Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

units:

-022 - KV-1 M1940: <font color="red">Wrong gun</font> should be "050 - 76.2mm L30 L-11",
also wrong name should be KV-1 M1939.

<font color="red">Additional note on unit 022:</font>
This unit has an availability date of December 1939. However in the Russo- Finnish Winterwar only 1 KV tank prototype saw action in December 1939 on a single battle. The tanks massproduction and use did not come until after the Winterwar from late March 1940 onwards. So for gameplay and realism the units availability could be changed to Apr 1940.

-290 - KV-1E M1940: <font color="red">Wrong gun</font> should be "048 - 76.2mm L31 F-32"

-545 - KV-1 M1942: <font color="red">wrong Winter icon</font> should be "4457" (whit the longer gun barrel graphic).

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

There are all new KV Icons in the game for V2 so the old icons are not relavant

I will consider changing the introduction date. If I do, you understand someone ELSE will complain that since it was used it SHOULD be included http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

However, I found one source that says....."First production models, these tanks were prone to frequent breakdowns, but were highly resiliant to anti-tank weapons during the Winter War. These tanks were armed with the 76mm L-11 tank gun. Also called KV-1 M1939."
http://www.thebestlinks.com/KV__MM__1.html

The line...... "but were highly resiliant to anti-tank weapons during the Winter War" indicates either that one tank was very, very busy or there were more than one. So what's your source for this "only one" info ??

EDIT. A different source says....."The prototypes of this tank first saw action while piercing the Mannerheim line during the war against Finland."

Prototypes--- indicating there were more than just one in Finland
http://www.lemaire.happyhost.org/char/complet/589.html

I will make the two unit corrections. That source I quoted confirms the L-11 gun on the M1939 and the F-32 on the KV-1E M1940

Don

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Check your sources and see if you can tell me when the last KV-1's were withdrawn from the front

Don

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Darn! Shouldn't this topic have come two days earlier? Just returned a very detailed book on Soviet pre- and WW2 AFV's of all kinds, so just what do I recall...
The book suggested KV-1 prototype participated. It was set to attack a Finnish strongpoint and it survived the battle with IIRC 14 hits by 37mm and 47mm guns to various parts, only damage done was disabled main gun due to barrel hit - the gun was changed and the tank was ready to roll again. However it was noted the 76mm gun is not enough for breeching fortification line.
As for last KV's, the book hinted that although KV's were being phased out with the advent of IS series, some KV's of various vversions participated even in the battle of Berlin, most likely these would be KV-1S and KV-85 variants (my wild *** guess as I don't have reference at hand).

Just checked out battlefield.ru, they claim only that "tank was sent to front" without specifications, however they're using "tank" hinting just one piece went.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

I think that can be too useful

Fotos with description about sreened KV-1 tanks
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/g...es/KV_1scr.htm

Table with data about production of russian tanks see KV-1
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/w...tion_20_41.htm

Data about production KV tanks years 1941-43
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/w...duction.htm#KV

Data about guns used in rusian tanks
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/w.../art_tanks.htm

And about Sights used in this guns
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/w...sign_tanks.htm

Good site (In Cyrlic) about KV-1 but you can find Model 1939 even if you can't read in russian like I
http://armoured.vif2.ru/kv-1.htm

Ultimate source and the best what I found too in russian
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/KV/

About use KV tank in Winter war
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/b...ar/KV_finn.htm
And the map of this battle
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/m...K_T_100_40.jpg

So this tank model was produced to december 1943. But I read in the book about Polish People army LWP. Two this tank (KV-1) was send to this army in January 1945 as a school equipment. So I think that mean a year after halting the production tank wasn't in line units. Conclusion is this model was retrat from front line somewhere around early/half 1944

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Yes, thats is cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


That is wery hard to pinpoint precisely but generaly the tanks were used until battlefield losses phased them out. Acording to a book I have on the subject of Soviet tanks "Punaiset panssarit by Pekka Kantakoski" on page 115 it says that there were no "confirmed" sightings of KV-1 tanks in the summer 1944 offensive on the Karelian isthmus (Finland) and that by that time they had all been replaced by KV-85's and IS- heavy tanks. Now this does not necessarily mean that there weren't some still left in summer of 1944 but they were wery rare by that time.


Yes I was looking at the Russian battlefild site too. I have also read about it somewhere else and acording to what I had heard I got the understanding that only one prototype was used.

However looking at the book again "Punaiset Panssarit" it says not one but two KV-1 prototypes took part in the attack in December 17 1939, the book may be wrong in this since its made in 1996 and new information may have become available since then from the Russian archives. Acording to the book and the info on the Russian battlefield site it was the same engagement where the SMK heavy tank prototype and T-100 were tested. Of the SMK tank there are photographs taken also. From those test the KV-1 was chosen (wisely) as the new heavy tank for mass production.

Here's the link for the article on the battlefield.ru -site I was reading, scroll down to the mid way of the page and it starts to speak about the winterwar whit KV -prototype, SMK, T-100, etc...:
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...&amp;Itemid=48

Also during the winterwar the KV-1 tank if it was indeed used more it was wery unknown to the finnish troops and also it became as a completely new tank to the Germans in 1941. Also less than 200 KV-1 M1939 (the first series production) manufactured during 1940, so it was not wery numerious.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Hmmm... might be an interesting idea for a scenario that KV-1, SMK and T-100 test in the Winterwar. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously I was thinking of making my first scenario about it and that is when I started to study the availability dates and usage of the KV-1. So I hope you do not get angry from my nagging. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

See if you can find anything at all on the "Kv-57" It's in the game so somebody had info on it but I cannot find any

Don

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

source: Russian battlefield -site again.

http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...&amp;Itemid=50

There is a line: "In May 1943, the "T-34 tank-hunter" and "KV tank-hunter" were accepted for service again. They were armed with modernised ZIS-4M tank gun... "

So far that is the only info Ive found about it.

So it would look as the KV-57 was a similar thing to the T-34/57, the arnament was changed to a more effective (in AT role not HE) gun. These were limited edition vehicles. The vehicle ingame seems to reprecent this tank.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Interesting, The Kv-85 did not have a BMG.

Now removed from the unit..

Don

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/KV/KV85_Kubinka.jpg
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/KV/KV85_2.jpg
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/KV/KV85_1.jpg
3MGs...

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

It says in the post you just quoted that the one in the monument was inaccurately reproduced with regards to the BMG. The link from which that statement was taken has a number of historical photos which would appear to back up the claim.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

It seems to be. KV-1s with 85mm gun (in the first picture.) is reason of my mistake.

Excuse my bad English.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

yeah, it is likely the same tank, but before it was placed on the momument. The link suggests that there is only on KV-85 remaining and that's it, which would seem to support the idea that the relatively modern picture you posted would be of the same vehicle too.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/a...27_kv85_19.jpg
Fixed front machine gun...

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

This is another tank in Kubinka armor museum.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Oh, my mistake. That would seem to contradict the idea that there is only one as the other link would suggest.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

It is experimental KV-1s with 85mm gun (not a KV-85). My mistake;).
KV-85 really has not ball-mounted machine gun, but it has a fixed-mounted machine gun.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

I'll dig around for more photos that can hopfully clear this up. I can see where I missed that part of the quote earlier. However.....

THIS PHOTO

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...325-kv85__.jpg

shows no "fixed" MG on the part of the hull that the one in post #497298 does but does hint at a ball mount on the other side of the front hull and that could easily be "fixed" and not flexible

I'll put the BMG back in again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Don

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

web page The following work was accomplished during the mounting of the new turret on the KV-1S: the under-turret box, in which the enlarged-diameter ring of the improved tank turret fit with difficulty, was widened. The basic load of 70 main gun rounds was stored in improved racks. With the placing of the gun and the ammunition racks, the designers had to delete the fifth crewmember -the gunner-radio operator, for whom there was no longer any space. The hull-mounted DT machine-gun, which previously was carried in a movable ball mounting, was now fixed. The power pack, transmission, and suspension components were taken straight from the KV-1S.

The first KV-85s were re-worked from excess KV-1S hulls, welding up the hole for the ball-mounted hull machine gun. The incorrect opinion has appeared in Western literature that there was a "second version" of the KV-85 with a flexible front machine gun. This confusion most likely arose as a result of study by Western experts of the only KV-85 tank that has been preserved to this day (monument in Avtovo, St.Peterburg), where a mistake was made in the restoration process. According to archival data, 148 KV-85 tanks were produced; they were sent to the front beginning in September 1943. Simultaneously, output of the KV-1S tank was continued until December 1943.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

It is KV-1S with 85mm gun (not KV-85). Take attention on turret:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...325-kv85__.jpg
http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/a...27_kv85_19.jpg

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Ok, after looking all the sources stated here I am quite convinced that only 1 KV prototype operated in the Summa sector of Mannerheim line during the Winterwar. As said it was a prototype which suffered all sorts of problems, but due to hurrying it was desided by the Soviets to put it in mass production nearly as it was. Renaming to KV-1 model 1939 which has caused confucion as to when the tank was fullu available. So the model name (1939) is not for production start time but for first prototype appearance. Full production started sometime in late March 1940.

Also in March after the war was already over 2 KV prototypes (whit 152mm gun) were tested against already empty Mannerheim line forts. These tanks were a direct response to upgun the KV-1 to destroy forts. It was aproved after the test and further production started in 1940 whit the name of KV-2.

So the notion of KV-1 tank(s) in plural refers to all these three (3) KV tank prototypes of which only one piece (a KV-1 m1939 prototype) actualy saw some combat in the winterwar in the already mentioned Summa sector.

----

Btw. just watched a documnetary on Discovery Channel about the KV-tanks. It showed footange from destroyed T-26 tanks in Winterwar saying it was from Spanish civil war. Gets better when there was a picture of Finland as it was after 1944 and it placed the Mannerheim line where the Salpa line is locaded about 100km off from its correct location! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Then the best part when tens of KV-1 tanks are said to have attacked in the village of Summa whit finnish troops destroying them all whit molotov cocktails. On the backgroud footage of KV-85 and JS-2 tanks attacking against Germans sometime in 1944 or 1945 is shown.

I would rate the document hopelesly inaccurate in its historical accuracy, but it did show that the myth of massed KV-1 tanks being used in winterwar is existing at least somewhere. It is not in any Finnish history books nor does it make any sence, so where the myth came is a complete mystery to me.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

One possible way to correct this would be to change KV-1 m1939 availability to April 1940. Then add a new KV prototype tank whit it's own class and formation whit availability of December 1939- to March 1940. This way the AI would not buy KV tanks in winterwar and players would know that it is a prototype, but still be able to buy it if they like.

Re: Soviet Union SPOB 11 KV-1 tank-gun confusion.
 

Hey Discovery channel is all about discoveries.. right? So nothing wrong there.

I love it when they talk about DU ammo and show M109s shooting indirect fire.