OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Kind of an interesting read for you Astronomical types.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258540,00.html

"Instead of finding a whole range, we found nearly all of the black holes are either naked or covered by a dense veil of gas," said Ryan Hickox of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "Very few are in between, which makes us question how well we know the environment around these black holes."

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

But... But... that only makes sense...


They're giant vacuums (Shush.). New ones would have gas, sure... But the older ones would be bare because they suck everything into them.

BTW: Link no es aqui.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

No offense atrocities, but fox news isn't that great of source for science news and information.

http://space.com/scienceastronomy/07...ack_holes.html

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Correction, Fox news isn't a source for ANY kind of information.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

You liberals really have it in for Fox don't you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

The article was based off of an AP story so I think it might be worth reading.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Considering there have been numerous cases where Fox has knowingly asked their reporters to lie and fires those who don't.... Yeah I'd say I have a problem with Fox.

And Fox News "bases" all there stories on something, but that's like saying the Neverending story is "based" off real life. It's technically true because a portion of it is true.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

All of the major news outlets are biased.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Everything is biased.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Very true because all news stations are trying for ratings, but on the scale it goes something like this:


No bias<-------------------------------------------------> Where's the truth

Fox News leaves that "where's the truth" line in the dust.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

I could say the same about CNN, its a point of view. I'm not saying I support either, because I don't. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

They just wanted to say "naked" while not understanding anything about the meaning in context.

The nakedness of a black hole has absolutely nothing to to with the amount of gas around it, but everything to do with the event horizon.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Do any of you believe that black holes are portals to another realms? I do not. I believe anything that enters a BH is crushed into nothingness.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

There is a difference between 'bias' in the sense of putting a spin on things that you like or don't like but still reporting them vs. making [censored] up to suit your political agenda. Fox does indeed literally lie to promote their chosen cause -- the Republican party. Most recent slimy tactics:

1) Before the 2006 elections they sneakily tried to make people think that Foley was a Democrat, and never acknowledged their subterfuge even when caught and called out.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3570
"INCREDIBLE! FOX 'NEWS' LABELS FOLEY AS DEM DURING O'REILLY FACTOR!"

http://wonkette.com/politics/pagefuc...res-205075.php
Desperate Times, Desperate Measures

2) Once the election was lost they desperately tried to show that the 'terrorists' were celebrating over the Democratic victory -- so desperate that a senior VP in the news division sent out a memo explicitly calling for his reporters to find such celebrations or anything that could be interpreted as such. And it was leaked.

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/1...democrats-win/
Fox News memo: Look out for jihadis celebrating Democrats’ win

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ge...w_b_34251.html
Fox News: They Distort, We Deride

3) They simply made up a story that Obama had attended a radical Islamic school when he lived as a child in Indonesia. Other news agencies simply investigated -- sent someone to see the school he attended. It was an ordinary secular state-run school. No acknowledgement of this 'mistake' either. Just silence after exposure.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/
CNN debunks false report about Obama

4) Oh, except that they then claimed that the story about Obama had come from Hilary Clinton's campaign staff. Blatantly trying to stir up strife within the Democratic party.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/
CNN debunks false report about Obama
(Yes, same story debunks both claims)

And you still want to claim that Faux News is a news organization???

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Baron, they all lie. NBC has been caught and so has CBS, CNN, and ABC. ALL news organizations lie, they also make mistakes, and from time to time they have even made some huge *** whoopers and been called to carpet for them. Enough please. This is a free nation, if you don't like Fox, don't watch. Most of us are adult enough to make decisions for ourselves and are quite good at faretting out BS from fact. I myself won't watch NBC news at all. I prefer ABC and Fox, but mostly ABC.


Back on Topic:
So what would happen if a Black hole, say a very small one about the size of a pin head, came into contact with our planet?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

This is true, but I think we severely disagree on the magnitude. In other words FOX goes above and beyond.


It wouldn't even get that close before the gravitation would mess everything up enough that all life would be dead.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Just think, all we know about black holes is that we don't really know crap. In fact there is so much about the universe that we don't know that to even think we know the smallest fraction of what can be known is a horribly arrogant of us.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

The saying goes the more you learn the less you know. That doesn't mean we don't know anything and that doesn't mean that we can't try to learn. There are some items that are beyond our present reach, but that doesn't mean they will be forever. I'm somewhat confused as to what you're trying to say.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is so much to learn that any one who thinks they know it all don't really know crap.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Of course no one knows everything. Have you honestly met someone who thinks they do?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

I just don't understand the need, even if you agree that they all 'misrepresent'/skew the truth, to keep pushing that somehow Fox News is worse. that the company line?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

As for black holes...

"Keeton, a member of Rutgers' department of physics and astronomy, said it couldn't happen. He told The Chronicle that a tiny black hole probably could suck up only a few atoms at a time.

Yet it might not go unnoticed. If a black hole as massive as an asteroid -- thousands of tons -- passes through a room, there would be a subtle gravitational tug. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGFHJBDE31.DTL

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

The difference is that when other news organizations are caught reporting falsehoods, they at least have the decency to put out corrections. Fox makes a habit of ignoring any mistakes in their reporting. In that, they act more like a propaganda machine than an institution with any journalistic integrity.

As for the black hole... that depends. Are you saying the size of a pin head is the size of the event horizon, or the volume containing all the mass? If the former, it would almost certainly evaporate due to Hawking radiation. If the latter, depends on the starting mass, but it probably would also evaporate.

If a black hole were somehow created on the surface of Earth, it wouldn't last long. If it was created on Earth, then by definition it would need to have a mass much less than that of Earth, and so it will have a gravitic pull much less than that of Earth. If it doesn't have the dominant force, it will not consume much mass, and will evaporate.

If the black hole came from outside the solar system, then depending on the mass, and how close it passes by, it could either knock us into a different orbit, or take out a chunk of the planet approximately the size of the event horizon. Then it would continue to bypass us and either get caught up in the sun or exit the solar system.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Can you give a reference to a case where any other major news network than Fox (ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.) tried to represent a politician caught in a scandal as belonging to a different party? And then refused to acknowledge the "mistake" when caught?

Can you give a reference to a case where any other major news network than Fox (ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.) made an unfounded claim that a major 'rising star' politician had some sort of radical (not even necessarily 'terrorist') training/indoctrination in his background? And then refused to acknowledge the "mistake" when caught?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

On further reflection, this isn't the place for this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

FNC did do a pseudo retraction, which should have been an apology for bad journalism.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/01/22/...assa_claim.php

What is interesting is the claim is based off of the Washington Times. It looks like the show that it occurred on it like a Good Morning America or something, I haven't seen it.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

On further reflection, this isn't the place for this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But this is a thread about black holes...

What exactly is nothing? Is energy something? I'd imagine that matter is broken down as much as possible by the gravity. Perhaps to the most fundamental state/particle.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

More important than size, is mass.

A hole with an event horizon with radius 0.1mm would be 1% of Earth's mass.
That would be a pretty noticable gravitational pull.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...blkhol.html#c2

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Does this mean Black holes can travel thru space like a comet?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Anything can travel through space like a comet, given the right orbit.

Mind, if a black hole or star does that, its likely to get a bit hairy on any planets in the same system..

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Yes. As do all solar bodies, including our sun. Our galaxy, like most galaxies, is in a constant state of motion. The solar bodies within it are also moving about. Galaxies within the universe are all moving about and colliding, mingling, and uniting also.

The unviverse is not static. It is in constant motion that is most noticable over millions of years; just as evolution of species on Earth is observed.

-Wade

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Fyron knows everything but he won't admit it.

Does that count?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Colliding, not really. More merging. I read somewhere (not sure where) that when the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies merge, there should be something like 4 actual collisions between stellar objects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif After all, galaxies are mostly just space, which is just...space. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Strangely enough, people are mostly empty space to.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

If you goto the atomic scale, then yes most everything is empty space.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

I always found it interesting that there is an 'infinite' amount of space between any 2 particles. .01m,.001,.0000001,.0000000000000000000001 and so on

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

The "mass media" collectively aren't a very good source for science information. It's quite well-known that the more you personally understand about a topic, the more flawed any news reporting on that subject is going to look to you. I'm a conservative, and I still consider Fox News an embarassment to both journalism and conservatism.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

That is anything but infinite, AegisX.

Just because there are an infinite number of points on a line dosen't mean anything about distances.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

What, if anything, would be considered an opposite of a black hole? If gravity is so powerful that it can even bend light, then how could it be countered? Anti-Gravity? Just curious about this, if something like anti-gravity could be created, and when it comes into contact with gravity, say that of a black hole, what kind of energy do you think it would produce? Could it produce anti-matter? Could any energy, if any is created at all, be harvested and used for our benefit?

And what about artificial gravity? We know we can simulate gravity with centrifugal force, but that really isn't a practical means by any definition for the kind of gravity we would need to have if we are ever to honestly try and explore the stars.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Maybe it is just a math property? You can keep halving the distance.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Getting really right down to it; molecules, atoms, protons/electrons/neutrons, quarks, String Theory(energy wave lengths); matter is just "organized energy".

We are made of the stuff of stars. I miss Carl Sagan of the 'Cosmos' series.

-Wade

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Xeno's paradox. But actually you can't keep halving the distance. You eventually hit a Plank (sp) length, which is as far as we can tell as small as things can get.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Even if space is a continuum, you can travel half the distance in half the time.
Total time taken is finite.

Just because you're marking an infinite number of points (an infinite subset of the points on a line) dosen't change anything.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

A "white hole".

Unfortunately, it appears to be a purely mathematical construct that can't exist in the real world.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

That was my initial reaction to the question too, but I haven't "honestly met" Fyron, so I had to leave it be.

Funny though!

TT

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

I do not see something spectacular in this news. Probably the gas is not as much as a torus, but more like a very slim disk. Either watched from above we see the black hole "naked" (so every kind of radiation reaches us) or we see it from the exact side of the disk (thus the radiation gets absorbed). This only partially explains it, as it very unlikely that we see almost half of the black holes from the side. Another possibility is that only the nearest parts form such a disk while the other gas is like a sphere around the center black hole (which is very likely rotating). Of course there can be anything else in between. Since the do not name their sources, it is hard to say if they left out any important information to make it more easy for the reader. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Black holes are quite simple objects (but you can write very much about them), if viewed from the outside (the inside we cannot see, so we can only assume what is going on). You can describe a black hole with only a few parameters: its mass, its electric charge and its rotation.

The normal non-rotating black hole is a perfect sphere, despite the form of any object which was the cause (Even a cubic star would create an exact spheric black hole). This only applies to the event horizon (or Schwarzschild radius), the singularity inside the black hole could be of any shape.
The rotating black hole is a spheroid, similar to earth or sun. It is a bit more complicated as the event horizon is not identical to the ergosphere created by this black hole.

The event horizon is the actual "size" of the black hole. Everything inside can never get to the outside again and will eventually be destroyed in the singularity.
The event horizon can never get smaller (except.. see below). If two black holes merge, the mass of the newly created black hole is smaller than the sum of both masses of the old black holes. The "missing" mass have become energy or gravitational waves. But the overall surface of the newly created hole (which is exactly the event horizon) is bigger than the sum of the surfaces of the merged black holes.

The Hawking radiation is a quantummechanical effect, caused by vacuum fluctations (These must exist because of the uncertainty principle by Heisenberg). If such a fluctuation is big enough and happens near enough to the event horizon, a pair of "virtual particles" can be become real ones (Usually both virtual particles annihilate after a very very short time). But if one particle gets caught by the black hole and the other moves away from it, it seems for people outside that the black hole emitted radiation.
If you look closer at this you will see, that this radiation is exactly that of a "black body". A strange effect is that the smaller a black hole is, the hotter it gets, thus radiating even more.

Btw, if you are unsure about the size: our sun would create a black hole with a Schwarzschild radius of about 3km (now the sun has a diameter of about 1.4 Million km). The earth would create a black hole with a Schwarzschild radius of 9mm.

What happens if a very small black hole of the size of an atomic nucleus would fly through the earth? Nothing probably. It would just fly through and go away.

And what happens if you would jump into a black hole? That depends on the size. If it is big enough you won't even notice that you are now inside the event horizon. If it is a smaller black hole you will get ripped to pieces long before you even reach the event horizon. The reason is the same as for ebb and flood: intertidal forces. You get streched from feet to head and get queezed perpendicularly to it. Not a fun death, i suppose.

White holes and worm holes are valid solutions of the Einstein field equations. But that does not mean they will exist in the "real world". Not every solution of a mathematical problem can be applied to the real world. You probably know this from school where you sometimes get a positive and negative solution from a calculation (Example: the Pythagorean theorem: a²+b²=c² - if you have a with 3 and b with 4 - then valid solutions for c are 5 and -5. But since there are no negative lengths, you just discard it.)

There are many more things to say, but i guess i already talked too much to give you a headache. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9kpgc4td

There is no such thing as black holes. They are artifical mathmatical constructs with no basis in reality. There is not one shread of concrete evidence to prove the existance of black holes. Gravity is the weak force in the universe.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Why should that website be considered an authority on the subject?

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

If gravity is so weak, then why is it so fundamental? We cannot see it, but we can see its effects. I would say that someone who considers gravity a weak force in the universe falls into the category that I mentioned in one of my previous posts.... the one that states people who think they know everything don't. There is so much about the universe that we don't know that for any one to make any definitive conclusions about anything would be a naivety of epic proportions.

Re: OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory
 

Ummmmm...I'm afraid to say that the vast majority of the scientific/astronomical community (scientists, no less) disagree with you and that site. There is in fact a veritable mountain of evidence that supports the existence of black holes; to say they do not exist in the face of that much evidence is like saying the Sun orbits the Earth, and that very same Earth is flat.