Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Disdvantages:
- Insane units preferable your own are affected as its based on your dominion
- Death dominion, usually requires growth3 scale also to feed your freespawns
- Upkeep for a lot of chaff

Advantages:
- Spawning void creatures where your dominion spreads
- Probably still good gem income in home province and powerful mages in LA, what is rare.
- Multiple Prophets

Why do i get the feeling i am still better off with MA Ryleh?


2 Changes would make them more playable and fun:

1. Freespawns should not cost upkeep. How should they use it? They are controlled by the void and insane, and it really hurts economy of Ryleh a lot, more so than just zealots for Ashen Empire through a luck event. Freespawns are very weak chaff too.

2. Starspawns and all ilithids should never get insane by the Dreamland dominion. Again, it does not make sense, they are not from this world and are more like void creatures themselves with a high mind.
Insaneness is more a disadvantage for Ryleh, it affects mainly you, cause it affects your dominion and that is if course in your lands not in the enemy land. Playing with low dominion is not a solution. When other nations can always have a high dominion to drive yours out. So, time to give them more advantages cause the disadvantages are clearly bigger right now. Insaneness just is a hassle and load of work -e.g. to put back some researchers on research- after they get insane, they cancel prior orders too.

I think at least those 2 changes should be quickly applied to them to make them more playable and fun.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I remember someone noticing earlier that insane units can declare themselves prophet. Perhaps this command could be tied to luck somehow.

It'd be awesome to have a whole army of prophetic insane people spreading your awful dominion all over the map.

Jazzepi

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Yes, thanks for the hint, i did forget to mention that advantage. Thats definatly irritating to the other player at least. However more prophets do not acummulate more dominion points it seems. They truly spread more dominion? Never tested it precisely.

Still very annyoing to have many free spawns to pay for and they eat a lot too. Order3 and postive growth scales seems always to be required.

Maybe Devs can make it so that insane own commanders do not forget their prior orders after they get back their sanity, its a hassle to give them each other round all the same orders. Especially mean researchers here. Ryleh also needs a lot of bag of wines, meaning nature path and gems to feed their troops and ilithid army or they quickly starve. Problem here, they do not have any nature path mages, so you have to get them on a land province where they are common as recruits. Or use Slave mage, but they seem not to get often nature magic.

Still, the upkeep and supply demands for freespawns is somewhat depressing as they really cost and eat a lot as they spawn in huge numbers after a while.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

You can fix a lot of this via modding. Personally I think freespawns with very low upkeep would be somewhat overpowering, but each to their own.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

They still eat a lot hardly overpowered. You played with them? Ryleh freespawns are incredible weak, its not like with Ashen Empire where you get better freespawns with good morale. And a lot of aquatic freespawns won't help much, just drain upkeep. + no easy way to kill them off except pillaging a province and let them starve to death. The freespawn for Ryleh are just meat shields and are here to protect your Ilithid artillery. They do not work on their own. I play this game with a friend with indie strenght9 on 100+ provinces maps.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I have never played Ryleh but could you not take misfortune 3 and then use up the freespawns on the rebellions you get or is misfortune a very bad idea with Ryleh?

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Missfortune seems always a bad idea, its really the least thing i pick. You don't get heroes and no gem events, your temples and laboratories are going to be razed by raze events. But i never tried missfortune3 with Ryleh, iam scarred by missfortune3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif The maps i play are not big and my dominion is usually high set. I do that with BF ulm theme where i can have fortunetellers, but rather prefere good events that give additional gold and gems.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Taking misfortune is a bad idea when your going to end up with very small population...

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I do not think LA R'lyeh are as terrible as you say. I have played them in one MP so far and I thought people would die off to fast for national armies to matter much, which was a terrible mistake.

R'lyeh dominion do kill off people but at a far slower rate then Ashen Empire. My test show that dominion kills about 0.1% per step. Each step on growth/death is 0.2%. So for the price of slowly killing your pop you get free chaff with very low upkeep. My test showed that upkeep is about 1 gold for each 20 free spawns. That is very low upkeep. Upkeep for most troops are 2 gold for 3 units, and 1 gold for 2 militia.

Also your illithids are resistant to insanity. They do get insane but not as much as other commanders. My tests also show that your god seem to be immune to insanity.

In general LA R'lyeh should be played like MA R'lyeh, just that later on you should stop building lobo guards when you have enough free spawns.

A build that could work for R'lyeh is
Wyrm E3
Dominion 10
order 3
sloth 3
cold 3
growth 3
misfortune 1
magic 1

growth 1/fortune 1 could also work. This build is to assure fast expansion. If there is plenty of water, then a dormant god with order 3, fortune 3 and lower dominion should work fine.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

The Dreamlands freespawns have a gold cost of 1, some of them may have gold cost of 2. That means that in general every 15 freespawn costs 1 upkeep. It cannot get cheaper than that and still have upkeep.

Supply multipliers can be adjusted on a per game basis from the game options unless I remember wrong, and in any case it can be adjusted via mod so that you do not run out of supplies.

I do not see a need to alter LE R'lyeh in the manner suggested, because the request seems to stem from a particular type of game and the parameters probably do not apply universally.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Just compare it to MA Ryleh, the insanity hits most of the time your own units. Insanity hits your own commanders, while ilithids are a bit resistent they get hit too. Its just a big hassle to play. Each round giving insane commanders of previous turns the same old orders back.

Now with MA Ryleh we do not have that. Also no need to take growth scales. Better control over upkeep. Just 1 gold per 15 unit? Its still too much. Cause you will have a lot of units with dom10. Play with lower dominion and there won't be that many. You will have a problem to build expensive castles too.

Oh, i am sure you can win with them, but better compare it to MA Ryleh and how much hassle it is to control them in LE compared to MA.

This is not a thread how to play LE Ryleh, btw. I am against upkeep for freespawns coming in such huge numbers in a high dominion, resulting in no control over your finances. Again cannot imagine how thematically those highly insane hybrids would use gold anyways, cause then soulless and longdead should be paid too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Ryleh EA needs a boost alot more then LA..

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Aren't the starspawn illithids immune to insanity? IIRC it's only the regular non-magical commander who gets affected.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I agree that LA it's a big hassle to micromanage, much like LA Ermor. You could mod a version of LA Ryleh which domspawns via units (domsummon) and doesn't have the insanity effects. That way if you didn't want any free spawns you could just avoid the units that make them, and you'd be free of insanity too.

Wouldn't be too hard to make a nation like that.

But for some reason people seem dead set against actually modding stuff. Maybe because it's 'unofficial', maybe because they enjoy complaining too much to try and fix it themselves.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Starspawns are only resistent not immune to insanity.

-----------------------------------------------------

Scale Design:

Cause the freespawns cost "insane" amounts of upkeep over time as you will have some hundreds with more provinces and high dominion quite fast -getting over 1000 gold for upkeep in no time is easy- you cannot afford negativ scales.

You NEED order3, growth3(or they starve for sure), and no cold or heat scales like its possible in ma Rlyeh. You want your freespawns on land so they can attack most nations, with cold3 they would starve and you cannot effort the gold income hit as easily as with MA Ryleh. If those freespawns would not cost gold upkeep it would be possible to build more castles for supplies, though.

Removing upkeep for freespawns is required and a good thing, people.
-------------------------------------------
Whats bad on early age Ryleh? Afaik bankruptcy and the problem of starving is non-existend there.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Well, playing a whole mod is a different concern. I play that if i want more changes and unusual changes changing the game expierence completely.

I ask for a fix and i do not want to play mod what should be fixed in the first place. Why a mod when i just want to see no upkeepf on LE Ryleh spawns? It should be rather offcial too.

No brainer so to say.

You compared LE Ryleh to Ashen Empire, while its a hassle to control the freespawns in both nations, in AshenEmpire they do not get insane and do not cost any supplies or upkeep. Imagine AshenEmpire with insane units that also cost supplies and upkeep and probably lower morale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Instant game over in a few turns. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

You have not really been asking for a fix to a problem here. You have been demanding that a feature of the game be changed to match your personal preferences and play style, which is an altogether different thing.

The developers might not share your point of view. If it is their vision that Late Era R'lyeh should work the way it does now, it is going to stay that way and no amount of requests, wishes, demands and stamping of feet is going to change that.

In which case you have the option of not playing it or modding it to suit your own preferences.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I know all that thanks. Why do you need to feel to post so much education lines? I would hear convincing arguments against it or not. If they are implemented is not my choice at all. But i can post my thoughts of course.

They may have not paid as much attention to that particular issue as they have a lot of other work too. So your statements are just assumptions.

So far, i haven't read any convincing arguments against my suggestions.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

It isn't an assumption to say that if the devs want it working like X they aren't going to change it to Y just because no-one felt like arguing a point with you.

I've only played LA Ryleh once and I found the micromanaging fairly annoying; same deal with LA Ermor. Some people don't find it as annoying. Some people are entirely happy to adjust tax rates themselves, script complex spell combos, work out range and fatigue values exactly, micromanage a super-efficient blood economy etc. I'm not one of those people.

You think this needs to be 'fixed' to the way you'd prefer it. So far no-one else seems that bothered about it. Why would the devs change something to suit one player? They included such user friendly modding to keep people who'd like to make small changes to the game happy.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people suggesting changes. But when you start saying it needs to be 'fixed' because it isn't the way /you/ like it, or the way /you/ would have done things,... you're going to piss people off. Frankly, anyone who flat out refuses to try making a mod to fix this stuff themselves can't really care that much about the issue in the first place.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Well, if that people piss offs cause i suggest a fix than its cause they are too sensitive or whatever...

Certainly no reasion to get pissed.

I let this thread die off then if thats so a problem, it was just a thought, i play many different nations i will not make a mod just of this issue with a single nation, can just play something else then. But i think i have a right to suggest things i can see improved, no matter who agrees or not or if it will be implemented or not. It was sharing about game expierence after all.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

What is causing some friction here is the attitude that it's something that needs a 'fix', as you continue to put it. Suggesting a change isn't the same as requesting a fix.

It seems you can't see the difference, so I'll say no more.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

What do you mean by this? Generally I tend to post things that contain useful information or clarification of an issue.

Your previous post on this subject was formulated as a statement of fact that LA R'lyeh needs to be fixed because it has a problem. There is NO consensus that the current way it works is a problem at all. If there's one thing I dislike, it's imprecise arguments.

The things you have posted as problems are problems ONLY for a particular style of play (e.g. maxing out Dominion at beginning and taking bad scales), while other styles (e.g. lower beginning dominion and/or better scales) work adequately or even well.

When you post the issue as if it were an undisputed bug (such as mind hunt crashing the game under certain circumstances or the Wild Hunt fort switcheroo), it goes straight into bug report territory and I've been tasked with managing that. So in such instances I am practically required to comment on it and make the distinction on whether or not tis can directly be considered a bug, or if it is simply a feature request/wish tailored to the particular preferences of a particular player or play style.

Nobody is denying you the right to post your opinion. Stating your opinion as fact and expecting it to not get challenged, that's another matter. Someone with a different opinion is free to express their disagreement with you here.

My statements rely on a couple of assumptions:

1) That the developers MAY disagree with you. If they do not, then I supopose they will change things as they see fit.

2) That if the developers do not agree with you and do not do anything, the only recourse for change is modding. That is both an assumption AND a fact.

What do you regard as convincing arguments? If you already have your heart set on one point of view, namely playing LA R'lyeh with high initial dominion and less than optimal scales, there is little that can be said to convince you because those initial parameters will cause the very things you are complaining about.

Playing LA R'lyeh is feasible if (in addition to having a tolerance for micromanagement) you take lower initial dominion and then take scales that are not as extreme high end as Order 3, Growth 3 and you can still do fine.

Specific counter-arguments:

1)Freespawn having no upkeep at all:

This would allow R'lyeh to mass completely ridiculous amounts of troops for no penalty whatsoever. Ashen Empire has the rather great drawback of killing all of its population very quickly, thus reducing income to 0. Hence Ashen Empire freespawns cannot have upkeep.

Dreamlands R'lyeh has no such penalty if you take high growth scale, meaning that you would max out growth and then have an unending supply of troops you could throw into the grinder without any impact on income at all, allowing you to buy hordes of mages, build forts and always have instant, unlimited (but for starvation), free garrisons. Make some supply items and the limits increase.

THAT would be a big problem for everyone BUT the R'lyeh player.


2) Starspawn and illithids being immune to insanity?

Why should they be? They are highly resistant to it, but that does not mean they should be completely immune. I have yet to hear of a good reason why some creature, similar though it is in some respects to Void creatures, should not be affected by something whose mere dreams can alter an entire world. If you want an analogy, hyenas are generally similar to dogs, but they are not actually dogs or even canines, and a hyena would not be accepted into a dog pack. Similarly, a dog would be torn and eaten by a pack of hyenas, it is not immune to their aggression merely by virtue of similarity.

So why should starspawn be immune to the Dreams of R'lyeh? Why is not higher resistance enough?

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Taking Drain or making Anti-Magic amulets help push your Starspawns over MR 20. Starspawns seem basically immune to insanity over 20.

I like the fact the settings you choose in LA Ryleh make a measurable difference in playstyle and management of the insanity. Taking Death-3 or Magic-3 means your nation will start to fall apart much faster; Growth-3 and you hardly lose population, Drain-3 and your units are much more resistant to your Dominions affects. There are few nations where both sides of the scales are viable choices.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

1) For many freespawns you need always a very high dominion and it leads to a very high upkeep sooner or later. Except you somehow manage to kill all these spawns off in some battles, but it requires a lot of micro. Scales are not very versatile for LE Ryleh, as you NEED order3 and growth3. If you play with a low dominion it nullifies the advantage of having freespawns as their numbers are too minor, the death and especially insanity disadvantage still lasts. How high should the ideal dominion be for the right freespawn rate, not too few and not too many? And why can't some freespawns cost no upkeep, like aquatic ones, which are less useful? If player manages to take all land provinces, the other player may surrender and there is no need to battle them anyways nor do they pose a big thread overall as they are limited to a few water provinces. Afaik only auqatic commanders can go on land with the amulet of the fish. Problem just is with aquatic freespawns if you do not want them you cannot do much to kill them off and cancel some upkeep, except by slowly let them starve and die. So, if you know a better solution to that one in a high dominion scenario, i would love to hear it.

2) Thats a very good counter-argument with dogs and hyenas, its also why starspawns sometimes have to battle void creatures at the void gate. But technically, its a hassle to deal with insane mages, the starspawns have the advantage to have mages that can be 3000 years old so never will see old age easily or at all. But then again, there is ME Ryleh too without insaness on them and cheap units to control with better control on your expenses and upkeep.

Maybe this thread is more thought of a contest between ME Rlyeh vs LE Rlyeh. I never hesitate to take Ryleh in ME as there are no heavy disadvantages or special scale requirements. That does not mean LE Ryleh is not more interesting to play, though.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

You don't need Growth 3, i subbed in a game where Ryleh was the strongest, or near strongest, with Death 3.

Ryleh needs chaff for their Illithid artillery in back.

LA Ryleh does suck in generating water-only freespawns however, they do act as a kind of PD. One funny thing about Death 3 is it helps keep your freespawn numbers down over a long game...

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Thanks for the info with Starspawns.

But, magic3, death3 with ryleh? You mean it for (very) small maps?

i usually make bags of wine for the chaff and hordes of illithids. I have no problem if the freespawns starve, but i do not want the more costly ilithidic artillery affected. i usually make a ton of them, so battles are decided in a few turns and enemy units do not even come close.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I honestly think all these problems stem from the fact that there is no way to disband units in the game, which is a huge oversight.

I can't remember having ever played another strategic level game that didn't have a command to disband units when there is an upkeep model in the game. I love strategic warfare games, I've been playing Civilization since it was on DOS, Colonization, Master of Orion 1-2 (3 was awful). All of them have upkeep effects in their games, and all of them allow you to disband units.

I had a vaguely similar problem messing around with Turmoil 3 EA Pangea in SP. The freespawns off the Pans, the beserker chicks, ate me out of house and home! Everyone in my capital province started to starve even with growth 3 and I had to micro manage moving the freespawns in and out of the capital just so that they could starve to death in another province. What a waste!

I think Ryleh's problems with upkeep and freespawn would disappear if you could just disband the useless water based aquatic ones instead of having them destroy your economy.

Jazzepi

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

It was Glory of the Gods, i think, not a very small map, though not the largest either.

I'm not saying you should take Magic-3 Death-3, only that these options have both benefits and drawbacks.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Just no upkeep for aquatic freespawns would help too, they still eat up everything...

Panagea ME also have the problems with Pans summoning girls taht just eat up a lot of food supplies. Even without any turmoil added. Just finished such a game. You should see when you move them all with bag of wines and how many longbows kill some hundres in few turns from distance. But its a good way to cancel upkeep and supply needs.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Part of it might be that Rlyeh plays the way Rlyeh is meant to play. As per the Lovecraft novels (or how Kristoffer interprets them). That might not be the most balanced and playable for those who dont play in an RPG mode.

Some improving of the nations might be possible without damaging the theme, and some improving of the themes might be possible without damaging the playability of the nations. But its probably more effective to take for granted that the way things are represent what the devs had in mind therefor what we offer will usually be in the forms of suggestions or requests rather than fixes or bug reports.

But hey, thats only worth considering if someone actually wants the change to happen. Otherwise you can take the tack of some people here that "my facts need no diplomacy". I havent seen that work very well but it seems to make some people happy with themselves. No particular person is being pointed at but since I seem to be accepted as one extreme I might bring up nearly all of my requests for the game did make it in.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I don't want to force any fixes, but found this one was obvious. And it turned out it wasn't that obvious for some here after all.

Actually, no upkeep for these free spawns would make this race more playable, if its too powerful people could ban it. I find a lot of other stuff in that game is much more powerful. The playablity of the race was my main concern and its theme and focus, not the balance. And insane ilthids or mindflayer which have a high mind control and have a knowledge over the void....bit unlikely to imagine but everyone to his needs, heh. I have no problem with it, if all players want this as is.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Quote: "You NEED order3, growth3(or they starve for sure), and no cold or heat scales like its possible in ma Rlyeh. You want your freespawns on land so they can attack most nations, with cold3 they would starve and you cannot effort the gold income hit as easily as with MA Ryleh. If those freespawns would not cost gold upkeep it would be possible to build more castles for supplies, though."

Out of curiosity, why not just let them starve? If you're worried about their upkeep, that is. If you're actually using them as chaff to throw at your opponents, they'll be dying fast enough that upkeep won't be as much of an issue.

Caveat: I've never yet played anything but EA.

-Max

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Because if they're getting spawned in huge numbers everywhere they'll also starve the mages and more important units in the province.

So you have to sweep them out every turn to avoid all your mages dying of disease. And that's a bit of a chore.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Hmmm. When supplies are limited, aren't they allocated to more expensive units first? I haven't ever noticed my commanders starving, for example. In a quick test game with LA R'lyeh, I had 135 supply worth of units in a 75 supply swamp, and the diseased units were disproportionately cheap freespawn. Oddly enough, 3 or 4 of my 9 illithids were diseased and starving, too, after a couple of turns, but that might be because they're size 4. The larger, regenerating freespawn were still okay.

I agree that this is another reason you'd want a "disband units" command.

-Max

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Max - Commanders don't suffer from starvation (or at least they get to eat first, I've never had enough commanders to exceed supply)

Starvation effects for units seem randomly distributed, although I'm not completely sure on this. I'm pretty certain that expensive units don't have complete priority though. I believe the reason your regenerating freespawn were all starvation free is because I'm pretty sure they don't eat (the lesser and greater othernesses, right? I think those are what you mean by the big regenerating ones)

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Yeah I tested and commanders don't starve, you're right. You still have problems with the lithids starving though.

I really think the underlying problem here is not the freespawn, but the lack of a dismiss button.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I played a game as LA R'lyeh. I don't think to make an economy running is the way to go. It may be better to spread chaos and insanity all across the world !!!

- used dom10 turmoil3/luck3/sloth3/death2/magic3 (why not Death3 ? because I'm a n... beginner)
- my tactic ? pillaging and taxing to destroy most of the whole world income (small map).
- upkeep problem started at turn 40 (which is fine IMHO). I just sent as most horde of chaff as I could on my opponents. Sometimes it opens a breach for invasion and pillaging !
- luck3/turmoil3 => lots of random gems = good help for summons.
- void specters are really efficient to spread insanity (stealth 25). And it's really fun when you check the insanity of your opponent's pretender during battle.
- multiple prophet are great !!! And that army of priest !!!
- used indie nature mages to make "endless bag of wine" for my illithids based armies.
- astral magic is great.
- underwater starting position *may* be a great advantage.

I didn't try on bigger maps, but I found LA R'lyeh rather powerful on this small one. And it was fun to play the great evil which destroy everything on his path. I found these style of play really close to the lovecraft's novels, even if in the novels such an apocalypse is only suggested.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Well, yeah, the mages have no problem and commanders, its the the ilithids as regular and national units you recruit in masses, to be sure they do not starve you need bags of wine or similar items and just take a limited number of freespawns with you, the rest just drains upkeep and need to be transferred to a supply poor area to starve and die. Its just a big hassle to do it but needed once you conquered some provinces with a high dominion everywhere, the upkeep will certainly limit your financial power, if you don't change that by any means.

And yes a disband command would be the solution here as well.

So far i read, many players support the idea of a disband command, and it would make many people happy and solve the problems with freespawns concepts.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

But freespawns are *supposed* to be a double-edged sword. I guess some players would like for all nations to have only advantages, and no disadvantages, but how could that be possible without having all nations identical?

For some (most?) nations, the disadvantages simply consist of not having the same advantages as other nations. Pretty much everyone seems to accept that, plus or minus people arguing in favor of a few extra advantages for their personal favorite nation. But for some nations, most notably LA R'lyeh (but there are others), some of the disadvantages are "active" disadvantages.

As much as I would like to be able to dismiss the odd random-event militia, having such a command would massively alter the balance of LA R'lyeh. They would become hugely overpowered if freespawns did not eat and were free of upkeep, or if one could use them where it was convenient and simply dismiss them where they are inconvenient.

LA R'lyeh isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. I tried it in a largish MP game (it was my death-3 R'lyeh that SelfishGene subbed for). I really liked the concept, but there was no way I could properly play a large R'lyeh empire and keep my job. So I just won't play that nation anymore. It doesn't make me feel that the game is somehow worth less because there is a nation I would like to play but just cannot - there are lots of nations that don't fit my particular playstyle (I would not want to play LA Ermor, and I never wanted to play undead Ermor in dom2, either). There are still plenty of nations that do fit my preferences. And the game is still much richer for having the current version of LA R'lyeh, available for someone who wants to give it a go.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Why are the freespawns supposed to have disadvantages other than their near uselessness in combat? It's not as though removing the upkeep on such troops would make the nation overpowered, because you can't use them with any effect against elite troops anyways. I'm currently experiencing zero losses in matches where 60 F9/W9 LA Mictlan Rain warriors fight against 100+ LA R'Lyeh freespawn. It's also not as though people would dismiss the freespawn unless they absolutely had to, as you will need 10 to 1 odds or better to ensure wins when using them.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I did not say that the freespawns are supposed to have disadvantages. I said that the freespawns themselves are a disadvantage of the LA R'lyeh nation.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

LE Ermor is a complete different thing. LE Ermor is easy to control in comparission. No upkeep, no supplies needed for your freespawns. You can take as many as you want to make an army or just leave them where they are, its an option for you not a must.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I did not mean to imply that they are the same. I only used Ermor as an example of another nation I do not choose to play. I'm happy to live with the fact that some of the nations do not fit into my prefered playstyle, and I don't see the need to demand that they be changed so they do.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Why would you think that the freespawn of LA R'Lyeh are supposed to be a disadvantage when they are effectively the only troops you can afford to field?

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Well. Meatwalls are always nice if you happen to have battle mages or mindblasters.

If they had no upkeep and didn't eat it'd be like LA ermor without the banishment vulnerability... perhaps their eating is enough to make the difference?

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

I do agree that dismiss would be a big help but still it would require keeping doing it.

A better solution I think:

1) No aquatic freespawn. They should all be amphibious so you can do something with them once you own the water.

2) The idea of new unit routing that's already been discussed in other threads.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Solution? To what?

LA R'lyeh is not broken. I find them to be a pretty balanced nation I do not see reason to improve on them.

I also agree with Gandalf Parker that R'lyeh is probably more fun if roll playing. You should be happy for each enlightened dreamer that joins in your song.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

LA R'lyeh is broken from a micromanagement standpoint.

Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands
 

Indeed, you wouldn't want to play it on big maps or think about playing MA Ryleh a lot.