Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

I'm new using R'yleh but im not used to uw nations and astral nations. In addition R'yleh seems very particular whith all that strange summons. I'm approacing an new mp game with my friends and one of them is very strong (4 mp wins in a row). Some suggestions on tactics and pretender design? Thank you.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

I prefer LA, myself - all the same units, but now it's crazy time. If you think it's hard trying to break into a water nation from land, now try doing it when you're insane. So a lot of this is derived from LA strats, and they may not work as well.

1. Basic underwater expansion strategy is a large mass of lobo guards (50-100, set to hold and attack) backed up with maybe 10-20 Illithids. You're the only party with ranged weapons under water, so you paralyze a good chunk of the enemy before your cheap disposable meatshields swarm all over it. You can vary the mix of Illithids/Lobos - a single Illithid costs the same as 10 Lobos, so fiddle with it and see how comfortable you are with Lobo losses vs. high commitment of gold.

2. Voice of Tiamat is a good early research priority, along with Haruspex and dark knowledge (water/earth/nature/death seem to be the most common underwater sites). You can use a Slave Mage with a couple boosters to cast Contact Naiad, and she can kick off a clam based economy for you. This is of vital importance for LA, when you need to fund the switch from Starspawn to Void Spectres as your people die off. However, I'm sure you can think of some good things to do with your pearls (late game, communion -> mass enslave is a nice gamewinner, but there's a lot of time to kill before you can do that).

3. Pretender design - I'm pretty bad at pretender design, and most of my experience with Rl'yeh comes in the late age where it's much more important to go Turmoil/Luck/Growth due to your dwindling population. It might also help to know what nations your opponents are playing, to know if you need massive Astral power just to be safe. I often just take massive Order/Growth/magic scales to be safe with most non-blood non-lethal domain nations.

That said, a sleeping Void Lord with strong Astral (comes with the package, take at least 5-6 to be safe), Death (5), and Water (4) skills and dominion 9 makes a pretty tough contender due to his combo of life drain, fear (bonus from death gives him +10), awe, chill of winter, soul vortex, and astral shield. Hook him up with a Robe of Shadows, Luck Pendant, and a mix of resistance/regeneration/reinvigoration items (can never have too much) and he's a bad dude.

You can pay for him with a variety of options. If there is a lot of water (and you'd best hope there will be) then Cold 3 is a nice pick, since it has no effect under water besides making your Chill of Winter more effective. Sloth 3 is also a good option, assuming you're going to go for lobo guards / shamblers with Illithid backup rather than Meteorite Guards.

4. Raid, raid, raid. The single most important advantage any underwater nation has is the ability to raid from relative safety. You'll have to vary land tactics, since you are not longer the only ranged unit out there, and you may want to invest in some moderately armored troops just for that purpose (or you could grab another big chunk of Illithids to blast enemy archers - again, LA strat, since LA has so many freespawn needing to die that I never buy any soliders save for Illithids). Where possible, make a special priority of raiding lands that allow for Shambler purchases - but then again, it's nice to have a predictable raiding pattern so you can break it.

That's all for me.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Some old threads shows some excellent R'lyeh tactics, but some good points for them are.

Main R'lyeh tactics is Meatwall + artillery. As long as your meatwall is expendable you will grasp the general idea for them. You got access to cheap fodder and nasty artillery. Shamblers to trample small stuff, Lobos to swarm big units. Only use Meteorit guards to guard your mages, they are to expensive to use as fodder.

Normal ilthids are usually more cost effective then their warrior counterpart.

Illthid mages are strong in astral, so spells like soulslay and enslave mind are great. But some evocation and alteration spells will work good depending on your random magic paths.

Traitor princes are a decent chasi for thugs with one or two forged items on him. 27 hp and a good armor before magic items is great. He is size 2 (or 3 can't remember) so can be trampled by elephants, but still swarmed by size 1 units. So don't send him off alone, somewhere along the line with your fodder should work most of the time.

For large important battles make sure flyers and flankers can't reach your artillery.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Aside from the cost, I seem to recall illithid soldiers having only mapmove 1 instead of the 2 that normal illithids have -- a fair disadvantage on landmasses with good terrain -- and have a slightly worse mindblast weapon.

With the Void Gate... use priestly starspawn, or perhaps Cthgul once he arrives -- he's supposed to have bonuses there (in D2, he had a reduced chance of going mad, for instance). As soon as you can, give pearls and a 'Returning' script to your summoner. Be aware that once a summoner's skill gets to be fairly high (15?), the chance to get a Vastness (consider GoR...) is actually cut; you'll get more Othernesses et al.

Oh, and get a source of Storms or Darkness. Storms and darkness don't inhibit your mindblasters at all; it's still precision-100.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Order3/Mis 1 (or 2 depending on how you need the points) is standard for all builds in base except for very few exceptions. Sloth3/Cold3 is also fairly standard practice for Ryleh. Growth 3 should also be considered for the vast lobo/illithid armies you'll probably be using. Try to splash earth/air onto your pretender since you won't generally have access to those. Some good picks are dormant Ghost Kings/Void Lord or awakened Wyrm/Kraken. (note if you're using kraken you must take air + water) You also want a decently high dom as Ryleh tends to have dom problems.

Lastly, your army should consist of meteorite guards/lobos/non armored illithids + starspawn mages. Be sure to make a bunch of underwater fort + labs as your uber mages are not cap only.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Personally, I'd never take misfortune as R'lyeh. Their heroes are outstanding.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

The heroes are great, but not that great. I would always take order as R'lyeh, they need the money too bad not to.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Ryleh and Tien Chi I do tend to be wary about taking misfortune. They do have some very nice heroes.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Which heros does R'yleh get? I recall only the one unit that have move 10.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

LA gets a strong Aboleth mage (W4S4 iirc) I suppose MA does too, since he's an EA survivor. That's the only one I got in my game with them.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

I think R'lyeh also gets a powerful Basalt King or something, if I remember correctly he's W4-5. They also get Cthugul, a hero Starspawn, who starts with Void Summoning 3 (1 more than your priest Starspawn), and maybe slightly better magic paths than the normal Starspawn mage. I'm fairly sure MA and LA share the same heros, too, but they might not.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

If Ermor is in the game, go Heat 3.
Use as little chaff as possible. As another poster noted, use the unarmored version of the illithid.

I don't use a bless strategy, and I usually don't rely on star gate much. once he gets up to +10 or +11 I switch him out.

I personally don't remember - but does luck influence the void gate? If so reconsider misfortune.. you dont need scales much at all.

Blood Vengeance rock!

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

I don't think R'lyeh's heroes justify taking a luck scale, in and of themselves. They get a gate summoner who is marginally better at first, then just becomes obsolete when he gets high skill anyways? They get an Aboleth with 4W/4S which is nice, but only 2 misc slots, so ultimately not that spectacular. And they get the Visitor who is 2A/4S or something. Yay, now you finally have an air mage.... with no water. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif He is pretty neat, but nothing to base a strat around a small random chance to possibly, maybe, eventually get him.

I'm a bit surprised by this Cold talk, it actually has NO effect underwater at all? No income loss or fatigue? Wouldn't 3 Cold somewhat hamper your land expansion though? And also, why do people prefer Cold over Heat in this manner? Inquiring minds want to know, I love R'lyeh, and some extra points would really strengthen my approach.

Also I really have to say, despite other scales, R'lyeh really needs 3 Order, they are so gold hungry (top mages non sacred, primary unit 50g apiece), and unless it's going to be a very fast game, at least 1 Growth to insure that even if you get some bad events, your overall income won't decline over time, but a steadily growing pop is very good for them, as upkeep will mount rapidly once you have your second castle pumping out mages.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Cold makes it harder for Argatha to invade your water provinces.

I tend to agree about the heros though. WIth Order 3, Misfortune 1 or 2 seems like a more optimal choice to me than Luck.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

So wait, it affects Agartha, because they're cold-blooded, sure that makes sense. But it doesn't affect R'lyeh? O.o I mean, it just seems kind of painful to take a 15% income hit from Cold scale. I have been going 1 Cold, and justifying it by saying it's in Growth, but even 3 Growth is going to take some time to pay off if 3 Cold is devouring your income bonus.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Ocean provinces do not have their income affected by Cold scales. I understand that they are affected by Heat, and I'm not sure whether it affects supply. I think this must be a deliberate feature of ocean provinces on the part of the developers, because oceans are almost always cold.

I also do not know whether you still take the Enc +2 hit for fighting in Cold-3 underwater. I'm AFG or I would check.

-Max

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Well I must admit that I find that somewhat odd though. Yes, it tends to be cold underwater..... But if Heat decreases income in the water, then the justification for that is actually totally backwards, IMO. It should be that Cold is worse underwater, because you're making it FROSTY down there, deep ocean can drop well below freezing without becoming ice because of the huge pressures involved. And on the flip side of the coin, added Heat would not make it HOT underwater, merely not extremely cold. If the original assertion is true, then I would argue that all aquatics should at least have a +1 Cold affinity. Otherwise for some reason we are saying they are perfectly at home with frigid living conditions underwater, yet suddenly when they go on land, the cold has detrimental effects. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

It would probably be a complicated mechanic to code, but it would be interesting to see some Heat increase income underwater, but severely affect aquatics on land. By the same token, the aquatic races that are attenuated to living in frigid waters would find moving onto land easier in cold climes, but would be harmed by excess cold in their already naturally cold underwater homes.


The plot thickens!

Okay, I ran a test, it took some turns to get my nations to 3 Cold and 3 Heat with no unrest from events (I shoulda tossed in Luck to speed that up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif), and here's what I found-

Oceania - 3 Cold - 28240 pop - 705 supplies - 338 income = 83.5 pop/gold
R'lyeh - Even scale - 29700 pop - 884 supplies - 326 income = 91.1 pop/gold
Atlantis - 3 Heat - 29540 pop - 643 supplies - 324 income = 91.1 pop/gold


So at first glance, Cold actually looks like it's giving a 9% income boost (3% per scale?) while reducing supplies slightly. Heat on the other hand is not affecting income, but has a rather huge effect on supplies.

I might check it again later, but this is really weird results so far.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Okay, results of the second test coming in now, to see the synergy of point spending. I did all 3 nations again, but Oceania got the Heat and Atlantis got the Cold this time. Everyone got 3 Order + 3 Growth (just checking straight income potential, not exploring other options for the points), and Oceania and Atlantis used their temp scales to buy 3 Prod as well (R'lyeh has 1 Prod). All 3 have a statue with Dom 5 to simplify that aspect.

Oceania - 3 Heat - 30010 pop - 902 supplies - 447 income = 67.1 pop/gold
R'lyeh - Even - 30360 pop - 1260 supplies - 434 income = 69.9 pop/gold
Atlantis - 3 Cold - 29940 pop - 980 supplies - 485 income = 61.7 pop/gold


The numbers still seem to imply an income boost of about 3% per Cold scale, underwater, at least for aquatic nations. That's not confirmed by me with R'lyeh specifically, but if it's true with both the others.....

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Hmm. Lots of different thoughts on how to play MA R'lyeh. I have played them quite a lot, including 3 times in MP. So here are my thoughts.

Cold 3, Order, Growth, yes you need all those. I usually go with just a medium dominion myself. And I take a little luck (1), because I really like their heroes, especially the Visitor. Never really found a use for him, but he looks super cool.

For my armies, I use lobos for the meatshield and starspawn artillery at the year, but I add in a 3rd layer for fighting underwater. The awesome Crab Hybrids. They are set between the artillery and the meatshields, on hold and attack, and they clean up when they get to the fighting. They are kind of expensive, and useless when you have to go onto the land (aquatic only), so recruit them wisely.

Recruit the Slave Mages everywhere for your researchers. They are cheap, research well, and have some good randoms.

And have a good strategy for getting up on land. Most of your troops are amphibious, but that doesn't mean they are any good up there. I usually find a shambler province and recruit the heck out of them, for my land based meat shield.
You don't want to be sitting in the water alone late in the game, looking up at the land based players and saying "hey guys, I want to play too".

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Well, from the manual, p 51: suggests that eatch hot or cold decreases tax by 5% and supplies by 10%.

I think there is more scatter in the data, than you can accomodate.

Income is affected by type of fortress:
Kelp Cit = admin 40, at ma, oceania
Ramparts (Atlantis EA) = 15
Fortified City (Atlantis LA) =50
Dark cit =20 Ryallah

Basic Form = Pop/100 * Scale modifiers)* 1+fort/200, presuming no unrest.
I don't know your methodologies, but
if you had all neutral scales,


Case 1
Oceania Should be 338, without a hit for cold scales. And it is.
Ryalla Should be 326.7 Close enough.
Atlantis If early age, should be 318. If MA should be 354.
Actual is 324. so either +.5% or -8%.

Case 2:
Oceania, should be 457 Actual is 447. about -2%
R'lyeh , should be 424. Actual 434
Atlantis should be 456 Actual 485. about +6%


So, I don't think you can draw any conclusions. In the first case, oceania clearly did not take a hit from -3 cold. But no one took the expected 15% hit.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

(Edit: I swear I had tested the capital income before, though I didn't record the results at the time. I just did the test, so I retract my assertion about standardized home province income. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Well if anything, yes, it seems that the math is very misleading. The only thing that can be said for it is that the more water provinces there are, the more worthwhile it is to take Cold 3 as an aquatic, but probably not Heat. I may run a few turns into a game now, and see if R'lyeh takes the same encumbrance penalties that a non-aquatic does for Cold on land.


Edit ---

The test confirms that although income effects underwater are unpredictable, all units that are not CR WILL take an Enc hit in provinces that have Cold 3. The only unit that wasn't Encumbered was my Void Lord, who is 50% CR.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

The Visitor, with something like 10 strategic movement is a thug that you can drop anywhere in a hurry. Combined with intelligence from spys, assassins and astral windows, it can be very useful.

Especially if your opponents is trying to get into the water with you and can not buy PD. Let them come in a bit, then cut off their escape with the Visitor, at the same time, hitting their main army and forcing it to retreat.

Or hitting lake provinces in the middle of your land based opponent. Throw up some PD and a temple. Perhaps a castle and a raiding force.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Does the Visitor get it's full movement across water provinces, or is it restricted to 1 province in the water, like everyone else?

And can it lead Vastnesses?

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

I am not sure, the map we used would have made it possible to do land travel, even if starting and ending in water. I got it once in SP, but don't recall.

It is supposed to be a visitor from some other plane, so it might avoid the water restriction, it would be thematic.

No progression to vastness.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

From what I know water provinces are not affected by temperature scales. Nor cold nor heat. You take cold just because it is usually more useful [water mages].

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

On the subject of cold and water --

Cold benefits underwater creatures by increasing the oxygen dissolved in it for them to breathe. Heating it up allows the oxygen to escape to the air above and then the fish suffocate, the cause of many fish kills in a hot summer.

Implementing this within the present game mechanics is tricky. Underwater creatures should definitely get the "cold blooded" tag and be injured by cold if they come ashore. But while underwater, the affect of the cold on their bodies is probably balanced by the increased O2. So no penalty or bonus for cold, but a penalty for heat underwater makes some sense.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

The Visitor is hampered by moving through water, it's annoying. And yes, it CAN lead Vastnesses, it gets ~160 Magic Leadership. This makes them the ultimate overland raiders IMO, even though to fully exploit that mobility, you're either attacking blind a lot, or you have some pretty intense scout saturation.....

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Again Jim,
Thats why for me it matters a lot more who you are playing with.

I prefer pump almost every last farthing into unarmored illithid soldiers, who mind blast. Enc doesn't matter to them.

I set up in the back - and have very minimal meat shields.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Indeed. I am pretty fond of the Meteorite Guards, because of their low gold cost. But with that heavy armor AND penalties from cold, it starts to become a logistical problem to exploit those heavy infantry.

Though if you only took Cold 2, you won't get so much an income penalty on land, and you won't get the Enc penalty on any of your troops. I need to play around more with pretender creation, see which style I am happiest with.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Remember that even if you take Cold 3, it takes a while for provinces to shift all the way and there's seasonal variation as well. You won't usually be fighting in Cold 3. And you would be some of the time even if you took Cold 2.

This is why it's usually recommended that nations with a temperature preference take one more step of that scale. Almost free points.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

I belong to the camp that doesn't believe in seasonal variation. I mean, I have seen temperature fluctuations sure, but in my experience they are far too subtle to be a factor in a strategy. It's not as if all provinces are +1 Heat in summer and +1 Cold in winter, in fact it's far from that.

For me, one of the major deciding factors is the fact that the other temperature is so extremely debilitating to you, that you want to push in your direction as hard as possible, to insure more favorable conditions. The other being that your dominion hampers most other nations more than the excess temp scale hampers you. There is nothing "free" about a -5% income in your capital from turn 1 through the entirety of the game, that's for sure. And the longer the game goes, the more of your territory will have the extra scale, and thus be generating less income. It just happens that the tradeoff is worth it, you give your neighbors a large penalty, and you suffer a smaller penalty yourself.

Re: Some hints on MA R\'yleh?
 

Resurrecting an old thread since this question hasn't been answered...

If you take a Wyrm and Cold 3, doesn't that severely reduce his effectiveness?

Re: Some hints on MA R'yleh?
 

I wouldn't say severely, maybe mildly. Except when defending territories deep enough to be steadily under your dominion for a time they won't be at cold-3 (well, at least not from your dominion). Even when fighting in cold-3, a high dominion wyrm won't have much trouble with almost any indies, and by the time you're fighting more than that it's trivial to stick a frost ring on him if you think it'll make a difference.

Re: Some hints on MA R'yleh?
 

Thanks. I guess I am unclear about the negatives of cold-blooded troops in cold climates (this rarely has come up for me, and when it has I've found other ways around it).

Re: Some hints on MA R'yleh?
 

Perhaps counterintuitively, Wyrm pretenders are not coldblooded.