Unique ruins techs
 

Does anyone use the unique ruins techs?
I haven't found much use for them. I was thinking of changing them to something more useful but I don't know if the AI even uses the current ones. Does anyone know if the standard AI's use them?

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

I was planning on making some newer Versions of the massive planetary shield to increase their power as the player advanced in shield technology. Alas, when I checked the facility stats I noted that the entry for the shield generation was different and there wasn't an equivalent for phased shields... or are those shield points phased already?


------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

The massive engine disruptors are pretty good, but you need a dedicated ship for them.

In my mod, I boosted the Planetary shields from 2000 to 20k, 50k and 75k (depending on tech level), so they are actually useful.
Hopefully, I will be able to mod planetary armor facilities, as well as phased planetary shield facilities.
Until then, planetary shields still work against AIs.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Have you ever seen the AI use them?

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

I never use them. The weapons are just to big and expensive, especially for one shot wonders. And the planetary shield just doesn't give enough protection for the time and resources it takes to build it. Imo that time is better spent building weapon platforms. In the same you can build a planetary shield you can easily build enough weapon platforms with 8000+ shield strenght and weapons as well. Compare that to the planetary shields 2000 shield strenght. And if you have the tech you can make those platform shields phased. Which the planetary one is not. Guess what I'll build? If the planetary shield was cheaper, phased and stronger I'd probably build it.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

What do you think would be good unique techs that would benefit the AI and humans?
I had thought of a maintenance reduction facility/component, an extra movement generator, and special higher level ECM and combat sensors. I want something the AI will use without a lot of changes being made. Anyone have any other suggestions?

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever seen the AI use them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. None of the AI designs have space reserved for components that they will sometimes never get.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

It's really difficult to design ruins techs that the AI could benefit from. They are almost by definition 'special case' techs that allow or even require special strategies. Since you can change these techs in the text files it's a bit hard to design an AI that can understand and use them. Even so, you COULD make the AI at least put the components in ships. I've modified some of the AI files for the races on my local copy of SE to use the Neural Combat Net if they get it. You could create a special ship design for each race to use the Massive Shield Depleter or Massive Engine Destroyer. Put only the spcial weapon family in the design and then put "must have weapon" on it. It won't be built unless that special tech is found.

There ought to be more special techs, anyway. And it's not too hard to think of some good ones. How about a cloaking device that gives level 5 cloaking in everything so it is undetectable? An AI which got that would almost certainly use it (the AI is smart enough to use the 'best' Version of whatever is available) and would be really dangerous with it. A special type of engine that gives very low supply usage would be good. I've got one in my techs. The AI would probably not be smart enough to use this properly, though. I wonder if planetary shields can be regenerated like ship shields? I have planetary shields in my 'normal' tech tree because I think anyone would think of them. But I haven't tried regeneration. If it can work, then a ruins tech that regenerates planetary shields would be really cool. Or just give this ability to the "Massive Planetary Shields" and they have an extra advantage besides being more powerful.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
...There ought to be more special techs, anyway. And it's not too hard to think of some good ones. How about a cloaking device that gives level 5 cloaking in everything so it is undetectable? An AI which got that would almost certainly use it (the AI is smart enough to use the 'best' Version of whatever is available) and would be really dangerous with it. A special type of engine that gives very low supply usage would be good. I've got one in my techs...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Baron, I have to disagree on this one. Maybe a special component to enhance an existing tech tree, but not jump the whole thing - what would happen if an empire hadn't even researched Physics yet? (isn't Physics II a prereq for Cloaking?) Do they just jump all those tech levels (2 physics and 3 or 4 cloaks) - if they do, it could turn into a 'race for the ruins' game. And would the AI even look for them???

A good alternative may be a tech that enhances. Possibly one that boosts your existing cloak tech by 1 (then you could get to level 5 but not in 1 jump) or a 'conservation optimizer' that saves 20% on fuel and weapon consumption. I don't know if these things are possible, but IMO the big jumps in existing tech would unbalance the game.....

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

There could be some disadvantages to providing techs that "jump" tech trees but in order to get the AI to automatically use the special items they must have abilities that the AI uses normally.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Talking about the standard SE4 files, I never use the special tech for the same reasons that Jubala wrote, then, in my view is ok if the AI doesn't use the special tech...

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A good alternative may be a tech that enhances. Possibly one that boosts your existing cloak tech by 1 (then you could get to level 5 but not in 1 jump) or a 'conservation optimizer' that saves 20% on fuel and weapon consumption.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The "normal" ruins already do the former; they give you one level in 1-3 regular techs. If you don't have the tech, you get Level 1; otherwise, you get the next level of the tech.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

I think I've seen some of the TDM races (I think it was EA?) have the massive shield depeleter as the primary weapon of choice for boarding ships. Granted this is a limited example and hard to confirm if it would be useful since the AI builds so few of them if any. The Darloks also seem to have space reserved for planetary shields on their colonies. Unfortunately from my experience with fighting the Rage, I've found that the massive planetary shields are useless against phased weapons.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:
[BThe "normal" ruins already do the former; they give you one level in 1-3 regular techs. If you don't have the tech, you get Level 1; otherwise, you get the next level of the tech.[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't quite what I meant. I didn't mean jumping your current level - I meant making a component available that would boost your current tech / components. For instance (using the Cloaking example), there is not a Cloak Level 5 device. If you found the ruin, you could put a Cloak Level 4 and the 'enhancing component' to get you to level 5. IOW, you could NOT get there by normal tech research, ONLY by getting the ruins. That's the way the MSD's and Planetary Shields are now....

Another ruin could possibly give you enhanced engines that use fewer supplies, etc.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

I haven't noticed the AI using the massive engine-destroying weapon; of course, I haven't seen the AI using the "standard" engine destroying weapons either (one of the SE3 races used it quite a bit; THAT was a pain). Nor have I seen the AI use the weapon-destroying weapons.

As for shield depleters - I've seen one AI race actually use normal shield depleters; I don't know if they'd use the massive shield depleters or not. Personally, I don't use them very often because of the 30-turn reload time. I'm about to test the massive engine depleters, mainly because I finally found that tech for the first time; I've used the massive shield depleter in the past, but it was of limited use. I've NEVER bothered with the neural net component, and I've only built one or two of the planetary shield facilities.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

For the standard engine destroyers try the Pyrochette race (sp?) they use the engine destroyer as one of their main weapons combined with temporal weapons. Quite nasty.

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Well, how about, for example, if the ruins gave a special tech which say, gave a basic low-level cloaking device that was slightly different from the existing one, and was also a prerequisite for level 5 cloak, in addition to level 4 cloak. In this way, the special tech would give a toy immediately, would not make physics and cloaking research obsolete, and would allow level 5 cloaking device, eventually.

PvK


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
That wasn't quite what I meant. I didn't mean jumping your current level - I meant making a component available that would boost your current tech / components. For instance (using the Cloaking example), there is not a Cloak Level 5 device. If you found the ruin, you could put a Cloak Level 4 and the 'enhancing component' to get you to level 5. IOW, you could NOT get there by normal tech research, ONLY by getting the ruins. That's the way the MSD's and Planetary Shields are now....

Another ruin could possibly give you enhanced engines that use fewer supplies, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathstalker:
For the standard engine destroyers try the Pyrochette race (sp?) they use the engine destroyer as one of their main weapons combined with temporal weapons. Quite nasty.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea Deathstalker... I have included the Engine Destroyer inside the Pyrochette ships. And was because I remembered my old races in SE3 with this cool weapon, and wanted to see it again in SE4!

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

A possible solution to Ruins Tech:

Make them the "seed" for a new tech tree. This allows them to be improved upon.

My mod (in testing) allows weapons with a better rate of fire, and a few other options. examples:

Name := Ultra-Tech Shield Depleters
Group := Weapon Technology
Description := Weapons designed to deplete all of a target's shields.
Maximum Level := 3
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Massive Shield Depleting Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Ultratech Shield Depleter I
Description := Massive gamma radiation beam which saps all of a target's shields but does no other damage.
Pic Num := 198
Tonnage Space Taken := 100
Tonnage Structure := 100
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2043
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ultra-Tech Shield Depleters
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat
Weapon Damage At Rng := 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Shields Only
Weapon Reload Rate := 15
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 16
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := shlddepl.wav
Weapon Family := 37

Name := Ultratech Shield Depleter II
Description := Massive gamma radiation beam which saps all of a target's shields but does no other damage.
Pic Num := 198
Tonnage Space Taken := 100
Tonnage Structure := 100
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 1500
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2043
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ultra-Tech Shield Depleters
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat
Weapon Damage At Rng := 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Shields Only
Weapon Reload Rate := 10
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 16
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := shlddepl.wav
Weapon Family := 37

Name := Ultratech Shield Depleter III
Description := Massive gamma radiation beam which saps all of a target's shields but does no other damage.
Pic Num := 198
Tonnage Space Taken := 100
Tonnage Structure := 100
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 2000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2043
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ultra-Tech Shield Depleters
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat
Weapon Damage At Rng := 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Shields Only
Weapon Reload Rate := 5
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 16
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := shlddepl.wav
Weapon Family := 37

-------------------------------------------------------------

Name := Ultra-Tech Shields
Group := Applied Science
Description := Massive shield generators which can protect an entire planet, or offer unrivalled protection for a vessel.
Maximum Level := 3
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Massive Planetary Shielding
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Ultratech Shield Generator I
Description := Generator which creates an energy field around a starship preventing damage.
Pic Num := 31
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 1000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Shields
Family := 11
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Shields
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Ultra-Tech Shields
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 100 shield points.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 100
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 1 Type := Shield Regeneration
Ability 1 Descr := Regenerates 50 shield points per turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Ultratech Phased Shield Generator I
Description := Generator which creates an energy field around a starship preventing damage.
Pic Num := 31
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 1000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Shields
Family := 11
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Shields
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Tech Area Req 2 := Ultra-Tech Shields
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 100 shield points.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 100
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 1 Type := Shield Regeneration
Ability 1 Descr := Regenerates 50 shield points per turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


.... and so on.

I think this works with the ideas about cloaking - add Massive Cloak tech, but the tech items require both the ruins tech AND regular cloaking tech.

I will be thinking soon about new ruins techs, with the goal of creating mega-rare crossover ultra-techs. (facilities and components which require 2 ruins techs to create...!) I certainly want to create ultra-tech which helps counter or replicate racial unique abilities... more ideas liek the super-cloak, which only have any function when used in conjucntion with regular tech.. and more.

UNTESTED : Haven't tried transferring the ultratechs to another race : logically they would not be able to understand them though.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Actually, since the ultra-tech area in not a racial or ruins tech, and since it has a runis tech prerequisite;
Other races will be able to trade/steal it, but not research it.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

The ruins are a good way to get a lot of new techs into the game without adding racial traits or modding the whole tech tree.
The question is how to get the AI to use them all. They would have to find each level to advance them unless the tech could show up as an addition to an existing tech tree. Would it work this way, Ultra shields are part of the shield tech tree but unavailable for use until the tech is discovered on a ruin? If so then a tremendous amount of techs can be added that the AI would use automatically.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

How I see it working, the AI can be scripted to research the various Ultra-Techs at the earliest point the scripter wants them to start. Then, at any point if they get the ruins tech, they would start researching the resulting ultra-tech.

If they CAN be traded, then I would make the first level of Ultra-Tech just be equivalent to the basic ruins tech. Perhaps, even, remove any items from the ruins tech - you can't build massive planetary shields by getting that tech, all it does is lets you research the ultra-tech tree! This means, quite elaborate ruins items can be added in safety, because ruins tech itself adds nothing to the race. Only if they research the clues they find, can they develop any technology.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

My thinking was if a tech could be added as a part of the tree, in this case shields, but keep the component/facility from being available until the ruins tech was found. Then the AI would automaically use it if it found the tech, no reprogramming would be needed. I think the AI looks at abilities and families when building, not the actual names or descriptions of the items.
If this is actually how it works then any number of new techs could be added and then some ruins techs would finally be worth using. Judging from the responses in this thread the current ones are duds.

Another thought, can a racial tech also be a ruins tech? That might be cool.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 12 June 2001).]

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Yeah that should work, make an item with an extra tech requirement.

I tried making a tech both racial and unique, I didn't do an exhaustive test but colonized dozens of ruins - never once got the special tech, often got *nothing* and no message - I presumed this was me finding the racial/ruin stuff and not being allowed to get it.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

I have seen AI races build planetary shield generators. The generators take way too long to build for the small amount of protection that they provide.

I have also seen the unique techs not be unique. I have encountered AI players that have the same “unique” tech as I have. I have no idea why that is.

The massive shield depleter and other massive weapons are totally useless. They do not do enough damage and have that asinine 30 turn reload rate. 1k of shield damage is pathetic for a “massive” weapon. How about 10k of damage or 3 turn reload rate. This would make the weapons actually worthwhile.

I prefer to find cargo II or some other useful tech rather than any of the massively useless techs. When I get the massively useless shield depleter I feel as if I’ve gotten the booby prize!

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

There are only 4 unique techs so you are right, they aren't very unique.
I would like to see 20 - 25 unique techs to give some variety. I think it could be done by modding advanced Versions of the current techs with the same family numbers and tech requirements. That way the AI may actually use them if it is a tech they normally research.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Well, I had a little time after I came home from work today and I did a little playtesting with the planetary shields. Hooray Map Editor. Put a moon on a homeworld and gave it the unique ruins to get Massive Planetary Shields very early. Then used the cheat codes to rush research and production.

First, I confirmed that the regular ones that come with the game do not block phased weapons. Then I went in and changed the shield type to phased shield generation, like what the regular ones use. That worked and blocked the phased poleron beams I was using.

Then I made ten other entries for the shield and gave them two tech requirements. Massive Planetary Shields and a level of Shields tech and increased the shield strength by 500 per level. As I advanced shield tech, a new Version of the planetary shield became available. Upgraded as I go and ran test combats. The shield rate increased.

So, the only thing the shields won't stop are troop drops and null space cannons. Now the question is, how high do I want to set them, keeping in mind that there are only 30 combat turns and things like shield regeneration are an insult to injury... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

(I consider an upper limit of 20k shields to be excessive to say the least. Or maybe I should drop the number of upgrades available since any modded AI that builds these things are going to be spending 25k minerals per upgrade.)

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

VEERS: My lord, the fleet has moved out of light-speed. Com-Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.

VADER: (angrily) The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of light-speed too close to the system.

VEERS: He felt surprise was wiser...

VADER: He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack.


I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with being able to raise a planetary shield too strong for conventional orbital bombardment to break, provided troops can still land. If nothing else, you can blockade the planet. And if there's no gravitational shield facility, the Death Star can still blow the place to smithereens... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by BeeDee10 (edited 14 June 2001).]

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Why not add some of the race pic techs to ruin techs. Maybe like a tech that just gives organic armor, or alliegence subverter, that would be cool.

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

Doh! posted twice.

[This message has been edited by ZeroAdunn (edited 14 June 2001).]

Re: Unique ruins techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have also seen the unique techs not be unique. I have encountered AI players that have the same ?unique? tech as I have. I have no idea why that is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The game just uses "unique" as a label for the techs that can only be found in ruins rather than by normal research. AFAIK, there are no checks to make sure that each "unique" tech is found on only one ruins planet.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 14 June 2001).]