Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I upgraded my home computer to Vista a couple of days ago. So far, every program I had installed has worked flawlessly, with the exception of Dom III. It is so painfully slow, both full screen and windowed, that I am probably going to have to drop out of the PBeM game I'm in unless there's a fix for this.

Anyone have any hints for getting Dom III to run acceptably under Vista, or do I just need to hope a patch fixes it eventually?

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Hope for patches is my expectation, or run a dual boot with Linux.

It amazes me how quickly people are jumping to a thoroughly untested new version of Windows that is having some pretty bad teething problems even after such a long time in development. I work in tech support and I wouldn't touch Vista with a 10-foot pole for precisely this kind of reasons. I'll stick to XP and let others be the guinea pigs so that when I'm forced to upgrade, there will be nice shiny service packs to fix the worst stuff.

Edi

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Well, having written some of that "thoroughly untested" code myself, I feel rather obligated to use it. And even if I didn't feel obligated, I would anyway, because I'm proud of it.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I usually give microsoft a few years to iron out the wrinkles before I try their new software.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

As I understand it, Vista has many improved "hooks" for programmers to use in integrating to the OS. But, until there are lots of cool new tools (which might very likely NOT work for previous windows) then Vista might be lots of cool features that no one is ready to use yet.

But truthfully I havent bothered reading enough on Vista yet to decide what underdog position I will take in the discussions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I suppose you didn't write the OpenGL libraries/drivers... They appear to be less and less well supported on Windows.
It's maybe not MS fault, card drivers may be the main culprit.

Anyway for example I had the *exact same* framerate with Dom2 on an old Athlon500/GEforce4 than when I upgraded to Ahtlon2400/Radeon9600. Still no better perf when I changed the card for a Nvidia 5600GT...

So I don't wonder that there's problems with Vista now...

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Is Dom 3 even supported on Vista?

The reasonable position should be to support it of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

My experience with windows has been the same: stay behind one version and you can be somewhat sure that it's fine. Don't use the versions that don't undergo a major overhaul. That means, for me, I used: Win95 (but only as long as I had to), Win98, Win2k, WinXP. I won't touch Vista until they release their first service pack and I'll still have to determine if I'd want to use it at all.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Upgrade to Win2K Pro. Vista is evil.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I would say that Dominions is not supported on Vista in any official sense. Vista wasnt around to even try.
But I guess its as supported as any other Windows is supported in Dominions. It was programmed on Linux and most of the Windows and Mac verifying was done by the beta testers. Feel free to post test info for Vista as you find it.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Run a Microsoft OS before SP1??

I wouldn't drive without a seatbelt, either.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

lol, I just upgraded to XP within the last year, and I will fight tooth and nail to keep Vista out of the courthouse where I work for at least the next year, and hopefully two if possible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Why would anyone downgrade to Vista?
I'm running Win2kPro at home and XPPro on my laptop and at work. I still prefer 2k. All the machines that we downgraded to Vista for testing purposes had to be reinstalled with XP because our software doesn't work properly.

My advice: Reinstall an older version of Windows, dual boot, if you don't want to loose Vista completely (in case of SPs in a couple of years).

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

this has not to be a entirely problem of microsoft, ATI tents to write bad OGL drivers, for an example, i'm now having better framerates with a Geforce 3 (on Linux) than i had with a Radeon 9600 XT (on Windows). And this is not just cause linux is better *scnr*

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Strange, it works perfectly on my vista development machine. I know some issues can be resolved if you disable aero.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

There was a previous post on Vista issues. ATI OpenGL drivers have improved the experience no end so upgrade your drivers if you are using ATI graphics. I was under the impression that Nvidia had no problems in this area having included OpenGL support in their beta driver releases.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

It has nothing to do with dom3 or drivers. A few months ago it was much talked about how Microsoft is not directly supporting OpenGL in Vista but instead passing it through Microsoft's own DirectX-interfaces. I don't understand the details, however, it means adding an extra layer of abstraction, so everything which uses OpenGL (that is pretty much every game which doesn't run exclusively on Windows) obviosly runs slower.

If this is true, it means that better drivers won't cut it but OpenGL will be always worse than DirectX - not because of some technical reason, but because Microsoft wants it this way.

Microsoft's motivation for doing this is to force game developers to use DirectX instead of OpenGL and thus killing any platform-independent development. They know from experience that the third-party developers and not Microsoft will be blamed.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Oh, really?
Even DirectX will lose some performance due to Vista taking more CPU time just to run in the background.

It is up to the hardware drivers to implement the OpenGL specs and the driver support for Vista is still abysmal. That is the true reason why you lose some performance compared to DirectX.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Vista is overall a bad idea for any current and/or old games... people should check the benchmark differences verses WinXP and Win2K before upgrading.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

This is mildly off topic, but can anyone tell me why I (basic internet, a few games, basic Excel and Word user) would have any desire to shift to Vista?

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I have work experience with Vista and my recommendation is to wait at least two to three years before upgrading to it. I know I won't be touching it until 2k9 which is when MS will stop support for win-XP. Maybe its just me, but I'd rather err on the side of safety, especially as I consider w2k to be the best MS OS to date.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

None, the only advantage is DirectX 10 (no games will be using it exclusively for a few years) and some better security, but you will have to put up with some very frequent and annoying security popups.

The downside is a lot of untested new code and much higher computer demands (unless you disable aero and things like it).

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I am running Vista and it works wonderfully now. I had a problem with dominions 3, but it was my ATI video card (it did not support OpenGL and was clocking 1 frame per second). I downloaded the latest driver and it works very well now.

If you are running an ATI card make sure you have the latest drivers.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I'll give that a try tonight.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I just moved to Vista and dominions 3 seems to work fine.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

I got a new computer recently, that came with Vista and I had no problems with it. Vista has a completely different look and feel to if from previous version of windows, so it takes some getting use to. But once you get used to it, I think it is a better O.S. (user interface wise.)

My main annoyance hasn't been speed. Vista tends to save files in its own location. So instead of finding your saved game files in c:\program files\dominions3\savedgame, vista saves it in your profile section in a real wierd path, {profile name}/AppData/Local/VirtualStore/Program Files/Dominions 3/Savedgames. This made playing PBEM games annoying until I got used to it.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

That happens since you have installed the game under "program files". Since so many software kept trying to write to a folder that they should not have write access to Microsoft made it so anything being written to "program files" ends up in %profile name%/AppData/Local/VirtualStore/Program Files/[normal folder path].

This way they did not break all the old "malfunctioning" applications but you can still benefit from the increased security you get as running as a restricted user.

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Basically I think there is no reason for you to switch.

But that doesnt make Vista a bad idea. Vista is apparently an effort by Microsoft to move forward. It abandons much of its support for older windows versions, and adds many excellent programming hooks.

Eventually when programmers make use of the hooks it will create better programs and games to run on Vista. But for now it kindof sucks. It doesnt support whats available to us now. Every company needs to get new drivers out for video cards, sound cards, scanners, cameras, etc etc. And anything written for previous windows is apparently going to, at MOST, achieve the same performance but probably not better.

So until every driver and program gets a Vista version.. no I dont see alot of reason for anyone who isnt a guru to want to jump on Vista. IMHO
Gandalf Parker

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Ah! Thats what the term 'compatibility files' meant. Is there a place Vista recommends to save games like this other then program files then?

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

Yeah, I've discovered that. Sometimes I notice mp games have returned 1 turn back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif . And the AppData/Local/VirtualStore/Program Files/Dominions 3/Savedgames only contains a dom3config file and nothing else, seems like .trn files are restored to a previous state.

Why did MS change good old program files, there was absolutely no reason for that ? But I don't think it's a folder problem, I copied the .trn by hand in the directory, and they were replaced by an older version. Maybe is it a service restoring "illegaly" changed files in the program folder ?

Don't know. But as Dom3 doesn't need to be in the program files, I'll move it elsewhere to see if it solves the problem.

It's in such cases that I'm happy to keep my mp mails. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Unplayably slow on Vista?
 

They changed it because windows shifted to a more network structure (multi users with an admin) but no one properly used it. They loaded everything as admin or for all users. That made Windows vulnerable and made it look bad. The changes are a "user friendly" way to try and nudge people to doing their machine "the proper way".

Of course, beyond user friendly becomes user obnoxious. Instead of a recommendation you get "BACK OFF! You dont have a clue so just let me do it!"

Gandalf Parker
--
Fight the defaults, escape the menu, probe the possibilities, hack the system!
Get it to work the way that YOU want it to work.
(its not just for computers, its a life message)

Runs great on Vista!
 

If someone is interested this game runs great on Windows Vista Ultimate. Not only that but when I upgraded to Vista I formated only my main HDD, and Dominions3 was installed on a second one. I tough that I will install D3 over the old one and this will keep my games, maps, etc. But the result was even better, when I run the exe it worked without install!