obat 34 Italy
 

Some corrections for oob 34 italy:
unit 015 and 016 M47 Patton: available till mid 1989 (average date);
unit 027 B-1 Centauro "vanilla" entered service in 1991, late in the year. 100 produced before new uparmored version was developed (further 300 delivered till 1996). These first 100 vehicles were put out of service in 2004.
unit 025 C-1 Ariete in service from March 1998. End deliveries of 200 vehicles in July 2001.
Up-powered Ariete is still a dream as for today http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif;
EF-2000 in Air-to-Surface role is still a wish, and so will be for some years (for every Nation tha have it).

The game depicts two types of mechanized infantry: Bersaglieri and mechanized on wheeled APC. This was not the case: all mechanized infantry was organized as the Bersaglieri, with the latter being somewhat elite (more or less, maybe less, as Guards and Gurkhas in respect to basic infantry in the British Army); so all on VCC-1/2 or M113. No wheeled mech infantry ever existed: only cavalry recon groups experimented the vehicles for some time in early '80s. FIAT 6614/6616 were mainly used by Carabinieri and Police forces.
Sources are from some italian sites and forums, and publications I have, but something can be found in english language I think.
I hope this can help.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I'll put it on the list

Thanks

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Some further corrections:
unit 077 Pzh2000 available from 1/2008, 70 units to be deliverd within 2009;
unit 019 M60A1(ERA) 10 vehicles leased from USMC and used only in Somalia in 1993/94, I suggest deletion from oob and in case of some Somalia scenario design to put them as "allied" units;
unit 021 Leopard 1A2 in service till 4/2003 in decreasing numbers from early 90s;
units 145/145/151 MLRS available from 1/88, 22 launchers;
unit 163 320mmm (naval) support available till 12/55 in 2 batteries of ten-per-BB;
I add quantities in case you need them for cost calculation.
Some work could be done on other naval calibers, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

While your digging into Italy see what you can find out about the type of "Hovercraft" that's being used by the Italian Armed Forces

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Do we have a hovercraft? [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]
Ok, I'll look for it

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Well.... the OOB says there is but I'm not sure who put it there and since it's only named " Hovercraft" I'm a bit suspicious.

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

The Italian Navy website (www.marina.difesa.it) doesn't say a word about it. Not even among future constructions. They sure would if we had some.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I tend to agree with you but I'm somewhat reluctant to remove it based on not being able to find info. IDK when it was added or why. If anyone else can shed some light on this I would appreciate it

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

You could send it in the future, say from 2009 on. One never knows, just as for the Ariete C3/C4.
After all italian amphibious capability has increased somewhat in the last years and the trend may go on (fat chance... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif).

Also, units 146 and 149 FIROS 30: it never entered in service. It was deleted at the end of the Cold War.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

You are going to have to clarify this remark. Those units go Out Of Service in 1990. Are you suggesting it never existed at all ???

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

There are few informations about this system on the net:
http://www.forecastinternational.com.../or/vo0080.htm
and a discussion on an italian forum
http://pub10.bravenet.com/forum/795583276/show/920704
The first states that 10 FIROS have been supplied to Italian Army from 1984 on, and further 20 FIROS 25.
I tend to not believe this, since no evidence can be found about the former in service, while about the latter the FIROS 30 (not 25) was tested by Italian Army, it seems between 1989 and 1990. It was initially planned to equip three groups with it, then two and shortly after it was abandoned. Number of testing systems are either 2 supplied by the manifacturing company, and 20 (!!) which should be the said two plus a Group of 18. But I never found no evidence of such Group when I was compiling the Italian OoB 1989, though the system was showed to the public on the Republic Day parade in 1989 or 1990. My suspect is that it is company propaganda to "push" the system on the market, and that the news still survives here and there.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

You may find this doc of interest regarding cluster ammo in European armies. Sorry it's in French...

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I correct myself:
the PzH 2000 deliveries will start in April 2007, and will be completed in 2008!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

What I have been able to find ( and I'm still looking when I'm not looking for other things ) is it seems this system was evaluated in the early 80's ( maybe 1980 but it seems no earlier than that ) and 1 group of 22 was formed but once the cold war ended the cost of these things could not be justified so the project was abandoned. That's as far as I've traced. What does seem clear is there were SOME floating around italy during the 80's and had some conflict erupted during that time it seems likely they would have been used

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Ok, after all playing the italians is already frustrating enough. Let's keep something to fight with.
I'll keep searching.
Errr... any interest for the T-55 thread?

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Not really. I've got more than enough to deal with ATM

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

About A-129 Mangusta.
units 503-504-505-907-908-909 Basic version entered service 10/90 (total 45).
Typical weapon configuration was the Attack Helo (unit 504) with 2 missile pods with 8 BGM-71D/E TOW 2 (weapon 175-176)or 6 AGM-114A Hellfire (weapon 178) plus 2 81mm Medusa rocket pods (weapon 185).
12.7mm gun pods for units 503-505 were available since 1/97, though I couldn't find a picture of such configurations, particularly with Stingers. Mistral missile was also implemented, but maybe this is just a duplication for the game.
I found no source about 51mm and 122mm rockets (units 907-908), but 70mm rockets instead yes (couldn't find in inventory).

A-129 EA-1 (units 506-507-508): don't know if this refers to the planned scout version, but this one was deleted from production in the 90s.
Same applies for A-129 EOA-3 unit 484.

New version is A-129 CBT, units 509-510, which entered service in 10/02 with 15 new helos and the older ones upgraded. This is the first version to mount fixed 12.7mm Gatling gun under chin, TOW 2B or Hellfire ATGM and 70 or 81mm rocket pods.

In the end:
units 503-505 unchanged, available 1/97-10/102;
unit 504 W1 8 TOW 2/2A or 6 Hellfire; W2 and W3 2x81mm Medusa, available 10/90-10/102; alternatively 4 Tow or 3 Hellfire in slots W1 and W2 and Medusa in slots W3 and W4;
unit 509 W1 12.7mm (weapon 180); W2 8 TOW 2B or 6 Hellfire; W3 and W4 2x81mm Medusa, available 10/102-12/120;
unit 510 W1 12.7mm (weapon 180); W2 4 TOW 2B or 3 Hellfire; W3 2x81mm Medusa; W4 4 FIM9 2A Stinger, available 10/102-12/120;
old and new version actually cohexisted for some time, but hard to determine how long.
units 484-506-507-508-907-908-909 to be deleted.
Sources: italian defence magazine and Googling "A-129 Mangusta".

Edit: forgotten 12.7mm gatling in slot Weapon 1 in units 509-510.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Weapon 165: C90-CR-RB(M3). I can't find a single source saying that Italian Army has this AT rocket (spanish, right?), neither on the army website nor google. Don, any idea where does this come from?
thanks

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I have no idea. As far as I can tell that weapon has been in that OOB for years and it's used by 9 units. The guy who originaly drew that OOB up was in the Italian Airforce so if you think it needs to be removed you better be very sure of your info

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I turned the question to an italian forum, but you can check the internet as much as me. I'll let you know what.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Done some further research. Only the San Marco marine infantry have the C90etc, though couldn't find since when. They use it as light support weapon, together with the Panzerfaust 3.
It seems C90 was also evaluated for some time by Col Moschin Commando Battalion and Comsubin. Col Moschin then turned it off for the more powerful Panzerfaust 3 which is the standard AT infantry weapon today.

Also 500 french APILAS were bought for evaluation before PzF 3 adoption, and used to exhaustion by Folgore and some motorized infantry. I don't think this is worth to be entered in the oob, but just in case.
***
VBC wheeled infantry vehicle (units 041-078-089-200) is going to enter service in the next months. I'm still trying to find in which versions. Stay tuned.

Everything ok with the Mangusta? (above post)
regards

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I've seen only later that the 3.5 patch has already been released (great! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif for you all involved), so I guess it's a bit too late. No problem, let's play with it now!

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

*patting my head* I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote this. The A129CBT is armed with a fixed 20mm gatling gun under the chin.
Sorry.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

While playing a campaign with Italy in 1986 I found some incongruences. As usual I leave them here to Don and Andy attention.

Tank Companies, either with M60 or Leopard 1 are on 16 tank (1+ 3x5) well into the end of the '80s, also M47 was available at the time, but doesn't show up in the purchase screen.

Mechanized infantry and Bersaglieri should have same organization, with Bersaglieri more elite. And uniformely equipped with either VCC-1 or VCC-2, or M113 for infantry.

Alpini Companies are on three platoons.

unit 088 SPSAM Indigo MEI: not that I complain about having some of these, but what is it? I never heard of it and couldn't find any info on google.

units 124 and 134 M114 155mm howitzer was available till early '90s; let's say 1990 before army reorganization.

units 145-147-151: MLRS entered service in 10/1993 with 20 systems.

unit 141 M15 8" how was available till early '90s; let's say 1990 before army reorganization again.

PS is it just me or campaigns are more difficult than standard scenarios?

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

******Were the five tank platoons in service at the same time as the four tank platoons or didn't the four tank platoons enter service until the late 1980's ?



***** Meaning what exactly ? the Alpini Companies in the game have two "regular" Alpini platoons and an Alpini engineer platoon.

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Don,
re tank platoons: the second you say. Transition from 5 to 4 was done sometime around 1990. It proves hard to draw a precise timeline, and the two platoons may have co-existed for a short time as in every transition. But as organizational TO&E in the '80s they were all on 5, and later both Leos and M60 were reduced to 4. M47 remained on 5 till final dismission in 1989.
re alpini: in 1980 companies are on 3 "assaltatori" platoons, i.e. regular alpini infantry, plus AT platoon and mortar platoon (6x81mm). Alpini engineers form a separate company under brigade command.
Ciao

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

More small addictions:
VCC-1 (units 192-193) have no secondary 7.62 MG, just the main one M2HB 12.7.

Scout and FO vehicles units 216-217-218-219-401 and also light amphibians 202-203 have no weapons on board. I guess this is the case for other armies as well, so maybe there is some reason behind this.

Unit 212 Mav 4: never heard of this one, is it meant to represent some unspecified protected vehicle? The only wheeled APC we had is the FIAT 6614, and only for internal security duties (carabinieri).
All for now
Ciao

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

"Carrozzeria Boneschi TLE Boneschi Multirole 4 x 4 Armoured Vehicle MAV-4 (Italy) "

"The Boneschi MAV-4 is a light armored vehicle used by the Italians......"

Designation: MAV 4
Manufactured by: Carrozeria Boneschi Srl
Type: Armoured Vehicles
Name: Wheeled armoured personnel carrier


It exists and there is info for it on the 'net. Whether it entered service or not in 1958 is questionable.

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Really a rare one! It's probably from the '80s, but I don't have any solid source. Anyway I'd list it in the miscellaneous menu as command or utility vehicle rather than in armor recon companies.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Some other little smoothings:
-units 437 and 438 (MG59 MMG) are both available from 1/73 while the 438 should, presumably, be available from 1/91 after the 437 goes off the list.
-VCC-1 (units 192-193) can carry only 7; infantry and bersaglieri squads carried should be adjusted accordingly start 1/74 (I set units 310-311-312 on 7 men).
-VCC-80 Dardo (units 194-195) has a crew of 3 and can carry 6. Actually the TC could dismount with the squad if needed, but obviously this can't be covered by the game. So it is a matter of choice between 3+6 (formally correct) or a more infantry-friendly 2+7.
Ciao

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Hello there.
It seems taht something has been lost along the way, so again:
- Tank Companies, either with M60 or Leopard 1 are on 16 tank (1+ 3x5)well into the end of the '80s, and not 4+ 4x5. And this applies since their introduction.
- also italian M47 have never been arned with a 105mm gun (unit 016).
- for the A129 Mangusta see above posts #507052 and 564700.
ciao

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

After a long time I'm again at it.
This time I put my attention on the VBM/VBC Freccia, that is units:
041 VBC-R
078 VBC 155mm
089 VBC SAM
200 VBC-I

First of all the 155mm and the VBC SAM have never been conceived, so these are totally fictional units.
VBC-R in the game is portrayed as a Gun APC but it's quite different from the real one in carry capacity and armament.

Unit 200 is the one closest to the VBM Combat version, a wheeled IFV armed with:
weapon 1 25mm KBA with 200 rounds (which should make for 21 rounds in the game as for the Dardo which has the same turret),
weapon 2 7.62 coax MG
weapon 3 7.62 AAMG
Crew is 3+8, and the vehicle is available say starting 1/109.
No data on armor, so your guess is good as mine.
They are organized in companies of 13 vehicles (1+3plx4).

Other versions of the Freccia actually entering service are:
- VBC AT with same stats as the VBM Combat plus 2 Rafael Spike ATGMs, I couldn't find any info about reloads. It is to form 8-vehicles platoons.
- VBM SP mortar with no turret and 120mm TDA 2R2M (range 8km, 13 Km with RAP), no info about reloads; secondary armament 2x 7.62 AAMG, in 4-vehicles platoons.
- VBM PC (Command Post) with no turret, extra C3 equipment, armament still unclear whether 40mm GL or 12.7 or 7.62 MG in remote controlled turret. To be used in pairs at Battalion level HQ.

Other projected versions are a Medevac vehicle on the same chassis of the PC; a pioneer vehicle specialized for urban use; an ARV. But all these are irrelevant to the game.

Don and Andy let me know if all this is worth something.
Edit: the use of VBC/VBM acronyms is very confusing in italian sources, so I suggest to call them all in one way.

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

I'll put it on the list to look into

So what's being used as a SP-SAM then ?

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Ok......so what's the real one like then ?

Don

Re: obat 34 Italy
 

Sorry I had not explained myself. For the real one I meant the VBC Combat (u.200 as above). I'm not sure what a Gun APC is for game-wise, but the "car" is always the same. So I leave it up to you to make a twin of unit 200 as Gun APC.

SP SAM: we never had any :( That's why I asked about the Indigo MEI some posts ago.
All our SP air defence still relies on the SIDAM (units 85-96) which btw has non radar: target engagement is via LRF and optronic equipment. And like VCC1-2-80 and most of M-113 around the world is not amphibious.
And think that for the Sidam they abandoned the OTOMATIC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomatic (which would be an interesting what-if unit like brazilian Osorio and Tamoyo ;))