Austrian OOB, old and new
 

this post is primarily for Plasmakrab and Shan as the PM is a pain, others are welcome to comments but some info has been covered by PM already. It will be mulitpart.

The following can be used the period 1979-2004 (from 1999 the "Ulan" replaces the "Sauer" APC/AIFV)

At the moment we are only talking about "regular" infantry (Jäger). Other units (Landwehr, Sperrtruppen, Mountain, etc.) will be delt with in course.

“Jäger” Company:

“New” units Stg-77 and MG-72, “old” units with Stg-58 and MG-42
Transport given as “Trucks”, can and usually is Pinzgauer, as presently in OOB, but also normal trucks.

1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
3x “Support” Sections (generic) (5 men) (stg-77, pistol)
TRANSPORT: 2 light vehicles, 3 Heavy Trucks

3x „Jäger“ Platoon:
1 x Command Section: (5 men, WITHOUT snipers and dismounted drivers)
Due to experience of unit this should be classed recce, as previously.
Stg-77 (Stg-58) Pistol, Grenade

3 x “Jäger” Squads ( 8 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (4), Grenade)

2 x Snipers SSG-69 (1 man)

1x Heavy MG M2 (3 men) (can be mounted on light vehicle as AAMG)
TRANSPORT:
2 Heavy Trucks, 1 Light Truck

PLUS

2 x “Carl Gustav” Teams (each 4 men) from Company “Heavy” Platoon
(NOT organic but nearly always attached to Platoon)
“heavy” ammo load (16 rounds total, say 6 HE and 10 AP, excl. smoke and illumination) + Stg-77, Grenade

1 x “Heavy Jäger” Platoon:
1 x Command Section ( 3 men), normal class, Stg-77 (Stg-58) Pistol, Grenade
6 x “Car Gustav” Teams (detached to platoons, see above)
2 x 81mm mortar teams (6 men)
1x FO
TRANSPORT:
4 Heavy Trucks, 2 Light Vehicles

Not included here: other supply troops, two “Kradmelder” (motorbike scouts/couriers), other support units.

“S”- Company (“Schwere Jäger” Heavy Company) Note: 1 of 4 active companies of the JgBN
1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
5x “Support” Sections (generic) (5 men) (stg-77, pistol)
3x Ammo Trucks
TRANSPORT: 2 light vehicles, 5 Heavy Trucks

1 x Battery 20mm FLAK
3x 20mm AAA FLAK (can be SP on Pinzgauer)
3x light transports


2x “rPAK Zug” (ATG Platoon)
3 x 105m M42A2 ATG (or 85mm)
3x Medium Truck
Note: The 105mm ATG is much too unaccurate and underpowered in the present OOB, if this is not fixed then 85mm ATG should be used instead as performance in game is more like the 105. (should be 500mm penetration according to FAS)

1x Heavy Motor Platoon
3x 120mm motor team
3 x Medium Truck
1 FO + vehicle

“Panzergrenadier” Company

1x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol) – Saurer APC
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol) – Saurer APC
3x “Support” Sections (generic) (5 men) (stg-77, pistol) – 3x Heavy Truck
1x Ammo Truck


3x “Panzergrenadier” Platoon
1x Command Section ( 2 men/Scout) Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
1 x Sniper SSG-69
1x Carl Gustav Team (4 men)
Transport: 20mm “Saurer” MK66 AIFV

1x XO Section ( 2 men/Scout) Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
1 x Sniper SSG-69
1x Carl Gustav Team (4 men)
Transport: 20mm “Saurer” MK66 AIFV

3x “Panzergrenadier” Squad (8) as currently listed: Stg-77, MG, LAW (4), Grenade
Transport: 3 x Saurer APC

2x “Saurer” SP-Motor (82mm)

more to come next week - feedback welcome

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Thanks for all that info! Good work again.

Now a question: what is the exact layout of the Pazergrenadiere platoons? I mean, where do the transport vehicles stand?
Is each vehicle part of one infantry squad or are all APC/IFVs lumped together in a platoon-level transportation squad, as with the Russian troops?

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Excellent! I will start implementing this ASAP... I just don't see how our 2nd agenda (jiefang deguo) shall ever be achieved with such units... well, maybe we could make the Jagdkommando be our 'Übersoldat' fighters then... ;-)

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

one question - should we really include ammo trucks in the heavy company? Let it be like that in reality, but this is AFAIK nowhere like that in any OOB of the game... you have to buy them extra...

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Don't get "creative" with this. Follow the procedure used in other OOB's and other OOB's do not have ammo trucks in Mech infantry companies OR "command" sections with three men. You might as well just name them "kill me first" and be done with it

If you're building this with the intention of sharing it with a few dozen players by all means build it however you like. However if you are building it with the idea of *maybe* offering it as a candidate for "Official OOB" status where 10,000 people will see and use it then follow the procedures used in the existing OOB .
Don

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Shan,

Don is right, don't include ammo trucks in combat formations (above all infantry or armor, I don't know about artillery), since in IA command (as far as I remember, maybe it has been corrected in the latest versions) the trucks will attack with the rest of the formation, and they are generally faster.
And you don't want to end up with exploding ammo trucks on your frontline...

As for command sections, I have run into this problem in the French OOB as well. IMHO they are to be included if you want a realistic OOB, but you can make them inconspicuous enough and more resilient.
EG here you can take the PzGr platoon HQ (and XO) group, add in the Carl Gustav team and the sniper, and you'll end up with two identical "support sections" (or just give them the same name as the normal section), with 2+4+1=7 men each and a decent weapon layout of AUG/sniper/CG/grenade.
You lose some flexibility (e.g. no separate sniper you can hide behind the troops) but you have much less chance that your platoon HQ will be singled out and wiped out on turn 2.
Other question, while I'm at it (may have a relation with that problem too): what is the level of training of the platoon-level snipers? Are they top-notch infiltration-capable snipers British-style or just trained marksmen with good rifles? In the second case you have even more reason to include them in the infantry units.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Thanks Don - we're just starting with this, so that's why I was asking... our intention should be to follow the rules and try to make it an official candidate as a long-term goal - it will be alot of work and that should be useful for everyone of course.

So - Siddhi - what do we do with all the command and XO sections, etc? We'd better only have one company command section (classes as Recce, +3 Exp/Morale?) with more men, as with other OOBs, is that acceptable? The 5-men support sections could be left as they are... but we'd better rename them to avoid misunderstandings - they are only lightly armed and not used for fire support, only supply, right?

For your own scenarios you could modify that anyway if you want a 100% correct force.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Plasmakrab,

we'll have to wait for Siddhi's reply on that, but I'd keep the snipers separate to retain flexibility and just have HQ units with more men but no extra weapons... also, he might be able to tell you more about the sniper taining in the standard Jaeger company, but for infiltration and SF work we have the Jagdkommando units, both active and militia, which will be included later.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Thing is, you have 3 mech sections, 3 APCs, 2 gun APCs, 2 command sections (CO & XO), 2 AT teams, 2 snipers...
Total of 14 units, a bit over the top for a platoon.
For now I have modelled it this way:

-Unit 1: "Pzgrenadier Sqd", CO (class 70, 7 men, AUG/sniper/CG/grenade)
-Unit 2: Saurer 4K7FA-GA (class 122, 20mm)
-Unit 3: "Pzgrenadier Sqd", XO (class 70, 7 men, AUG/sniper/CG/grenade)
-Unit 4: Saurer 4K7FA-GA (class 122, 20mm)
-Unit 5: "Pzgrenadier Sqd", combat sec (class 69, 8 men, AUG/LMG/LAW/grenade)
-Unit 6: Saurer 4K7FA (class 25, 12.7mm)
-Unit 7: "Pzgrenadier Sqd", combat sec (class 69, 8 men, AUG/LMG/LAW/grenade)
-Unit 8: Saurer 4K7FA (class 25, 12.7mm)
-Unit 9: "Pzgrenadier Sqd", combat sec (class 69, 8 men, AUG/LMG/LAW/grenade)
-Unit 10: Saurer 4K7FA (class 25, 12.7mm)

As such, there is no place for more separate units, sadly.
And as Don said, 2-3-men command squads will always be priority targets and easier to kill. Merging them with the 4-men CG team gives already more resilience.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

You are right, I just modeled the Jaeger company and found that a Jaeger platoon, as Siddhi proposed, would have 12 sections, including the vehicles... 10 is the maximum... we have to reduce that- and given the poor radios, most units would constantly be out of contact,,,

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

You're right, Shan, the Jaeger platoon will be tough.
Two versions can pass as such though: the dismounted platoon (without trucks) and one without CG teams (kind of "Jaeger Plt -AT").
For the motorized version, I'd advise to go about the same way as with the Panzergrenadiere, make an agglomerate command section with 9-10 men and StG/sniper/CG/grenade, and keep a single AT team and a single sniper separate. Leaves room for three trucks.
Now the Pandur platoon is another matter.

Radios is not much of a problem. Command sections are of a separate class that gets high radio rating early on. The average sections are left without much of a chance to get a radio until recent years, and so the platoon must operate within shouting distance (spread over 10 hexes is reasonable for 4 sections), but can operate independently away from HQ.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Just for the record, the common practice in OB's is (or should be) to incorporate platoon and company level snipers into the squads, not as seperate units. That's becasue these function as part of a larger group (the squad) and not as free agents. The russians in their mech platoons for example have a support section that includes a sniper rifle. That's the platoon sniper incorporated into the squad. Seperate sniper units should be used to represent those snipers who operate independently. There is a grey area though, as the russian para-platoons for example have a separate independent sniper.

Narwan

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

The problem with integrating snipers into squads (particularly in the Russian motor rifles) is the number of weapon slots. When you have to deal with a squad with AK-74s, one or two PKs, one RPG-7, the odd RPG-18, at least 2 BG-15 plus hand grenades, you don't want to top that with a sniper rifle or MANPADS.
As far as I'm concerned, I've modeled the Russian BMP/BTR platoon with three identical squads (AK/PK/RPG/grenade) plus a separate sniper and a separate SAM (optional). Notice that standard separate SAM team is 2 men, and that standard snipers are generally highly-trained units not consistent with the Russian doctrine. So both sniper and SAM I've copied into new mech infantry unit classes, both with a crew of 1 and a size of 1 (reduced concealment ability).
I'm not 100% satisfied with it, since both separate 1-man units tend to die a lot.

If you look, the official US OOB uses a similar trick for mech units regarding Dragon/Javelin teams.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

hi chaps a lot of really good discussion here, i will summarise the key points FMPOV.

- the three units i have shown is the "actual" and official OOB for the periods in question, this is derived from various bits of army manuals i have.

- the OOB has already been slightly simplified; e.g. the Jäger units all have so-called "combat drivers" as part of their org (e.g. for the pinzgauer) who are fully-equipped/trained light infantry, howewever as there principle job is to protect the tranports (they never realyl go away from them) there is no reason to include them. also some other units, such as the motorcyle recce / couriers (2 per company) have been taken out.

- the austrian jäger company has a very heavy TO&E, this is a historic and well known fact. the jäger bN itself has the assets most infantry regiments have. the reason for this is primarily political - a BN sounds smaller then a regiment. one thing that is repeated a lot in our old manuals is the problems in having a such a large unit to command as a company commander, especially as it would nearlly always have another company-sized assets (!) attached in support.

- the TO&E is intended to be playable and WINSPMBT conform, therefore things that should not be in there (i.e. ammo trucks) should be removed.

- the question regarding company XO units is a litte more complicated, as because of the poor radio sitation before ca. 1990(only platoon has access to company/BN/* net, no tactical radios except for recce / scout patrols the XO performed a vital function in extending "the command radius". as DRG mentioned they are instant targets one option is to simply give them more men, if we remove the "generic" supply units that becomes kind of important anyway.i would say add a couple of men and keep them.

OTOH the Jäger squad itself is commanded by professional NCOs (not like WP) that have on average at least 4 years experience. there should be a "rally" bonus to these unit commanders (rank: "wachtmeister", at least.) One the platoon level there is also sometimes an "detached" XO to help the platoon commander (which I did not add), as the platoon is supposed to be able to cover on average 100m frontage (sometimes more, or less).


- the snipers and M2 HMG were a platoons heavy support. Some suggestions have already been made, a little more info: the two snipers are "true" snipers (trained in all 8 "sniper skills", not marksman, which offically every infantryman is supposed to be - also internationally verified). at least one is "special" enlisted man, sometimes one is a junior NCO. The HMG also operates independantly, as is usally not part of a platoon.

OTOH as many will know I disagree with the accuracy levels of some the rifles and believe contrary to recieved wisdom here that is very important - these days my acutal day-time job is national security and we have very precise results that are expected to be achieved from various units firing at various other units in different positions and with different equipment. The accuracy of the Stg-77 is for instance one reason why we did not orginally introduce rifle-gernades, as they were simply not needed (as opposed to hand gernades).

as i believe we are not going to be able to solve this debate one possibility is to make the snipers organic to the squads - which is NOT what they usually are (snipers, not marksman) and do the same with the M2. i am not in favor of this, but if this is the only way to accurately model a jäger platoon then that is it. of ocurse the squad manpower would have to be adjusted as a result. still while the combat power of the squad might increase marginally the platoon combat power will fall as a result.

the other option would be to put one sniper (in slot 2) in the platoon command squad, and one independant. i would NOT make the transport organic as we have "command problems" already, simply making a seperate category "company tranpsort" (under the command of the XO) might be more appropriate. OTOH if the transport HAS to be organic (i leave this to PK and SHAN to decide - PK made a good suggestion regarding dismounted "reinforced" jaäger platoon and mounted "normal" jäger) then it is also possible to mount the m2 on the puch light transport, as indeed it is intended, although in this case the transport needs to be upgraded with 1 armour each (plating is added in this function).

- finally i forgot to mention that the pandur obviously changes things somewhat, the units become more streamlines, but that is the "new" TO&E which we will get to. before that however the Bill-2000 (RBS ATGW) are introduced (Say 1996) and start to replace the RL guns. BTW if the 106 DO NOT have their stats changed i insist on the 85mm being used instead.

- final point: i am unsure as to ammo loadout for the CG teams. in retrospect i seem to remember those goddamned heavy shells being carried two to a container - which means there should be 8 rather then 16 shells for a normal team (say 10 with the commander), however in present SPMBT the two-man teams already pack that much, and the team should certainly have twice as much munition as do others internationally ( this topic came up before in officer thing, the swedes mentioned that we "got a lot of milleage" from the CG because of all the munition we had for it. i leave this open to be decided. btw the CG team usually had a radio.

i will try to punch out the other units in the next two days.

Re: Austrian OOB, old and new
 

Guys,

Attached here is a first version of the platoon-level formations of the PzGrenadiere and Jägers, and details of the relevant unit classes.
I've tried to compromise between stand-alone support weapons and available unit slots in the formations. All the hows and whys are explained inside.

\"Garde\" (Gaurd) BN and \"Ehrengard\" (Honor Gaurd)Co
 

My perfered solution for the above mentioned problem of too many units for the jäger platoon:

- 1 sniper as marksman in the platoon command section (slot 2), 1 sniper independant

- M2HMG mounted on the Puch halflinger (1st vehicle) as AAMG, Puch to be "up armoured" with 1 armor value

In contrast, we can say the "Gaurd" BN does not have assigned transport (they do, but..) but in contrast has the "original" Jäger OOB listed above, i.e. all support sections seperate. NB: this is not really accurate, but it'll do!

So, the difference in the "Garde" to the "Jäger" OOB is
- no vehicles attached
- all support units independant
- Experience +3, Moral + 5 (compared to the "average" Jäger)

The "Honor Gaurd" Company is a bit different. These guys get additional training and have their own specific Company layout. Besides being the "parade soldiers" they also had very challanging war duties, such as protecting the government on evacuation.
- Experience +6, Moral + 10

"Ehrengarde" Company
1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)

3 x "Ehrengard" Platoon
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77, Grenade,SMG,(SCOUT)
2 x Medium Squads (same as Jäger squad)
2 x Heavy Squad (Stg-77, MG72, CG, Grenade)

1 x Engineer Platoon
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77 Pistol, Grenade (SCOUT)
3 x "Pioneer" Section (8 men): Stg-77, MG72 Satchel Charge (8), SMG

1 x Sniper Group
1 x Command Section (4 men): Stg-77 Pistol, Grenade (SCOUT)
5x Heavy Sniper / Recce Teams ( 2 men):
Heavy Sniper Rifle, Stg-77, Gernade (Vision 40)

Re: \"Garde\" (Gaurd) BN and \"Ehrengard\" (Honor Gaurd)Co
 

I'll have a version of the Jaeger Company ready soon, I'll post it here then. If all transport is pooled at company level, then we have no problems with attached support units - the only problem will be playability, with 9 squads in a platoon... also, the platoon command section cannot be up-rated in morale as I said, and it's pretty useless in the fight with 5 (?) men and poor armament... one sniper rifle for it wold be good, the other one independent as a compromise.

I'd create at least two versions of the whole company anyway- one as mentioned, the other one with the heavy weapons retained in the heavy platoon-- and maybe a third one with the heavy MGs mounted on the light vehicles (Haflinger, also representing Puch G, or better Pinzgauer 4x4?) - but I have my doubts about up-armoring them, even if its L1 and only on the sides of course--- crazy commanders would use them as their support platforms...

A general question: The standard Jaeger company had no orgaic engineers, only at battalion level? But the Garde company did have them?

And the snipers you mentioned - we are talking about 1979-2004--- uprated vision should IMO therefore be gradually introduced..

Also: light anti-armor weapons --- was the M-72 LAW (designation in German??) truly used until 2004? I was told the PAR-70 (Miniman) was the standard weapon, by the way... and the other thing: The Jaeger platoon with Par66 will be erased as it never existed - is that correct?

I haven't heard from you on this, but I'd keep all the designations in German - in a way still understandable for everyone. This is common practice, look at the trends of other modified OOBs, and it's not that bad anyway in our case - take Sweden or Canada where all aircraft have changed designations, etc...

Re: \"Garde\" (Gaurd) BN and \"Ehrengard\" (Honor Gaur
 

Shan, beware with the uparmored trucks. If you want to give them some armor rating, as Siddhi said, give them at least 1 point all over (except maybe on top), otherwise it will be treated as armor while unarmored on several surfaces, and very vulnerable.

Re: \"Garde\" (Gaurd) BN and \"Ehrengard\" (Honor Gaurd)Co
 

Um pretty sure that the Miniman should be the PAR67, the PAR70 is the M72A2. They are so similar in appearence that it is confusing, also, during basic sometimes recruits shot the par67 as we are (have) gotten rid of them.
The Par67 goes to the reserve units around 1980 and should be out of general use by 1994, although the joke is that 20 year old (stored) PAR67 is safer to fire then a 15 year old PAR70.

Puch G or Pinz 4 (with M2) were used in KoPoSiPo function, but uparmouring is a bit dicy, you're right. Maybe just give it a 1 frontal armour (for the shield)? pls? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

The Jäger company did not have engineers, but the BN often did - thanks for pointing that out. It is the 4th platoon of the S-Kompanie (KU-K), just 3 engineer groups (Satchel and Claymore) with the standard command section, as listed.

The Gaurd Support company (for the BN) prolly has a engineer platoon as well, but we did not cover that anyway. The HONOUR GAURD company, which these days rotates (used to be 4.Co.) had an enginner group/detachment/platoon (around 20-30 guys IIRC) that had a very strange job indeed...

On vision, again good point, from say 1985 ALL ACTIVE (not landwehr, we will get there) squads had 1, sometimes more, Starlight Scopes (vision 10?15?20? no idea). The snipers in the active units all had them, however on the "normal" sniper rifles SSG-69. The "heavy" snipers in the honour gaurd might have had the SSG-69 or somethign else (i am going with something else) but definetly had full NVGs, as did all HOUNOUR GAURD platoons

Re: \"Garde\" (Gaurd) BN and \"Ehrengard\" (Honor Gaurd)Co
 

Btw regarding intergrated CG into squad, very rare as SOP for both LAW and CG is to fire two at a target, b/c if you miss things get a bit hot...the new BH2010 is putting the CG into the squad, which pissed people off, because they don`t get the changed requirements in austria (the CG really used here in FIBUA.

Oh, and both the PAR67 and PAR70 are known as the "anklopfgerät" ("tank doorbell"...as in only good for attracting unwanted attention, bit unfair really)

Re: \"Garde\" (Gaurd) BN and \"Ehrengard\" (Honor Gaur
 

You mean both CGs in a platoon would generally be fired at the same target simultaneously?
If so, one option (that would severely restrict operations) would be to fit both weapons together in an 8-men AT team. That plus putting one sniper inside the command squad as Shan said would leave room for the trucks and the motor Jäger platoon would fit the slots available.
This solution lacks elegance if you ask me. I've used it for recent French mech platoons and it doesn't work that well compared to two separate AT units (whether stand-alone or in a squad).No can do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
From the Player Info.txt help file:Units with any 1 armor point on whichever side will always be considered armor, will be fired at with AP/Sabot/HEAT rounds and if hit and penetrated will blow up just like any other armored unit, instead of going with the crew-killing routine of unarmored units.
If that's armored trucks you're after, give them 1 armor all over. If it's just an unarmored truck with a gun shield, keep 0 all over, anyway the gun shield doesn't provide that much coverage in the first place, in regard of the whole vehicle.

On vision, rifle-mounted starlight scopes should give you 5-10 or so, correct me if you have figures of night-fighting range. IDK what is the convention about rifle squads with one only NV device for the whole squad.

Vehicles...
 

I need to know how many we need in Jaeger company... going by a headcound won't do, but anyway: 1 Jaeger platoon has 5+3x8+2x4+3+2x1 = 42 men so far... by the way - in the old OOB some Rifle squads have 8 men, some have 10... standard would be 8 I guess, should 10 men squads be deleted?

Then we have the heavy platoon minus detachments - to be called sJgZg(-) or ?? - with 1x3 men ZgTrp (doubtful usefulness, better drop them) and 2x 4 men 81mm mortar teams and a single mortar per team - Siddhi, you proposed 6 men, should I change it to 6? - totalling between 8 (now, minus commander) and 15 men

Then the 'Support Platoon' - to be called Zugtrupp or how? - with 3x5men, very questionable use... and the KpKdt, with 8 men - my suggestion, as opposed to CO and XO with 4 each... but we probably reduce that to 6, as 8 men won't fit into a single light vehicle and we'd need Pinzgauer4x4 instead...

--> total headcount: 8 + 3x42 + ~15 + 15 = maximum: 164, minimum: around 140;

- so I figured we need around 10x Steyr 680 + 1 Haflinger + ~2-3 Pinzgauer 4x4 - that would again cover the maximum... or, if we have 1 Pinzgauer 4x4 per platoon, we could trade 3 trucks for Pinzgauers ---

These vehicles could be organized into 3 transport platoons with maybe even a small guard section for each... then we could also cancel the 'support' platoon and have a useful role for its men - as Siddhi said, protecting transports. The heavy platoon should retain its own vehicles, and the KpKdt has a detached vehicle as well.

Re: Vehicles...
 

Regarding these "support" sections (Zugtruppe?), what is their use supposed to be? Rear-guard protection of the support assets? Also what kit do they use and what is their training level? I guess they could be added for some purpose (say a separate "security platoon").

Regarding Jäger comapny support, how about using the existing Motor Mortar Section (formation #67) in the company TOE? Maybe giving it two trucks instead of one if we go for 6 men per team). That's in the case where the platoons have their own trucks, of course.
In the case of dismounted platoons with integral CG teams, each platoon needing 2 medium and 1 light truck, the company could do with one large transport platoon including 6 medium and 4 light trucks (the 4th light truck carries the mortar teams). Two utility vehicles (or one and a light truck, depending on the size given to the company command section) would have to be provided for the command section and the FO (optional IMHO).

Shan, regarding support sections added to transport platoons, consider that there will be instances where people will want to buy trucks without the additional infantry topping (if only because you have to carry those too). If you go for this organization, better put them in the Jäger formation but make the "transport platoon +infantry" non-buyable by giving it a nation code of 0.

Siddhi, is there any chance a Jäger company would get a double AT team serving, with a second six teams in the support platoon? If not at all, then there shouldn't be AT-equipped platoons and full support platoons available together.

Landwehr etc.
 

The "ZugTrupp" is the Platoon command section, not support, so the first unit of the platoon.

The Support platoon is the Company Heavy weapons platoon, called (then) "S-Zug" (Schwere Jäger - Heavy Jäger - because these boys can carry). The BN support is called "S-Kompanie".

The actual support sections of the company (resupply etc.) were represented as the three "support sections" after the CO and XO squads. As we agreed they can be removed.

I don't think there is a point in having an extra gaurd for the vehicles, as they are the drivers themselves. However, we could give the trucks an Stg-77 each http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

On "vision" IDK either...i would however give the squad the entire squad the rating, unless someone says otherwise.

The "Jäger 8" is the cornerstone of the Jäger and is always the same (you can make a nice little infantry formation called "schützenigel" - "rifle porcupine", star formation with the group commander in the middle), however for the Milita units (Landwehr) we will give them 10 men as these are "over-manned" units, with less NCOs and more infantry.

We will have to leave the CG squads teams seperate for the reasons you say.


"Landwehr" (Milita) Company
Gerenric local defense militia, there are a few "special" ones that we will get to. These guys are also going to take the role of the "Sicherungstruppen" (Security troops)
but not fortress troops
Exp:-3, Moral: 0

From 1979-85 two versions, "old" with Stg-58, MG-42, Miniman, "new" as with normal Jäger


1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)

3x „Jäger“ Platoon:
1 x Command Section: (5 men)
Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
3 x “Jäger” Squads ( 10 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (3), Grenade)
1 x Sniper SSG-69 (1 man)
1 x CG Team (as listed under Jäger)

1 x “Heavy Jäger” (S)Platoon:
1 x Command Section ( 3 men), normal class, Stg-77 (Stg-58) Pistol, Grenade
2 x "Pinoneer" (Engineer) Squads
2 x rPAK (106mm ATGs, OR 85mm ATGs)
2 x 81mm mortar teams (6 men)
2 x M2 AAHMG Teams


"Landwehr" (Milita) Platoon
As above, independant units for securing bridges etc.
Exp: -3 Moral: 0

1 x Command Section: (5 men)
Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
3 x “Jäger” Squads ( 10 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (3), Grenade)
1 AAHMG (m2 on lafette, mobile) (3 man)

Re: Vehicles...
 

Generally I am for the Company transport having a seperate "Company Transport" section if we cannot cover all the units organically. The problem is this is the real OOB (for that time) with already quite a few vehicles less (actual company strength of around 180), incl. all the commander's vehicles. Given the importance of playability I defer to (both of your) judgement on this - for PK's mod you have some of my info on advanced/alternative weapons systems anyway.

Another reason to have the company transport seperate is that the there should be a cateory for "civilian transport" in platoon strength, as on MOB every single civilian heavy vehicle (and motorcycles etc.) was to be drafted into the army (all truck owners to this day recieved on purchase of their vehicle "army marching orders" where to park their vehicle in emergency. This platoon or company sized unit should just be "civilian" or "mobilised tranport" and are only civilian vehicles, at, of course, a much reduced price compared to the army vehicles.

A friend recently admonished me for saying that the platoon frontage was 150m - while correct in some cases it is intended to be able to cover up to 400m of frontage in the "extended line" defence (this is not possible in SPMBT - in effect this a squad deployed on line, not a "continous line" o/c however). We will see how this becomes a problem with the "Fortress units" which played a vital role and were screened by infantry in trenches.

Jagdkamp!
 

"Jagdkampf"
The "Jagdkampf" units (not to be confused with the "Jagdkommando" Commando troops)were specilaly trained "local" milita soldiers that were part of specific defence territories that were categorised as "area defence zones", areas which were not defended by mobile (armored) troops but only by delaying forces that had two jobs: delay the enemy advance by harassement and, once occupied, combat the enemy via guerrilia war (for which a huge network of supply and shelter bunkers was built). Thus these units were dedicated "stay-behind" guerrilla force that in Europe can only be compared to the Norwegian Home Gaurd units. Their training level and motivation was comparativly high. Over 22 BNs of such infantry were could have been activated under 24hours.

Note: These untis were goupped in "Jagdkampf BNs" however would never deploy over a company at a time, and seldom even a platoon, hence the platoon formations are used. Also, due to variety of tasks, they sometimes used very interesting "ancient" equipment, if necassary.

All troops should be categorised either as scouts (due to their emphasis on concealment) or rangers

"Jagdkampf" Platoon (AT)
This represents a classic "spitzenbekämpfung" (spearhead delay") force. They would simply stop the reccon elements and force the unit to deploy, and then retire.
Here again, "old" and "new" units, as with "Landwehr"
Exp:0, Moral:+3

1 x Command Section: (5 men)
Stg-77, sniper rifle, Pistol, Grenade
3 x “Jäger” Squads ( 8 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (3), Grenade)
1 x Sniper SSG-69 (1 man)
2 x CG Teams

"Jagdkampf" Platoon (DA)
Core duty included direct-action missions against HQ units and as well as ambush functions. In this case, for "old" units, the Stg-59 was NOT taken as it was too heavy, instead, the M1 Carabine and together with the MP40 SMG (!)

1 x Command Section: (4 men)
Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
2 x "Jagdkampf" Squads (8 men) NEW: Stg-77, MPi-69 (SMG)/ OLD: m1 carabine, MP40 SMG, BOTH LAW (3), Satchel Charge
2 x "Jagdkampf Fireteam" Squads (4 men) (2x MG-72/42, Stg-77, gernade)
2 x CG Teams
2 x Sniper

"Jagdkampf" Scout
Needs to be included simply b/c other countries seem to have something similar.
Exp:0, Moral:+3

1x "Jagdkampf Scout" Section (3 men), Stg-77, Sniper rifle, grenade PLUS RADIO

"Jagdkampf" Observation bunker
Exp:0, Moral:+3
These poor sods got extremly well camoflogued 2-man bunkers that were in effect invisble and - given that they were supposed to stay there for many days at a time, miserable.

1x "hidden observation bunker" tbd(2 men), Stg-77, gernade, radio, POSSIBLY FO function, tbd

I have debated adding a single 81mm motor, as was often the case, however worry about ye old gameplay. Howeve they were very important, so maye we should add a "Jagdkampf" 81mm motor unit as well (independant)

Re: Jagdkamp!
 

We'll have to see what unit classes to use. Rangers get hand-to-hand combat bonus apparently. "Irregulars" class can be used too for the DA sections, the result could be the same.

IDK which exp/morale ratings these guys should get. As far as I've understood, they are kind of "elite reserve" local militia? IMHO and to put it short, they should get slightly less experience (say -3,-5) but slightly more morale, on account of being locally-mobilized defences, certainly quite eager to defend their own land and home.

For the observation bunkers, probably something like the Vietnamese spider holes (minus sniper rifles), so I'd say a fortification with size 0, maybe copied as a FO unit with an X3 radio code?
BTW, where are these 81mm mortars you hesitated about supposed to go? In Jagdkampf platoons?

Jaegerkompanie added...
 

Warning: this is intended for R&D only, basically for Siddhi, Plasmakrab and me... everyone else, download at your own risk! I recommend installing it in the custom OOB folder.

Guys,

I worked this over many times and this is the result: The modified Jaegerkompanie, 1/1979-12/2004. I added the new units and formations at the end of the existing OOB to make it more obvious. I changed in-and out of service dates for the old Jaeger formations to avoid confusion but there are still some overlaps - mid-80s till 90s, however, should be fine.
I had to play around with using different unit classes for the company commander, platoon commander and support platoon commander but now it should work out that every platoon and company has the right commander.

I got 3 versions now: Jaegerkompanie - without transports, Jaegerkompanie(mot) and Jaegerkompanie(mot)* - the latter has its 12.7mm MGs mounted on the transport platoons' Pinzgauers as proposed. Be careful to use the one with sMG - I also added one with a MG74 but that may find some use later for the reconnaissance units. I crewed them up with 3 men but added no armor or other things - maybe I should add a radio though, will do so later.

I made couple of changes that appeared to be practical to me - the mot. support platoon (sJgZg mot) now got 2 Haflinger and 2 trucks instead of 1 Haflinger, 1 Pinzgauer 4x4 and 2 trucks - it is over-supplied with transports anyway and still is now... you have the luxury to be able to have each of its 4 units carried by its own vehicle...

Questions @Siddi + other changes made:
- Names ??
- mortar squads: 1 mortar per squad? - needs 6 men as u said or can we do with 4 as is?
- MPi69: appears as sidearm of several support units but was AFAIK never used as such, only for Jagdkommando - I therefore started exchanging it for StGs
- Rocket Launcher: 2 versions are in the game - 130mm and 128mm - phased out long ago but when? Correct designation?
- Size of A/T teams: generally was 0 for 2-man teams but for our 4-man team I changed it to 1
- gradual improvement of vision, fire control and rangefinder ratings of observers (now called BeobTrp) and snipers?
- PzF3 appears in our OOB from 1990 I think... that sounds like a joke, I was trained how to use Miniman in the late 90s...
- I marked several units that should probably be deletedwith a "-" before their name and partly re-classed them to make them unusable - such as Centurion tanks, etc
- introduction of cluster ammo for artillery? Phasing-out dates for old artillery weapons?
- GHN45 will need to be eliminated and changed for M-109 as off-map artillery
- made a couple of other changes, will keep a record on them, but no need to discuss now


Alright, Siddhi please check it out and tell me if I can go on like this! It took some time to get used to the Mobhack but now I am on it and could do the other units pretty easily as well...

Shan (Shanliang de Shan--- wo bu shi nege 'Da Shan'... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

Re: Jagdkamp!
 

well they prolly should not have "hand to hand" bonus, but should be less "visible", therefore perhaps all as "scout" class?

i'm not sure about giving them any malus on experience, as they really were "elite reserves" in a way, spent most of their active army time purly training and had a special rather long "jagdkampf" education. also were by far the most active in their reserve training (they also, at least some of them, had their rifles and ammo at home, unique in the austrian army). We could give them a +5 in moral, but i would do more then that, i would not give them any subtraction on experience.

the "observation bunkers" exist IIRC in the swedish(?) ORBAT, we can adapt them. spider hole would be inaccurate as it is not fortified.

the 81mm motors were sometimes attached to the jadkampf units, primarily to provide supressing fire/illumination as well as smoke cover. however adding them makes them to powerful, i would make a seperate section "jagdjkampf motor team" and leave it at that.

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

Excellent Shan, PK please have a look, I will be unable to do so until sunday at the earliest (and with luck) but you have given enough info.

your changes and formations seem completly sensible FMPOV, the emphasis should be on playability and it looks like you have done that.

- names: i would keep it in english as IIRC that is the convention
- motor squad: use the game default in this case instead, however if there is difference in the RoF for having 6 instead of 4 men please keep it at 6 (there would be a reason for that number after all)
- MPi69: correct, except for "Jagdkampf" milita units.
- MRL: the (czech) 130mm was replaced by the austrian Styer 680M3 128mm, my guess is around 1980. The last 680s were taken out of service when the M-109A2/A3 (Ö) were introduced, so say 1994.
size of AT teams: dunno if i agree, the extra guys are purly ammo carriers who would be flat on the ground, should not add to the size of the unit
- PzF3 is a joke, shouldn't be there. BTW if you shot the PAR70 as i persume you did that is the LAW, not miniman, the simple test is if you shot the training rocket(you know the tracer-like thing) or the 9mm tracer bullet: you cannot fire the tracer-trainng rocket from the miniman so it was the LAW - the "cadre" very often have no idea what the international designations are and often get it confused http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif the miniman anyway should have been long gone by then (introduced in 1966)
- can't comment on this as i will not be able to check the OOB for a bit, you a rigtht o/c about centurion, NO cluster ammo however (sadly). old arty weapons are nearlly all in storage and were not sold (very low storage costs), i would not remove them from the OOB at all, just lower price.

sounds great! have fun with the "jagdkampf" - we`re going to need some more pictures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

btw: wo renishi "da shan" - ta shi yi wei ka-na-da de ren, jiao "mark roswell" gen zhen de hao war http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

Ok,

I'll continue like that - and find a solution for the names as well, I'll have a look at other OOBs for comparison.

- I believe we must have 155mm cluster ammo, but some artillery guys once told me that they are never fired in practice because they r so devastating (which means: too expensive ;-))... are you sure was have none?
- So we got no other light A/T weapons until today, no PzF3 or anything like that at all? Let's build some Molotovs then, in case the Russians are coming... hehe, would be fun to equip our infantry in the game with Molotovs from 2004 onwards...
- We did use the 9mm tracer practice bullets and you are right, cadre often has no idea about international designations but we had some fanatics who did... so how's the Miniman alled internally and until when should it be kept available?

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

On unit classes:

We'll run out of infantry unit classes if I continue establishing specialized units all the time - and as the main deal is to have reduced exp and/or morale, but weapons remain the same, it will do to use the normal Jaeger squads wherever possible. The problems arise with the specialized forces, using M1 carbine and MP-40 (until when? 1979 would make sense - StG77 introduction...) - if I use the same class for them as well, then the players will end up having mabe 15 different Jaeger squads to choose from, including those Jagdkampf units that should not be part of regular formations... and if you buy a company, you'll have to look at the platoons first and then remember to choose the correct one... quite annoying, so I'll try to avoid that an probably have to re-organize a lot.

Same is true for the platoon command squad (and the company commander)- Siddhi said a compromise would be to give it a sniper rifle(or maybe some F/C and/or vision rating), but I managed to free up space in the Jaeger platoons to keep both snipers independent - this, however, renders this 6-man squad very vulnerable - well, maybe a good thing, as it should not be used in close combat anyway.

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

clusterammo: you're right, I checked (didn't think we have it!) m84/155mm, so should be included.

you know, if you did fire the 9mm then it was the PAR67 (same here), but i was told then and just recently again that "for combat" we used the m72, not for practice, as it uses a rocket and not a tracer round, i'm getting confused - sometimes you cannot even trust a general staff officer...anyway PAR67 was miniman so PAR70 has to be the LAW.

molotvs: i also forgot them, totally vital and even part of training for the "jagdkampf" boys, maybe instead of the satchel charges for the "old Jagdkampf" units (m1)

The "Jagdkampf" units should always have the option for using the "old" equipment (until 1996, last such unit disbanded IIRC, but make it 200x if easier)because of the huge amount of such equipment in storage (enough for 1 million men...)and simply b/c the caches/bunkers/depots used were all set up 1972-1984 (roughly).

Can't comment on the class issue, sure you can do it better then me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

Regarding the MRL:
According to R. M. Urrisk, the launchers were put on Steyr 680 in 1972, and rebarrelled for Yugoslavian 128mm rockets from 1988-1989.

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

Guys

Please could you take this to private email, and post the final result only.

These forums are for game support and not for online blow-by-blow development of somebody's OOB project. That you should do yourselves away from this forum.


Cheers
Andy

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

AMX: thanks for the input

Andy, the reason we are doing it this way is not only for ease of communication but also to be open to other contributions, both in terms of SPMBT gameplay as well as accuracy- which is what I understand is the core idea of this forum, i.e. "the WinSPMBT community"

This is also not "someone’s OOB project" (although Plasmakrab will use it for his mod) but an attempt to be able to provide you (the developers) with a more accurate OOB and therefore a more enjoyable game. Notice nobody is talking about modding rifle values etc but OOBs, as has been done repeatedly in other threads.

In effect this is a for-free service provided for your fans to help develop your product. I was under the impression that such contributions were welcome - I would personally would not invest the time unless I believed that at least in principle CammoWorkshop (and therefore Shrapnelgames)would be interested in adopting this.

If instead you are worried about security implications; all information is, in effect, public. There are NO security implications - I am actually a bona fida working member of a national security institution and you can be sure I would not post information that I have even with the slightest of doubts as to classification. The only thing I worry about is the amount of office time I have invested in this.

If there are other reasons why our activity here is unwelcome it would be nice if you could tell us why.

Otherwise I have a difficulty understanding why such enthusiasm on part of your community is unwelcome on your forums - if Tim Brooks has no interest in our passion for this then clearly I've gotten something wrong and all of this has been just been a waste of time.

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

Contributions are fine, but these fora are for completed OOB projects.

We do not do on-line OOB development here - that you can do offline amongst yourselves. Space is not limitless, and we really have absolutely no need for every incrementally modified OOB file and detailed discussion document between yourselves in these support forums. Please take that to email between yourselves (there is a PM system for you all to swap emails etc.).

By all means - whenever you have a finished OOB to post, do so. Some of the other user community might be interested.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

If "space" is really the issue, would it be sufficent not to upload any files until there is a finished product? Hard to imagine text taking up that much space - there is little activity on these forums anyway. PM and email both have the disadvantage of not allowing contributions from outside the group, and these already have been useful.

Re: Jaegerkompanie added...
 

You have been told what these forums are for, several times - please abide by that. I'm not going into a circular argument here.

Andy