Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Just read Edi's WAD post.

Apparently its possible, I believe that a destroyer of worlds pretender can have the 4 hand slots equipped with magic items and still keep the plague bow and lightning weapon as well.

Can anyone tell me what to equip and where, what order to put it in, please?

Assume I can build any magic item upto lvl 6 constuction.

Also anyone's thoughts on the best equipment to equip a destroyer of worlds pretender would be cool.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

What magic paths does he have?

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

as long as you don't give him any ranged weapons he'll keep the lightning and the bow. if you give him only ranged weapons he'll keep the non-ranged weapons.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

He did have 4A & 4D but has died once so its 3 in each now.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

This is not correct, I equipped a rat tail and all 4 natural weapons vanished.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

hmm, well as long as the last slot is a shield, I think they stay. I know twin spear+fire brand+unquenched sword+charcoal shield results in still having your ranged weapons.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Excellent, this is exactly what I wanted. So the key is to make the last slot a shield? Can you have 2 shields btw and would you after go weapon+shield+weapon+shield, thus having the effects from 2 weapons, 2 shields, plus still keeping your plague bow and lightning attacks?

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

yeah, as long as you end with a shield

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

That'd be the test I was talking about in the WAD post and that I hadn't done. Thanks for confirming it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edi

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Well if you cant have artifacts how about:
Shadow Brand, Fire Brand/Frost Brand(which resistances will help you/which AoE will damage enemies), Faithful, Charcoal Shield, Horror Helm, Hydra Skin Armour, Boots of quickness, Amulet of resilence?

Or you could just go less defensive with:
Shadow Brand, Fire Brand, Frost Brand, Faithful, Horror Helm, Jade Armour, Winged Shoes, Amulet of Resilence(6 AoE attacks per turn split between 2 squares http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

Or for hunting enemy SCs: 4xDuskdagger, Spirit Helm, Jade Armour, Flying Shoes, Elixer of Life/Ring of the warrior(only if the enemy has exceptional defence). 8 Attacks with 2+strength AN unresistable damage+a lightning bolt from your helm probably means any single enemy you face should die(even if they go first, fly up and kill you the elixer will bring you back and most SCs cant paralyze you). That build lacks the ability to take on armies due to its lack of survivability.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

it would be survivable on a pretender with the right magic paths... though against large armies he'd probably route before he was finished with his killing.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

If you swapped 1 dagger for faithful, spirit helm for horror helm, jade armour for hydra skin armour and flying shoes for boots of quickness it might work against bigger forces(losses flying and one of his dagger attacks. gains luck and regen)

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

So, what you were asking was how to exploit a bug, yes?

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

As Edi says, this IS NOT A BUG. Its working as designed (WAD), you just after understand the mechanics of how to do it correctly, which I was confused about.

Like Edi says too many people are confusing bug with WAD. This is what made the bug thread unusable by the developers. Understandable however, given how complex Dom3 is.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

I'd still say that you are using 4 hands by this and the Destroyer of Worlds magically has two extra ones. He only has one attack if you give him just a single one-handed weapon, and you had trouble to set it up correctly that those two ranged extra-attacks pop up, too. This is WAD?

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

sure is, read the thread.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Yes, it is WAD. Did you or did you not read the explanation I posted in the WAD post in the bug discussion thread?

If you equip the DoW in a manner that gives it 3 melee weapons and a shield and leaves its intrinsic ranged weapons there, what is the problem? It can only use one or the other, melee or missile, at a time! Eitehr it uses its intrinsic melee weapons or its equipped melee weapons to strike at enemies in adjacent squares, or it uses its intrinsic or equipped missile weapons to fire at enemies farther away. It CANNOT do both.

If this is a bug, as you claim, then explain to me how and WHY it is a bug. Provide me with some evidence or some form of reasoning that logically arrives at a different conclusion than mine did. Your personal sense of outrage at people optimizing the unit is NOT sufficient.

Edi

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

I'm not sure about this 'shield gives ranged weapon back'.

I've tested a 2-hander with intristic ranged weapon:

Give him a item weapon and he lose his ranged weapon.

Add a shield and he get it ranged intristic back.

For me that isn't real logical and a (minor) bug. But i've no problem with a WAD.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

sounds like the bug, to me, is that the ranged weapons go away when only a melee weapon is equiped. (archers get both, after all.)

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Edi, I have no problem that he keeps his missile weapons when he carries a shield, but it is strange to me that he loses all his intrinsic weapons, missile and melee, as soon as you use one hand slot for a single-handed weapon and have three free hand slots remaining. Since you said that it's already in the bug list, whether it's a bug or WAD, let's see what the devs have to say about that.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Plenty of dominions units incorporte a ranged weapon as well as a one-hander and shield. Good examples are all the infantry units for Ermor (javelin + tower shield + spear) or the crossbow infantry for LA man (crossbow, greatsword). Most knights also have a lance as well as sword and shield. Why is this significant? It shows that Dom3 units can carry more weapomns than they have hands, but not use all of them at once.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

DoW definitely keeps his lightning in his pocket

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

I think the point was that it was buggy for all of the weapons to dissapear when you equip a single weapon on him. There's nothing wrong with the fact that he can have 6 weapons at once, since they will only use melee or range weapon. However, if you put a single dagger on him, the only thing he will use is the dagger, what happened to the other 3 intrisic melee weapon hands, or the 2 range weapons? The bug is that these should NOT dissapear. It is also buggy that you have to equip a shield inorder to keep your range weapons. Why can't you use 4 melee weapons, and then switch to 2 range weapons when the time comes?

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

*sigh*

Most units on Dom3 have only one weapon unless they are something like the assassin or the EA Ulm warriors. When equipped with an item weapon, the intrinsic weapon is replaced. I don't know precisely what kind of checking is involved in that, but it generally replaces all melee weapons. Not a problem as such because most units only have one to begin with.

Missile weapons are bonus wrt melee weapons but most of them require two hands. This is probably why they disappear when equipping a single item weapon, since there is no flag to differentiate missile weapons from melee weapons as such. Adding range and shots is what turns a melee weapon to a range weapon, but here is no specific identifier flag. So if one hand slot is full, scratch missile weapon. Add shield and for some reason the check algorithm recognizes the difference and returns the missile weapons.

All of the above assumes a two-handed unit, not one with four, in which case the peculiar behavior starts. It's noteworthy that this feature has been around at least since Dom2, probably since DomPPP. DoW is the only unit that is significantly impacted, the closest followers being the Van and Hel commanders with javelin.

Altogether this affects only a few units and in very minor ways since something like the DoW is going to get a full kit of items anyway. Now we just know how to optimize it. So even if we get a consensus on the bug vs. feature, whether or not it's worth fixing (taking into account the possible amount of work and the possibility of something else breaking due to some unforeseen factor) is a determination only the devs and more specifically Johan can reliably make.

Edi

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Working As Designed, because it doesn't usually matter, is fair enough. A matter of taste to have it in the list.

But dont say it makes logical sense to be able to wield a default spear, a defeault Broad sword, and four Fire Bolas... but not a main gauche of parrying and the two default ranged weapons. With four shields you get Fist *and* the two default ranged weapons.

My EA centaur hierophant keeps his long bow if I give him Hunters knife + shield, but not if I give him shield + hunters knife.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

http://koti.welho.com/ehalttun/Image...s/banghead.gif

I've been repeating over and over that this is how it seems to behave when checking for what weapons a unit can wield and that most missile weapons are 2-handed. Getting affliction "lost an arm" means the unit losing e.g. longbow or banefire bow, and it has something to do with the checking algorithm.

Based on the observed behavior of the checking algorithm that deals with units that possess 2 hand slots and what weapons appear and disappear when you mix items and intrinsics in what order, it is consistent and logical.

Whether or not it is logical from a point of view that disregards repeated and tested observations is another matter. I have not seen the relevant algorithm, so I cannot pass judgment on what should be done to it on the coding level to get things to match what most people see as the behavior it, in their opinion, SHOULD have.

Edi

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Edi, i think they're just giving you Hard Time.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

You seem to be saying it's working as designed because "this is how it seems to behave"?

I think people get what the behavior is. I do. That doesn't mean the behavior is intended. Maybe it is. Maybe the devs intended a centaur with a knife to not be able to use his bow, but if he also had a shield he could. Seems weird to me, but I suppose it's possible.

If it's too small a problem to bother fixing because it doesn't affect too many units and you can work around it by putting a shield in the last slot, then fine. That makes sense. Maybe there should be a "Will not fix" category.

But don't claim people are disregarding "repeated and tested observations." We see the behavior. The behavior doesn't make sense.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

To reiterate: The behavior of weapons for 4-armed monsters is logical and consistent in light of behavior with 2-armed monsters. Hence 4-armed behavior is not a bug.

If the behavior seems nonsensical and you would like it changed, then put it in the bloody feature request wishlist. With the magic word included.

Edi

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

What so hard to understand about a destroyer of worlds using its 4 hands to fire 2 missile weapons, then when the enemy closes in, putting them away or just throwing them to the ground or whatever then hefting 3 single handed weapons plus a shield and wading into melee.

Alls seems very, very straight forward to me. My characters did it all the time when I was roleplaying. They do it in the films as well, watch Legolas in Lord of the Rings for example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Then would it make sense to consider the two-armed behavior a bug? Like with the centaur.

Give him a melee weapon he loses the range weapon.
Add a shield he gets it back. As reported by calmon above.
That's what I consider odd. Seems to me he should keep the ranged weapon as long as he isn't given a range weapon.
Trivial, probably. Bug? Maybe.


I'd misunderstood your consistency argument since it did not mention 4-armed specifically and it seemed to me that the discussion had moved on to include whether the two-armed behavior made sense. My apologies for that.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

No, what THEY'd do then is to use the shield as a skateboard for sliding down the castle stairs, while performing high precision archery at the same time. Please don't use that movie as a reference anymore... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

well that was just a display of how incredibly skillful legolas was.

he had, like, a precision 20.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

and that was just with his left hand... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

I'm with the "this is clearly a bug" crew on this one. You can get into all the semantic hoohah about what exactly qualifies something as a bug, but to me it sems pretty simple; it's a quirk of the weapon system which could and should be fixed. It's not what you'd call high priority though.

If the devs intended you to have to put a shield in the last slot to enable default missile weapons and programmed the game that way,.. well then there's no point in me trying to understand whether anything is WAD, because they clearly have very unusual thought processes.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Yes they do, which is probably why Dominions is such an original and unique game compared to the elves, orcs and other standard fair you get in other fantasy games.

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Well as this thread is talking about hand slots, is it possible to equip 2 shields in the hand slots and gain the effects from both?

Also if the 2 hand slots contain the same shield, will there effects stack?

Thanks in advance for any nice individuals who know the answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Destroyer of worlds weapon slots
 

Pretty sure two shields works just fine.