Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Hi,

I played Dominions 2 quite much. Both agains AI and multiplayer. It was a great game and so is Dominions 3 probably.

But one problem was that once you got to a certain point, some superhero characters/gods with the right items could dominate the game totally. Large armies would too often become completely useless. I wouldn't mind this happening occationally. But it was very commom in Dominions 2.

Is Dominions 3 the same or has this balance been improved?

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

The balance has been improved. The life drain ability has been reduced, and is harder to get with items.

The thing that may be unbalanced in Dom3 is some nations bless strats, where a 9/9 bless with sacred units is pretty hard to beat early in game. This has been heatly discussed though, and I don't remember if a consensus was ever reached on this forum.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Certain problems occur with certain game setups (map size, winning conditions, etc) but it must be balanced since we dont get an agreement on what they are. The SC thing is a late-game problem but it does balance the Micromanagment complaint. And there is always the "too much magic, too much summons" late-game complaint. Of course all of those balance the early-game complaint that the game is too much about elite units and swarming.

Usually, choosing different game setup parameters will allow you to avoid any of those that you feel is getting to be an old complaint.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Yes the SCs when properly equipped or spell_buffed suffer other disadvantages such as being more vunerable to cold, lightning or poison. This allows human players to have more options in taking down SCs.
The AI opponents still don't build their own SCs... maybe in Dominions_8 this will be available. Perhaps by Dominions_4 the AI will know how specific items should not be equipped by specific units... such as an assassins heart on a commander/mage without stealth.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I read this and my head x-plode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

EDIT: Awesome avatar Saeter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Because it's easier to supply and make larger armies I think Dom 3 is much better balanced than Dom 2. Still some superhero characters/gods with the right items can dominate the game totally. But I think its not a problem and I have never seen an totally useless large army in Dom 3.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Thanks for the replies. I do like that SCs can sometimes be very powerful. But glad to hear that it seems more balanced now. Of course perfect balance is not possible and probably not desirable either.

Going to the store...

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

[quote]
Velusion said:
I read this and my head x-plode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Its just that if there was only one "game is way overpowered in this area" complaint then it would be important to fix it. But if there are half a dozen of them, then it seems there there is a balance of sorts.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

So the more complaints there are the less important the problem is?

You are still making my head x-plode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

No I just think that there cant really be a balance killer unless there is agreement on it. Multiple balance killers tend to cancel each other out. SuperCombatants cant be an end-game killer if too mch magic/summons is also an end-game killer since the two would seem to be tactics for use against the other. When discussions swing that direction then it tends to come out "oh I meant for small map blitz games" or some other limiting situation.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

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Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Im thinking that the built in benefit for Agartha is based on caves and darkness which doesnt seem to be incorporated into the game enough yet to provide the balance.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

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Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I've been relying on Bows of Botulf a lot more in Dom3 than in Dom2... Anyone with a smidge of death magic and the barest research in construction can shut down a lone spellcaster with little trouble. They're fun... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

MA Argatha is weak. And people who nominate EA Ermor as a weak nation have no idea what they're talking about (read: didn't use lizards + combat pretender chassis). Mid Era Mictlan is weaker than it's EA/LA variant but I don't play Mictlan enough to make any judgment on that. Death scale is silly. Nations with no old age problems can effectively get 120 free points (or possibly even 240) advantage over nations with significant problems with old age. That is balance issue.

The game is not that complicated at it's current stage.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Deathisnt a no brainer in games that will last a long time, by turn 100 or so your capitol will be down to around 5000-6000 population so no mage recruitment without alchemising gems and if you run low on gems for some reason, no army.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I agree with shovah, sure it depends on game length, game rules, etc. but i normally not go with death 3 and i choose growth 3 as often as i can, even without big old age problems.
In longer games there is a real difference between a 40.000 populated home province (and all other provinces in same way) or just 20.000 on turn 50.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

More often than not, by turn 100, you're swimming in pools of gold already. Furthermore by then, it is gems that determine the game not gold. If you're not, then chances are you're already behind in your empire growth compared to others (most likely because you missed out on the extra points) Also your cap does not go down to 5-6K in 100 turns even with death 3. Not to mention, I've patrolled my cap down to 5-6K with full death scales and won games easily because of the jump in early-mid game it provided me. Granted those games were duels, I still find death scales preferable simply because those points need to come from somewhere to pay for my other goodies. To say Growth gives you benefits over death isn't a good argument since that's an obvious statement. However Growth 3 over death 3 is taking out 240 points that you're not spending in OTHER areas. Your turn 50 isn't going to matter when you're in a MP game and you're wedged into a small corner because your build doesn't factor in an early game.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Gems are very important in late game. Nevertheless normally you can't 'swim enough' in gold. A nation with very good non-capital mages and lots of castles build 20-30 national mages a turn in late game.

Growth is clearly an middle/late game invest but there also possibilies to improve your early game too.

However what i mean to say is that death 3 is good but its not a no-brainer.
The nearly no-brainer for me is sloth 3
I would always go for sloth 3 before death 3 with most of the nations (even the resource haevy nations, just build a good combat pretender here).

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

It also depends on if you are combining those scales with a dominion push, or if you are allowing it to affect only the capital area while trying to mostly operate outside of your dominion.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I don't mind sloth 3 as much as death 3. Any nation can get away with sloth 3 as you said. This for me is "balanced" since basically all players start with the same situation. Death 3 I mind because it hampers old age nations way more than non old age nations. I guess a better way to put this would be, I dislike the scale because some nations don't have the "choice" to take it while others do. This to me is the imbalance.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

That's a frankly ridiculous notion. If every nation was supposed to be able to use the exact same things, then they might as well have the same units too.

A nation that can't tale Death 3 can take some other negative scale at 3 and it will hamper them less. Anyone who takes death scales deserves everything evil and bad that comes from it. I only play large maps and long games anyway, and death 3 in those tends to be just a protracted suicide.

There is also the matter that some nations just suit some people's play style far better than others. I get fairly good results with Ulm, Abysia and a couple of others and I absolutely, positively suck when playing some others because they don't fit me or I don't fit them.

Edi

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I'll have to disagree with you then. Though if I recall you're the one who plays the crazy Faerun sized games? In which case, I suppose then I'll go growth over death. But those super huge games rarely finds players that can hold that attention span from my experience. In more modestly sized games decided around turn 80-100, I just don't find the death scale holding me back that much. (unless I have old age mages of course)

Also I'm not sure I get the point of your first statement. How does "all nations should be able to get away with same scales" factor into "all nations might as well have same units"?

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I don't mind having some handicaps for different nations scale-wise, for me it doesn't matter that much. Preferences vary, I suppose. I'd be unlikely to take death even in small games, I dislike it that much.

I suppose the same units things could be construed as a slippery slope, but it's what comes to my mind first when I hear people going "I can do A with nation 1, therefore I should also be able to do A with nations 2...13547 as well."

Edi

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I agree with Edi on this one, if all nations were able to take the same scales, then if there was one best scale strategy for one nation, it would be the best scale strategy for all nations; i.e. no variation. Which would take a lot of the fun out of the game.

It's not as bad as them all having the same units, but it's still about how much variation in play you get from playing different nations.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Its just the fact that many nations without old mages can basically get free points, this can be made worse by nations with a huge scale preference(ie EA abysia without building anathemant dragons or warlocks,you can take heat3 death3 for ALOT of free points without too much damage)

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

That would be hard to balance so that everyone can make sense with all scale choices.
I think that every scale has nations that make it logical, or at least a tactic to keep in mind, for any extreme high and low of a scale. Death/growth has already been discussed and heat/cold are obvious. Pangaea can do interesting things with sloth 3, chaos 3. Tien Chi can do things with unluck 3. Ulm with non-magic 3.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I liked how there were certain scales requirements for certain national themes in Dom2. When all those different themes were turned into nations in Dom3, the scales requirements vanished, which takes quite a bit of flavor out of the thematic aspect.

Edi

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

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Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I don't see where anyone mentioned "very short games". Perhaps you're gasping because you're making an exaggerated point in attempt to refute something. Especially because if all you do is /wait/ when someone has death scales than I really hope you don't let them get a jump start with their extra points and take the extra provinces to fuel their extra gem income AND regular income just because of the extra provinces. I don't think I've EVER heard of anyone's argument going, "HMM... he has DEATH SCALES, maybe I'll just wait him out!" To attempt to use that "strategy" against someone isn't to say they're clever, it's to say they're idiots.

I mean you have to really ask yourself this, are you arguing against balance or are you arguing against change? Because let's face it, currently the scales in base are just not balanced, neither are some pretender choices. How often do you start a pretender and the first thing you do is take Order 3?

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I cagree with this, I was a bit disappointed at the disappearance of themes and certain "forced scales" situations. Though I'll be honest, I'm not too entirely fond of the imbalance of order vs. turmoil in base game.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Well actually waiting someone out who has terrible scales because of a triple/double bless seems a perfectly good mid to late game tactic.

I have seen lots of nations who have such a strategy in MP, roll over 2-3 opponents early on (upto turn 30) and then wilt later on, to be easily defeated.

For example, can a triple blessed MA Mictian player with 3 lvl 9 blesses, F/S/W, scales of turmoil-3, sloth-3, death-3, luck-3, drain-3 win a MP over 70 - 100+ turns? Or as the player defeated himself even before he starts playing in that game?

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

That's if they have TERRIBLE scales. Yes, then the situation is different. However, you should note I did not at any point mention turmoil3, drain3.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

You can take death-3 scale and then magic paths which give spells which will let you wipe out the happy life-scale enemies' capital population yourself... if you want. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif Just one alternative to the "must take life scale because you will have such great capital population" idea.

PvK

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Waiting out a death scale can be done but like most tactics in Dominions it doesnt work for everyone. It would only be really feasable I think for Marignon or Jotunheim.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Reading these posts have brought the demon in me. I mean really. What an stupid argument. Those scales are important to your game and how you play it, but also affects your opponents. For example I just played my first blitz against ME C'tis with Pangaea so naturally his order scale hurt my Pans ability to summon (almost) naked females. Of course death-3 is good in a short game, but if I'm against a death-3 nation I will want to prolong the game. So I guess that makes me an idiot. Now I'm really sad that I have been provocated to this kind of stupid discussion. Reminds me of this:
1.- My lab burnt down on turn 2. Byaah this game sucks. I quit.
2.- What scales did you take?
1.- I always take misfortune-3 for points.
2.- Could you maybe try taking fortune-3
1.- Whats the point fool! Its just a matter of luck!!

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

You're missing the point if you think you're prolonging the game only because of death 3's impact.

Consider this a) If your opponent take's death 3, and you don't, he has two options in his disposal. 1) Not dominion push and take advantage of your lack of death scales by using your provinces as a what qm refers to a "retirement home" for his old mages.
2) Dominion push and make YOU lose population too. (Keep in mind he has a 120 point advantage over you. 240 if it's death 3 vs growth 3)

b) You should always be jockeying for advantage in gems at that point of the game, not income. With a usual jump start in provinces from extra points, it is actually YOUR job to bring the fight to them more often than not. Not the other way around.

c) Your anecdote is really amusing though. =)

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Again I feel like saying, it depends on the game.
Rushing a death-3 nation would seem logical, even nearly mandatory, in small-map player-vs-player games of under 10 players.

But on a victory Point game, or large map where that scale might have already cleared a large area, or many player games, not to mention the many shifts that can be done on things like magic or gold.. it would not be a good idea to expend alot of army trying to take out the death nation too soon.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Not "rushing" Gandalf, but definitely not the type you can simply sit idle against either. Personally I don't think rushing works well in ANY multiplayer MP scenario save for blitzes. And only few players can pull those off (qm, Turin, Jurri) so I wouldn't advise it for that.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Imbalance? I guess it depends on your faction. You could also complain that certain nations recieve no benefit from taking Growth 3 or Order 3. Every nation has it's own sweet spot in terms of domain benefits or tolerances.
As for Death being a no brainer, it most definitely depends on the faction your playing and how you use it. There is a disadvantage, in that a nations hero's and troops will be artificially limited in terms of experience advancement. It's arguable that the ability to have effectively immortal mages and commanders, boosted by a HoF bonus, is quite an advantage to not taking Death.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I favor a slow "build and strangle" conservative style of play, and it really hurts me to take death scales, but the more i play the more i lean towards KissBlade's PoV. I know it does not make mathematical sence, but i have been able to see the benefits of growth in games far more clearly than the cost of death. Often i have experienced a pleasant long term trend in my own economy from growth, but not once have i seen an enemy nation decline noticably from their death scale.

Another obvious thing i have recently learned- although growth provides a very noticable protection from the ravages of age, it only helps when you are in your own dominion. In one game i'm playing i was quite disturbed to find nearly half my Marignon mages got hearts one turn while they were out besieging an enemy castle and late winter rolled around.

I can't quite go all the way and say death-3 is a "no-brainer", but experience has pushed me toward accepting death scales against my natural inclination.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

I am playing MA Ermor with death-3, my capitals population is around 23,000 at around turn 30'ish.

Playing Caelum with growth-3 my capitals population is 35,000 at around turn 30'ish.

So the difference is noticable. Also, playing MA Ermor I have noticed a slow but sure tightening of my income, ie...I am having less to spend. This makes me for more aggressive, as I need new lands to make up for my declining old ones.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

My math says 22k for death3, starting at 30... minor point. So, it's not useless. Good. But those 240 points can almost give a wyrm Death4 and Nature4, for example. Or luck3 for extra gems with points left over.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

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Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

The one thing about MA Agartha is that it's a recruitable land-based amphibious nation with human and amphib troops. Not much, admittedly.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

But(apart from EA which lacks humans, but can get indies anyway) the other agarthan ages are too, +they have other things to make them superior.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

National statue summoning spells that make sturdy meatshields. Golem cult dominion that gives +100% bonus hp to statues in dom10, makes them sturdier. Summons from Enliven Statues are affected, dunno about the constuction summons.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Seeing as how everyone keeps crying about how overpowered MA Agartha is, i figured that was the obvious next choice for me ;-)

I decided to just take great scales, and rely on indie troops to tide me through until i figure out what I want to do mid/late game. If nothing else I'll die a happy capitalist with lots of cash...

For the first game i just took the cheapest pretender I could (imprisoned waterfountain with dom5 and astral4 i think... hes not woke up yet...) Once I figure out what Items/spells I really miss, I'll try again with a pretender who can fill those needs without blowing my scales.

Biggest thing I miss so far is DD for skull mentors. I'm addicted to those things, and a 2.5% chance to get DD on a 400 gold elderly capitol only unit isn't quite going to cut it, I fear.

Its a completely different nation strategicly from EA, where the NNE/sacred Ancients realllly reward terrible scales (for bless and to starve incoming armies)

If nothing else, it's a good excuse to learn how to use indies to reasonable effect, as I tend to be attracted to nations that don't play nice with normal humans.

Re: Superheroes dominating Dominions 3 ?
 

Dont be afraid of their old age for other usage though (blade wind). In my death1 dominion solo game, golem crafters (maxage 48, no death magic) gets age afflictions as often as expected, but Oracle of the ancients(maxage 400, death magic 1) very rarely.

Maxage, death magic, growth scale are the only things that directly affect the age affliction formula iirc. (fire/nature magic has an indirect effect by changing maxage).

Independend bows and big shield wearing Agarthan infantry is nice against AI armies.