Repairs
 

There are always 2 sides to every accident claim... now for the Rages claim form...


(Form as taken from dogscoffs hilarious post)
Galactic Insurance - Damage Claim Form.
=======================================
Title Mr/Mrs/Ms/Other(please state): Primary
Surname: AnnihilationBot
First name(s): Sequencer

Registration of damaged vehicle: 401-GYK-534
Make, model and colour of damaged vehicle:
Class V Aggressor Special Edition (With the Tinted side windows, and roof racks), Silver/Transparent

Engine size: 5,000 tonnes.

Describe, in your words, how the damage was caused. Use diagrams where necessary:
After noticing one of our neighbouring lesser species going the wrong way through a one way warp point, we approached to inform the pilot of their error. Our 500 Megaton message beacons (all 90 of them), were not welcomed by this obviously inexperienced pilot.

State who, in your opinion, was at fault:
The lesser species

Describe the damage to your vehicle: Besides the obvious bubbling in the tinting, which is almost impossible to rectify. Various biological components from the decayed former crew members of their ship are splashed all over the paint work, and radiation has set their impressions there permanantly. Lastly, the small idol hanging off the rear-vision window fell off and is presumed lost.

Describe any injuries sustained by yourself or your passengers:
Maintenance bots 8-43 were taken offline for several cycles, delaying the reattachment of the roofracks taken off due to the blatent speed and strafing tactics of the other pilot. (Spare parts claim forms in pages following)

Re: Repairs
 

HOLD EVERYTHING!!!!
A witness has been found. The witness states there was a third party involved. They say it was the Phong who caused it all.
Those philthy, phreaking Phong phanatics, ya just can't trust them!

Re: Repairs
 

There really is no other way I see to limit your builds except maintenance. If you ever played where you had a no maintenance race you can see the differance. I just think 25%/turn is high but at least it can be easily changed.

Re: Repairs
 

Well, another way to do it would be to add more things to spend your money on: (as per Beck's comment.) Facility maintenence, debt repayments, civilian welfare, commerce/ industry and infrastructure and other things.

Of course this is micromanagment hell, (or heaven, for us MM perverts that like that sort of thing=-) not to mention a lifetime of additional programming for Aaron.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Repairs
 

Forget that, I can't balance my check book !!! Keep it simple even if it doesn't always make sense, it is the future after all and who knows, maybe you can get insurance for you Battleship then http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif