Province Defence?
 

Why can't I decrease province defence once set? On a large map you should be able to decrease the defence level for rear areas.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Because you already raised them in the province as defense and don't have to pay them anymore after that? Don't expect that they'll give you back their payment when you think that you no longer need them. Also, they want to keep their jobs. They have a wife and kids to feed, you know? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Province Defence?
 

I want to know as a newbie whether investment on pd is worthwhile in SP with impossible AI. The ai do like to throw loads of eagles and madmen to you. But at the same time, they build huge armies. So cash is always short. Shall I build more troops or spend a few bucks on PD. And how much PD is sufficient for beating madmen and eagles.

Re: Province Defence?
 

There is no one answer to that - it's up to you to figure the right balance for each situation. Sometimes you can invest in PD and it just gets wiped out; other times (especially if you combine it with a force of troops set up to help it out) it can turn the tide of several battles, causing many enemy losses and sparing your own forces.

Adding to the impossiblility of deciding is the random luck-and-order-scale-influenced chance that the local leader will randomly organize additional PD on top of what you invested in, and since it is an increasing scale, PD 25 +10 is worth far more than PD zero +10.

If there were a simple or an always-right answer, it wouldn't be interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PvK

Re: Province Defence?
 

One simple answer is. At least in my opinion. Always buy at least 1 point of PD, because that way you exactly how many troops attack your province. And to answer the original post: Taking back your PD would really unbalance the game. This way its much more complicated than just using all your excess money on PD and then taking it back turn later. You have to think about how many times a province will be attacked, how many troops there will likely be, are your PD forces good against certain troops and so on. Endless amount of possibilities is one reason we love this game so much.

Re: Province Defence?
 

I tend to have 3 numbers for PD. Newly taken province (some like to put 1, I like to put 6 which can shake off many spell-sent attack groups). Special province such as a site which makes me build a lab so I can recruit sages or mages (I like to put 11 which I think gives an extra commander?). Then there is someplace I built a castle and I like to put 21.

Some special times when I might consider putting a large chunk of one turns gold into massive PD for a province:

a chokepoint that you know the enemy will have to come thru

needing to slow down an incoming army so yours can get there before you lose too much territory

having just taken a province far inside enemy territory and you want to be sure that foothold stays yours long enough to get some local units and hire some mercenarys there

you took a province on the backside of an enemys territory and you want to hold it long enough to get him to move his armies that direction away from your main army approaching his front side

you just took the territory right next door to his castle and you want to gaurantee that you will have a territory for your units to retreat to in the take-lose-take-lose battles trying to hang onto his castle

Re: Province Defence?
 

PD is, as far as I am concerned, the most powerful tool you can have against the AI. And yes, it works against impossible AI just fine.

You see the AI isn't too bright at waiting to build up forces before it attacks. So if you build up PD in the border provinces (along with your offensive army) a lot of the time the AI will just throw handfuls of troops at them, which is a total waste because PD doesn't take losses unless it loses entirely. I have defeated much much more powerful AI empires by maintaining a border, pumping up PD and moving forward one province at a time then pumping PD into that too. If you lose a province it's never a big problem because then the AI runs straight into the PD you built before. I made a thread about this lemming problem the AI has before.

But doesn't this take a lot of gold? Well no, not really, not with order 3 it doesn't. I regularly drop 30 points into PD - sometimes 40 if it's an obvious checkpoint and I don't want to move forward. Of course the PD for some nations is cack and really isn't worth using but these cases aren't that common.

As for MP - well there you have to put much more thought into it.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Isn't it 20 (21?) that gives the second commander?
In SP I like to use lots of PD because it's less hassle - no micro with province defence. PD of 20-30 helps discourage AI attacks on border provinces, and PD of 50+ backed up by an army allows bottlenecks to be defended against large armies with few casualties

Re: Province Defence?
 

PD works wonders against the AI.

I generally put 20 everywhere to keep from losing provinces to spells and almost all random events.

Beyond that, chokepoints are a wonderful place to use it. I've put 125 in a choke point and quite a few troops besides--and an incredible number of AI troops died against that barrier. I was killing over 100 units a turn there for years.

Re: Province Defence?
 

I think the 20-something number was for catching sneaking units like scouts, spies and assassins

Re: Province Defence?
 

PD of 10 or more helps catching stealthy units and armies (pg 67 of the manual). At PD, the nation gets another type of commander and starts getting defenders of another type (pg 97).

Re: Province Defence?
 

So you only pay for PD once?

There are no recurring costs? Does the cost of high PD reduce the tax income from the province?

Re: Province Defence?
 

Yes, yes, no.

And province defense will always get back to full strength at the end of turn unless an enemy has conquered the province.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Once it's paid for, there's absolutely no disadvantage from high PD... unless you want to give the province away or something.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Well, in theory an event could raise PD over the maximum, making it roll over and giving you a useless PD of -120 or so. It's probably been fixed, though.

Any way, PD is feasible even up to 40 or 60 range, but rarely all the way up to 100 or 125.

Re: Province Defence?
 

There have been times I wanted to lower it but only to give it away (as was said), or to allow an ally to travel thru my castled province without losing the province.

Or if I had a lab there and was dong the thing about having a mage doing the Wind Ride thing to snatch other nations commanders to me so that the other mages there could convert him. Having PD gets in the way of that trick since the PD can kill the guy before my mages get off more than one try

Re: Province Defence?
 

It also depends on what nation you are playing, the quality varies alot. Some nations, like Machaka for instance, have PD that's so weak it's not worth buying past one.

Re: Province Defence?
 

I always have a dilemma when it comes to buy some more PD or use the gold to buy some troops for my armies, especially for some nations that require lot of gold to maintain their troops or dominons scales that make money less easy to collect.

The value to give a PD can be a difficult choice for me, as i don't know what can be considered as "safe" enough while staying cheap enough to not prevent me to raise my armies, as it seems it can vary a lot with how good the enemy AI is going.

I remember on a game located on my favorite map "Silent Seas wraparound" , in which LA Ermor walked over one of my Rlyeh province despite i thought it would be safe with a PD of 40 (and it costed me a lot as my economy was very crippled). But the Ashen Empire walked over every provinces and all the 4 nations in that specific game anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Province Defence?
 

Map sizes also make a difference. On a small map I would less likely to invest in PD because I can create a move an army anyplace fairly quickly. But on a larger map I would want provinces to defend themselves abit more.

Re: Province Defence?
 

It also might be helpful to not think of PD as merely a 'stand alone' defense - it can be very useful in assisting and adding bulk to to any regular units in the province. A PD of 10 can get you anywhere from 20-40 or so units, and are useful even if only for getting tangled up in the feet of your enemies, as long as you've got some 'real' troops there to take advantage. Just make sure you place your regular troops properly (being aware that the PD will appear in one big 'blob' in the center of the map).

Re: Province Defence?
 

Good point. Its also a good idea to keep in mind what type of PD you are likely to get and compare it with the recruitable units in that province. Sometimes you can HUGELY boost the defences of a province by doing PD and then adding some of the locally recruitable archers, or knights, or sometimes even just an extra commander or two.

Re: Province Defence?
 

You always know where the PD starts from, so placing a mage or 2 in the centre to cast buffing spells is probably the best and cheapest way of having a very good defence.

Have the mages cast the spells then retreat, just in case your PD loses.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Oh yes, PD is wonderful in SP. When facing enemy gods or anything I need to tire out, I like to send in a good stack of PD before my real troops. Sure, the PD gets killed, but the fatigue starts to build and some of the chaff gets cleaned out. Then your real troops, who you expect to do the killing, arrive and have a good start.

Another point about PD is that Mechanical Militia and Fata Morgana give you decent additional PD, but they only turn on when you have one or more points of PD. Those are very powerful defensive spells and, when combined with 11 or more points of PD, they really make a mess of AI. Once I have one of those, I stop worrying about defense and go entirely offensive. In multiplayer, they may not be the best use of gems, but they do make you a lot harder to take out.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Also, one other point about PD that makes a big difference in some situations is that they don't demand any upkeep. If you're playing a nation with very low gold income (maybe a heavy blood nation, or LA Ermor) minimizing upkeep is vital. If you "real" troops are summons with no upkeep it can be a good idea to supplement them with PD rather than with recruited troops if you're not actively invading someone else.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Looks like there is a PD hard cap at 125. I was unable to build more than that in a recent SP game I had "won" and was goofing around in. (default map settings, ME C'tis)

I don't know how "useful" that info will be in any situation anyone cares about... but it is kinda nice to know that you cant make yourself completely invulnerable to the ai (just mostly) using PD.

Re: Province Defence?
 

I think that info is in the game manual, too. Atleast I remember reading about it.

Re: Province Defence?
 

hehe, then my tidbit is redundant on top of being useless http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

oh well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Province Defence?
 

What would you folks suggest for an alternative to province defense for those nations where PD is useless, such as any of the ape kingdoms?

Re: Province Defence?
 

well if we are theory crafting here i would say minimal PD(either 1 to act as a tripwire or 10 to catch sneaking enemies) and back up quick reaction forces deployed to cover as many provinces as possible.
Now whether that is worth diverting sorely needed troops from the front lines to cover your rear areas is another matter all together

Re: Province Defence?
 

I dont think any PD is "useless". If for no pther reason than to take the hits while other units do the work. A nation with PD of shooters isnt going to well by iteself, and a nation with PD of infantry isnt either. But for the bow-nation Id buy a commander and some infantry then set them forward so the PD shooters dont get wiped out so quick, and maybe position them to the sides since the PD shooters are going to appear in the middle. Then for a nation of PD infantry Id get a commander and shooters so I can set the shooters to the flanks, and set them back abit so they dont appear on the battlefield too far forward drawing the attacks. And many can benefit from some decent flankers such as knights set for hold-and-attack rearmost.

Try making use of your PD and boosting its weak points rather than ignore it because it does so badly by itself.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Yes Gandalf is spot on here. Putting a mage or two to back up your PD can make your PD awesome, especially if you cast spells then retreat at the end. It can make for a effective fighting withdrawl strategy, wearing down a invading army until your main field army arrives.

Another trick I like to do is, a main research centre for your mages, is not to build a castle. Just rely on PD 30+, plus the combined magical power of your researching mages to defend the province. With a castle the mages would after change from research to patrol. You effectively save on the cost of a castle and wasted research time.

Re: Province Defence?
 

Hmmm I hadnt considered the retreat thing. That can make a PD support group VERY multipurpose. Set to the right position and with the right orders, and then retreat. Even if the province goes down, they will move back and support the PD of he next one, then the next, and the next.
Definetly one for the tactic journal.

Gandalf Parker