German ranks
 

Sorry if this question does not belong here, but I find nowhere else to put it.

The fact that you can buy SS units is cool. However, the commanders still largely carry Heer ranks. Oberleutnant etc. How come?

Re: German ranks
 

The ranks are provided from a list by nation NOT by unit and the rank list for Germany is based on the Heer Ranks.

SS ranks are available for Sceanrio designers who may wish to change individual units if they have access to Scenhack ( activated by the CD version ) as explained in the game guide

Don

Re: German ranks
 

If you want to play campaigns using purely SS units you can also rename the rnk.txt's accordingly... Worked fine for me in one campaign.

Re: German ranks
 

Should you wish I can fairly quickly provide a table of equivalent ranks in the two organisations.

Re: German ranks
 

So could I so it's not needed. The ranks list that exists as "Nation 0" is close enough for the scope of this game

Don

Re: German ranks
 

Thanks for info, My SS KG's now have the proper ranks.

Man I love this game.

Cheers, Bob

Re: German ranks
 

Sorry if this question does not belong here, too, but ...

How come?

Those units which where in front-line use wheren't that much different than ordinary heer units. And those which wheren't .. dunno what's so "cool" about them or SS in general ... ????

Re: German ranks
 

It's a difficult question. Very generally, in wargaming the losing side tends to be more popular than the winning side: WWII Germans vs Allies, Confederate States vs Federal, Napoleon vs Wellington. I would suggest that this is due to most players, and I include myself, thinking "If I was in command, things would have been different..."

A second reason is "marketing". The National Socialists were not stupid. The SS was sold as an elite praetorian force, with special uniforms, special equipment and a direct link back to the "glorious past" of the teutonic knights. Whether or not you agree with the politics, the black SS uniform is pretty impressive looking. You can see some of the same factors in play in ads for the Marines, the French Foreign Legion and other "elite" formations. In SPWW2 the Marines get a whole OOB to themselves...

A third reason is the Cold War. Until recently, most western militaries were focussed on defeating the Russian Hordes. As the Germans generally and the SS specifically were the first modern western troops to go up against the Russians, it is easy for we westerners to identify with them. Only recently has WWII been portrayed as anything other than an American affair with some support from the rest of the allies*. In particular the overwhelming Russian contribution to the defeat of Germany is just starting to be acknowledged.

Finally there is politics. In general, most wargamers are right of centre politically. It is easy to look at what the facist regimes accomplished while avoiding looking at the failings. This appears too in the West's infatuation with ancient Rome.

Do I think the SS are cool? I have to admit with some guilt that yes I do. However, I am not naive enough to forget the racist brutality that underpins their "Cool" image. Then again, I prefer to play the Japanese - they are guilt free right?

PatG

*This seems to be primarily a Hollywood problem. In no way do I mean to ignore the huge contributions the US made in men and material.

Re: German ranks
 

Well put, Pat, I don't think I would have laid it out as well, however, you hit the nail on the head.

BZ, PanzerBob http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif

Re: German ranks
 

Hi
I found some interesting stuff on the SS in this book, "World War II" by Orbis publishing.
As we are all aware the origional task of the SS was to administer state terror as directed by Hitler. This was done through the concentration camps. The SS was a stand alone and very powerful organisation in itself, as testified to by the fact that when manpower ran out in Germany and the camp inmates were put to work in the economy, the SS insisted that the inmates had to be worked to death, rather than the idustrialists prefered option of keeping them alive.

The Waffen "field" SS or "fighting" SS brought some of this terror with them especially the TotenKopf, 1st and 2nd SS divisions which were composed from concentration camp gaurds and the Polizei Division formed from the SS police force. All men no doubt used to brutality. Das Reich and Viking divisions were largely recruited from German volunteers. There were also SS divisions composed of volunteers from scandinavia and Holland etc. Men from the foreign volunteer units could end up with the death sentence as traitors if captured. Their status remained "undefined" throughout the war. A cynic would say that the various SS atrocities served the purpose of making the SS fight all that much harder as they could expect a similarily brutal end if captured. And the SS does seem to be famous for fighting with fanatical tenacity.
Why do I mention this?
Maybe it would be reasonable to remove the SS units dice roll for surendering and assume they are "fighting to the death"?
The Japs are another story they believed that there emporer was divine and that they couldnt lose the war. And they werent keen on surrendering either! One example is Tarawa, of 4500 japanese a total of 17 soldiers and 129 Korean labourers were captured/surrendered. For many years after the war ended an occasional japanese soldier would turn up in the southern pacific still dutifully manning his station.
Again I would suggest that the Japs arent subject to a dice roll for surrender.
A lot of people would say that WW2 was really fought and won by Russia on the eastern front. Russia had something like 20000000 men killed.
Best regards Chuck

Re: German ranks
 

Unfortunately that's not exactly true about the origins of the SS, although many of the more basic books do mention it like that. It's simpler than the truth and serves to give a SS an even more sinister reputation.

But the original role for the SS was the protection of Hitler, especially during the putsch of Munich in 1923. The name SS (Schutz Staffel) does translate into 'body guards' and that was exactly what they were meant to be, much like modern day bodyguards protecting 'important' people.
While the SA was declared illegal after said putsch, the SS was very small and overlooked by the authorities which gave it time to grow, but not much. When soon after the SA was reformed, the infighting between SS and SA resulted in the effective end of the SA as a player.

In the years after two separate parts emerged, the SS-VT (VerfugungsTruppe) and SS-TV(TotenkopfVerbande). The VT were the 'fighting' arm, which included the Leibstandarte regiment (later 1st SS division) and the Das Reich (which was initally called the SS-VT division and became the 2nd SS division) for example. These continued the original role of the SS in guarding it's leaders and is the part which became the 'Waffen-SS' early in the war. Initial recruitment standards for the VT were higher than for the TV.

The TV units were responsible for guarding concentration camps and other police duties (in occupied areas). There was some interchange of personel between TV and VT but not much. Some of these TV units were later 'merged' to form the Totenkopf division. By the time of Barbarossa the TV and VT distinction had effectively ceased to exist.
If I remember correctly the concentration camp duties were taken over by the Allgemeine SS, with waffen-ss men serving short periods as guards, usually after recovering from wounds, after leave or awaiting permanent assignment to a (new) field unit.

So the 1st and 2nd SS division were NOT formed from concentration camp guards but the 3rd ss division was (although only about half the troops came from guarding the camps). Some soldiers from the 1st, 2nd and other divisions did serve short terms as guards but that was later in the war, after their formation as divisional units.

The SS Polizei division was never really part of the SS. It was formed from police units in late 39 and meant to serve in occupied areas as a 'militarised' police force. As the SS was claiming the right to police the occupied area's the division was later given SS status. The bulk of it's men were not members of the SS however and they did not wear SS insigna but police badges and signs. The were NOT formed from any SS police force but from the regular police.

Finally, the Wiking division was initially formed from foreign recruits (dutch and danish especially) with a cadre of experienced german soldiers. So not not by german volunteers.

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

On the SS surrendering, don't forget that while the SS initially recruited only volunteers and even then only the best of those, not only did these standards drop during the war, at a certain point it became common that draftees were enlisted in the SS. Many of the waffen-ss units did not have the great fighting reputation that the big well-known formations had. Even so, when the 2nd SS Das Reich went to Normandy in '44 it was in southern france reconstituting. Many of the new recruits that had to be fitted in were not just draftees, they were draftees from Elzas and Lorraine! After the fall of france germany had claimed these as part of the german homeland. So it wasn't considered occupied but part of germany proper. So it's inhabitants were drafted too. Ddin't matter that the vast majority considered themselves to be french (even though they spoke a german dialect). In fact, many draftees from these regions were deliberately put into SS units as they would be less likely to desert (they were supposed to go to the eastern front and the common attitude of the russians towards anyone in an SS uniform was rather harsh...).

So when the 2nd SS, a reputable formation, went to action in Normandy, they had a load of 'french' draftees that didn't want to be there and who were barely incorporated into the parent units. The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine.

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Narwan
On the Geneology of the SS my source gives this.
SS 'Leibstandarte' (hitlers body gaurd).
SS Verfugungstruppen (SS-VT) formed, each unit raised to battalion strength, "exclusively at the disposal of the Fuhrer for special tasks during peace and war" these were the 'aryan' crew.
By 1939 we have 3 SS-VT regiments 'Deutschland', 'Germania' and 'Der Fuhrer'.
Paralell with the SS-VT were the Totenkopffverbande, in 1937 they constituted 3 regiments, 'Oberbayern', 'Brandenburg', 'Thuringen', 'Ostmark' added after Austria was annexed.
After the Polish campaign the 3 SS-VT regiments were reformed into the Verfugungdivision. Leibstandarte becomes a fully motorised infantry regiment. Totenkopf division raised from the best of the Totenkopffverbande
SS Polizei Division raised. you are correct from "normal" police.
SS regiment Nordland formed from Danish and Swedish volunteers.
SS regiment Westland recruited from Holland and Belgium.
These two regiments were merged with the Germania SS-VT becoming the 'Germania' Division and then 'Wiking' division.
Verfugungdivision renamed 'Das Reich' Division.
5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed.

True the SS were origionally Hitlers Body guard but it soon grew way past this role. Dont forget the SS owned and ran the camps and the inmates and because of the shortage of manpower these inmates became a precious industrial resource. The SS charged a fee for their use and through this became very rich. Because the SS insisted the inmates had to be worked to death there was now an economic imperitive to collect more inmates guilty or not. Pretty sinister Organisation no?

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Narwan
Dont forget Alsace-Lorrane was part of germany 1871 to 1914. The area has over history been part of France, part of Germany and independant.
Id be interested in the source for this and what quite high is as a percentage.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

The SS was a murky organisation at all times with many different levels and suborganisations. All the above don't even go into the different levels and taks of the Allgemeine SS. But still, the ORIGINAL task for the SS was VIP protection.

A good example for the confusion is the VT units. Some of these were merged into a SS-VT division which has caused some historians to refer to these exclusively as VT troops while others include all the SS 'combat' troops (including the Leibstandarte). This latter seems to be the correct use as for example service in the VT became equivalent for fulfilling the militairy service with the armed forces as early as 1936, long before the formation of the division.

The nuances of the VT aren't terribly relevant though while that between the VT and TV is. They had different recruitment criteria, training and organisation. TV service didn't count for militairy service either as the army considered this a 'police' organisation.

There were in fact 5 TV verbände (each about battallion strength) in october 1939 when the Theodor Eicke, Inspector general for the concentration camps gained permission to organise an SS field division too (note that he was in charge of the TV part, NOT the VT part of the SS and it seems he wanted his own little army too). These verbände were No1 Oberbayern, No2 Elbe, No3 Sachsen, No4 Ostfriesland and No5 Brandenburg, based at Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Frankenberg, Buchenwald and Mauthausen respectively. About 6500 out of a total of 7400 TV troops were assigned to the division (so over 80% of all TV troops which can hardly qualify as the 'best' of the TV). Experienced officers from the VT were transfered in and the combat experienced former TV standarte Götze added (that had started out as a unit meant to conduct 'police' operations in the danzig area on the heels of the german armed forces but it had ended up in the front lines itself fighting the polish armed forces).
Still service in the division was not considered militairy service (until the first half of 1940) and they held on to the lower recruitment standards compared to the VT units.

The SS standarten Nordland (Danes and Norwegians, not Swedes) and Westland were in fact only battallions when they were merged with the Germanina regiment from the VT division to form a second VT division (which did become the Wiking division) but the did become regiment sized later on.

I have no idea what to make of this:
"5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed."

What year are these referring too?

And as to the high percentage of desertions, I'd have to dig up some specific numbers, but from my head these were high for normal german standards, not to mention the normal figures for SS units.

Sources for the origins of the SS divisions is Bruce Quarries 'Hitler Teutonic Knights' and for the Das Reich in frnace 44 is Max Hastings 'Das Reich; the march of the 2nd ss panzer division through france, june 1944'.

Re: German ranks
 

In some families int the Elzas and Lorraine one generation fought with the french army in 1870-71, the next with the germans in 1914, the next to that with the french in 1940 and then their sons again with the germans in 1944!

Re: German ranks
 

Here's a list of all formed Waffen SS 'divisions':


1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
4.SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier-Division - "SS-Polizei-Division"
5.SS-Panzer-Division - "Wiking" (also "Germania")
6.SS-Gebirgsjäger-Division - "Nord"
7.SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgsjäger-Division - "Prinz Eugen"
8.SS-Kavallerie-Division - "Florian Geyer"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
11.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Nordland"
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar"
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien"
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland"
16.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Reichsführer-SS"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"
18.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division "Horst Wessel"
19.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.2) - "Latvia"
20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) - "Estland"
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg"
22.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division - "Maria Theresa" (ungarische)
23.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division (niederländische Nr.1) - "Nederland"
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
24.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS - "Karstjäger"
25.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.1) - "Hunyadi"
26.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.2) - "Hungaria" (also "Gömbös")
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck"
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische)
29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr.1) - "Italien"
29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (rußische Nr.1) (also "R.O.N.A.")
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (rußische Nr.2)
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weißruthenische Nr.1) - "Weißruthenien"
31.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Batschka" (also "Kukuruz", "Lombard")
32.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "30.Januar"
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne"
33.Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.3)
34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Landstorm Nederland" (niederländische Nr.2)
35.SS-Polizei-Grenadier-Division - "SS-Polizei-Division II"
36.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS - "Dirlewanger"
37.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division - "Lützow"
38.SS-Grenadier-Division - "Nibelungen" (also "Junkerschule")

SS-Grenadier-Division - "Neu Turkistan"
SS-Panzer-Division - "Tannenberg"
Kampfgruppe-Division - "Böhmen-Mähren"


I think there are enough units in there of dubious quality so as not to have a 'no surrender' rule for SS units.

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

hmm..., it was primarily Danes and Norwegians that were targeted for the creation of Nordland, though I would think the vast majority of the manpower were Germans. At the time of Barbarossa Division Wiking was staffed by Germans (about 90%). In 1942 the Finnish III/Nordland was added.

The number of Swedes in the Waffen SS are sometimes said to be in the range of 500, but there is little, if any, support for this figure. By adding all that could possible be considered "Swedish" - we're talking about estonians etc of Swedish decent or Germans who moved to Sweden after the war - you'll get a figure of about 200. It has been possible to confirm about 180 Swedes in German service, of those about 100 got anywhere near the frontlines.

Sidenote:

Regiment Nordland was later expanded to Division size, but the bulk of the troops were ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) from what today is Romania.

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Narwan
"What year are these referring too"
Well it seems to be 1939. So these units maybe appear in the invasion of France. I had assumed that these units had gone on to form 1st and 2nd SS divisions, maybe they were included in these divisions later, I dont know. They seem to be what happened to the 20% of TV that didnt get into the Totenkopf division but at 2 brigades and 2 regiments 20% seems a little low. The two SS cavalry regiments were formed from "independent cavalry units, cycle units, and horse artillery elements".
Best Regards Chuck

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Narwan
Well if all these were full sized divisions the Germans may have held the russians for an extra year and ended up being nuked.
For instance.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" This Division was little more than a brigade
It was formed in the last 2 months of the war and made up form the remains of 33rd Waffen Cavalry Division wich had been destroyed at Budepest. The French element was one regiment and one Brigade
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck" This division again brigade size.
These below seem to be pretty typical of the poorly performing "SS" Divisions.
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar" Formed 1943 Mutineed during training brutalised yugoslavian civilians was disbanded and reformed as a mountain regiment.
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg" and
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
Both had such high desertion rates they were disbanded.
But then we have,
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien" Wiped out in the Brody-Tarnov pocket.
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland" fought to the death in Berlin.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" fought to the death in Berlin
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische) Wiped out on the Order 1945

So yes there were SS 'divisions' that were a "joke" but these seem to be way under strength, didnt last long and didnt do much. Most of these paper divisions seemed to have been used in police actions and had little if any opportunities to surrender in any case. The Nazis organised a SS division for every country they occupied to pretend that Europe was united in a crusade against Bolshevism" and these are usually the substandard units you refer to. They are more for propaganda purposes than fighting.
From a second source that plagurises the first.
"Perhaps the most crucial of these fire brigade battles was the containment of the British and Canadians at Cean in June July 1944 where the seven Waffen SS divisions fought themselves to virtual destruction."
Im not sure here but these appear to be

1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"

For game purposes I think that most players are thinking they are buying men form units such as these when they buy SS not from one of the small shortlived substandard units.
So maybe "no surrender"?
Looking at the diversity of the SS maybe there is a opportunity here to give it its own OOB like the Marines?
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Wulfir
Yes my first post seems rather inaccurate, you are correct, I menat Norwegian when I said Swedish.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

Totenkopf division was not in France during the Normandy campaign, it was in the east.

As for the 17. SS PzGren Div, I've studied it some for a possible German Normandy campaign - but I shelved it. Nobody would want to play the 17. SS in Normandy - it was not particulary well equipped and it was reduced in combat pretty much the same as any other German formation in that campaign.

Re: German ranks
 

Well Chuck, I think you're forgetting two things here. First that most SS divisions raised in the war started out as smaller formations, usually either legions, regiments or brigades before being upgraded to division status. The second is that the accepted size of divisional formations dropped significantly during the war. All of the divisions in the list I give were at some point or other actually formed as a divisional formation (taking into account the difference of the size of divisions at different periods of the war).
If you want to add all the formations that didn't reach divisional status or divisions that were planned but never really formed the list would be much longer.
Also the lesser quality unit usually weren't short lived either. The prinz Eugen division for example was raised as early as march 42 and fought till may 45 but its troops weren't exactly the best around.

Your examples of what happened to some of these formations illustrates my point perfectly. The quality of SS formations ranged from units fighting to the death to units that were disbanded after some time due to high desertion rates (and in a few cases even acts of mutiny). Most were in between these extremes for most of their existence. In other words, a general 'no surrender' rule for the SS doesn't seem to be in order for the game. And divisions fighing to the death doesn't mean that all individual members fought to the death, it means the formation fought on till it had no one left. But the losses could have come from many different factors, including surrenders by individuals or smaller groups.

As to the brigades of the SS-VT you mentioned earlier I'm still not sure what these mean. Maybe these are in fact the regiments that made up the SS-VT division after it's formation in '39. The unit was not used as a division for the invasion of france in 1940 but was split up. The motorised infantry regiments were given some of the other divisional units (artillery, recon, etc) giving each them brigade status. After the campaign they were merged again into a division, the brigade status being merely a temporary thing.
As to the kampfgruppe Nord thing, maybe that's something misunderstood by a source (of a source) somewhere as some of the SS field units served with Army Group North for Barbarossa.

The 17th SS fought against the US army in Normandy btw, not the british and canadians.

Re: German ranks
 

Good day, all

Interesting discussion, some of which could be thrown back and forth for years. I do like the idea of an OOB for the SS, however, I think this is best left as something that those of us who want one to cobble together for ourselves. The reason being is that a lot of ready-made scenarios and campaigns have SS & Heer etc units together which run off OOB16.

In line with this idea, is there a Flag MOD out there, which would change one of the Red, Green, or Blue slots to an SS or Death’s-head Flag/Victory? (Maybe I should make this a separate thread) I've tried cobbling this and other icons with the SHP editor and screwed things up royally.

Eternal War (gaming) PanzerBob

Re: German ranks
 

Guys,

excellent collection of data posted here, I also own some books and other material on the SS, just didn't have time to post.

Overall, you have to consider the ambiguous recruiting policy f the (Waffen-)SS and therefore cannot apply the same morale/exp ratings to all SS units, neither parallel, nor throughout the course of the war. For example, you cannot apply the same exp/morale bonus to the 1st, 2nd SS-Panzerdivision or the nordic divisions and some formation consisting of Albanian or Ukrainian recruits and never reached division strength anyway... (Handschar, etc...)

During the early years (Poland, France), SS units were fighting very agressivley and therefore had a higher proportion of casualties, but generally most formations were of inferior standards, definitely inferior when compared to the Wehrmacht - for instance, the Polizeidivision and the Verfuegungsdivision were recruited from former policemen and guards, and used mostly captured weapons (czech, later polish, french, etc...) - those were not as well-trained or -equipped as the average Wehrmacht division. Also, the personnel used to rotate between frontline service and their 'normal' job as a concentration camp guard, etc...

Then, you have this problem of recruiting elite forces when the Waffen-SS was enlarged later in the war. There was a general lack of recruits, so the SS had no right to recruit normal Germans as the Wehrmacht did - it could only take volunteers, that's why it started to recruit in western and northern Europe and later had to give up its hight standards (arian hertiage, blond&blue eyes, etc) and recruit also from the german-speaking inhabitants of eastern europe ('Volksdeutsche'), who were generally looked down upon to say the least, and later they recruited even eastern europeans with no germanic blood at all- these were units mostly for rear guard & partisan-fighting duties- just as the Wehrmacht did when it turned russian POWs into 'Ostbataillone' of very low quality when it came to a fight.

At the same time, however, the elite formations were still kept up and even expanded - by using ever-younger boys, hence the division 'Hitlerjugend' - and those boys, raised in the system and totally loyal + devoted to it, fought like hell...

Re: German ranks
 

Hello all,

Some interesting points. I think its worth noting that the "elite" divisons such as the 1st SS Pz Divison Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler suffered huge causalites during the latter stages of the war. To such an extent in fact it was technically "destoryed several times over" ie it lost more men than the divison actually contained over a period of time.

With the chronic German man power shortages these losses were often replaced by drafting unwilling volunters from the Lufwaffe into the units in mass. Even the Leibstandarte dropped any pretence of racial selection by the end of the war.

What is surprising is that these "premier" divsions functioned at all after these losses. replacemnts often only had months, weeks or even days to retrain and integrate. In any allied army the divison would have been decleared combat ineffective going through a similar process. A testamont to the effectivness of the NCO's and officers of these SS formations.

On a seperate note I do like to use SS formations and recreate their engagements. They performed some stunning feats of soldiering and were very adept at modern manouver warfare. The issues of warcrimes however has always left me feeling a little uncomfartable doing so. Espically since the more I reasrch German Pz and SS forces the more I come across. Does it bother other folks I wander?

Re: German ranks
 

dunno about their addition to modern art of warfare, the impression I got was that that was rather domain of the Wehrmacht.

Re: German ranks
 

Marek:

The Wehrmacht was certinally the inovaters. But by the time the elite SS units were converted into Pz Gren and then PZ Divisons they displayed some great tactical suscesses against staggering odds. The Germans were much better at it than the allies thats for sure!

Re: German ranks
 

Again we get into the mystique of the Wehrmacht/SS. A technologically superior but numerically inferior force faces down more numerous but less advanced foes often on several fronts at once. Ironically, these are the same circumstances that lend the same mystique to modern Israeli forces.

What a weird world we game in. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Bullets.gif[/img]

Re: German ranks
 

Figured out what the SS kampfgruppe Nord is all about. That is in fact the 6 SS gebirgsjager division Nord. From what I've found they were a kampfgruppe for a short while before attaining full divisional status. The division was still being formed when the deployments in advance for Barbarossa were taking place in the eastern parts of the german reich and those of its allies (the 'kampfgruppe' went to Finland). That's were the reference to the kampfgruppe originates. However, it appears the formation did attain divisional status on the 17th of june 1941; so after the deployments began but before Barbarossa itself was launched. Which is why you usually don't see the Kampfgruppe appear on OB's for Barbarossa but the 6th SS division Nord does appear.
One mystery solved!

Edit:
Still a difference though, the kampfgruppe was formed from regiments 6, 7 and 9 (so not 5). And these appear to be regularly raised waffen-SS, so VT and not totenkopf units.

The 4th and 5th regiments formed the SS-Brigade 2 Reichsführer-SS and 8th and 10th regiments formed the SS-Brigade 1 Reichsführer-SS. For these to it would seem they were 'regular' waffen SS regiments, although it could well be that (some of) the men were recruited from Totenkopf units. I'll if I can find something on the origin of their recruits.

Re: German ranks
 

Since I'm at it anyway I'll keep going 'till I've got it figured out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The 1 SS Brigade was indeed raised from Totenkopf Verbande. You are completley right on this Chuck. To be more precise:

8. SS-Totenkopfstandarte
circa 2,600 men
Raised 11/39 Cracow from SSTK Std. 4; became part of SS-Brigade 1 (SS Infantry Regiment 1) under Kommandostab RFSS April 1941; then tranferred to 18th SS Horst Wessel Jan. 1944 as SS-Grenadier Regt. 39. Directly involved in Holocaust assisting Einsatzgruppen A.

10. SS-Totenkopfstandarte
circa 2,500 men
Formed 11/39 Buchenwald from SSTK Std. 3. Became SS Brigade 1 (as SS Infantry Regiment 10) under Kommandostab RFSS April 1941, then tranferred to 18th SS Horst Wessel division Jan. 1944 as SS-Panzergrenadier Regt. 40.


So two TV verbande were turned into two regiments that then formed the 1 SS brigade. It's not clear when exactly it came into being as it had a couple of slightly different names in a short time span. Dates range from spring '41 to late summer '41 (the source where I got the above info use april '41 which is probably right). What does seem clear from it's record is that while it was a combat unit capable of regular combat operations (of which it conducted several) it was also or perhaps even mostly used for antipartisan duties and Einsatzkommando duties. Sounds like this was one of the most nasty units the waffen-ss had...

So far no luck on the other brigade but since the 1st was attached to the reserves of army group center I bet the second brigade was attached to army group south (and with similar origins).

Edit: the 1 SS brigade was not attached to army group center but was part of the OKH reserves, the command staff of the RFSS to be more precise. It didn't become 'active' till july. Can't find anything substantial on the 2nd brigade, except that it existed at some point.

For those interested I did find this reference to a source:

"PRECHTL, G.M. "Unsere Ehre Heißt Treue": Kriegstagebuch des Kommandosstabes Reichführer-SS - Tätigkeitsberichte der 1. und 2. SS-Inf.Brigade, der 1. SS-Kav.Brigade und von Sonderkommandos der SS. Wien: Europa Verlag, 1984. As I recall, this is a HUGE book - maybe 850 pages or more."


The SS cavalry brigade mentioned seems to have been used in a similar role as the two brigades. It later became the Florian Geyer division.

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

I have a source* stating that the 9th Regiment was formed from the Totenkopfstandarte "Kirkenes" - a fully motorised formation deployed to the desolote northern Finnish regions. It participated in the fighting around Salla and Kiestinki and performed with a serious lack of profesionalism, suffring heavy losses in these early fighting (something that was true for NORD as a whole).

Gyllenhaal, L - Slaget om Nordkalotten

Re: German ranks
 

The 9th was originally part of the kampfgruppe but when they went to Finland the 9th was detached. The rest formed the division, perhaps the 5th was added then to fill out the division with a 3rd regiment?

The 9th went on as an independent regiment and was send to Finland not much after the rest. It seems all of these were very undertrained. I read a quote on another board to the effect that they weren't much more than civilians in uniforms when they were send into action.

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Narwan

Just for interests sake, do you think the Japs should get a "no surrender" bonus?
Best Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

Not Narwan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif it would be better to make them very hard to break but easier to kill. This would reflect the samurai spirit behind the Banzai charge and putting snipers up trees.

Also from recent reading, all true snipers - not marksman - should get a "no surrender" bonus.

Re: German ranks
 

Good question. I'm not sure. The japanese were very different from other soldiers. They did tend to go on where others did not. Even though SS troops were often shot when captured, that statement itself shows that they did indeed surrender. Some, on the western front even most, survived surrendering. It did happen and with some regularity. Even on the eastern front.
And while the occasional surrender did happen amongst the japanese, that was quite exceptional. So there is ample reason to distinguish here. Whether that means a complete 'no surrender' option or whether surrendering (including disbanding when losses are too high) should simply be much, much rarer amongst them is a more of a code issue I think. If the choice is between the same surrender mechanic as other nations have or none I'd say none as that would be a closer approximation of the historical truth in my opinion. Having said that, there is another factor that obscures this even more. While the japanese tended not to surrender, that does NOT equal fighting to the end. Fighting to the end implies dying at the hands of the enemy. There is ample evidence to show that suicide was often preferred over (possible) capture. In game terms the effect would be similar though. Still the point remains whether it was common enough to justify treating the japanese the same as the other nations with regards to surrendering. I feel special circumstances are warranted and prefer the current set-up over treating all the same.

I feel that the USMC's no surrender is more problematic. I understand the reasoning there, but I think it is a much 'greyer' area than with the japanese. For instance, if marines had been deployed to the european theatre of operations, would they have shown the same reluctance to surrender facing the germans or italians as they did opposing the japanese? In my view the surrender record of the USMC in the war is more testament of the behaviour of their opponents (so a reaction) that it was something inherent to the corps itself. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying in any way that the USMC surrender(ed) easily. Just that it has more to do with circumstances.
As the game is a historical game and the USMC does mainly face the japanese and they did rarely surrender to them there is justification for the current situation. But it remains a judgement call (and I'm not the one who has to make it).

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

This is very interesting, are you telling me that the USMC and Japanese currently dont surrender? or that they are treated differently to the other OOBs as regards surrendering?
Best Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

As far as I know they fight to the last man (no dispersing of the last few men of a squad) and they don't surrender either. From a quick check of the design history this dates back to spww2v2.

Narwan

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Narwan
Well I agree that the Japs are in a "no surrender" class of there own. If I were to rank the various nations/OOBs in order of "no surrender" I would have thought it might go something like Japs, SS/NKVD, eastern front wermacht/Marines I think its a bit odd that the marines get the -same- no surrender bonus as the japs and better than SS. Looking at the Marine campaigns/landings it seems that in common with the dodgy political SS units they actually had very little chance to surrender anyway, hence the surrender record, ie
(and without trying to belittle the efforts of the Marines)
The Marines did have enormous material advantages over the Japs. ie complete air control and so thorough pre-landing reconassience, Artillery support was phenominal, in the pre-landing bombardment Io Jima got 1950 rounds of 16", 1500 14", 400 12", 1700 8", 2000 6", 31000 5" plus air, plus rockets. So the Marines were never going to fail. Best I can find using memory here didnt bookmark it, is a Marine Battalion did get to about 60% casualties before being pulled out of the line and replaced by a fresh unit. The Marines had excellent supply, hospital ships etc etc, the Japs were usualy completely isolated and often hungry, their minute artillery was quickly located and smashed. So the few Japanese counter-attacks (excluding banzai suicide charges) they actually made (This is where the Marines get the chance to surrender) were basically unsupported and hence failed especially in the face of the massive artillery that must have been directed at any japanese troop concentration.
Considering this Im not sure the marines deserve the in-game "no surrender" bonus. If the "no surrender" bonus is because they 'thought' the Japs would butcher them the same applies to the SS I would think.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

Hi Pat
Im not sure why they should be 'easier' to kill. Banzai is usually done when ammo is out and is a charge using swords, grenades and bayonet. So you dont need to model this you just need to 'play' it, ie wait until your out of ammo and rush the opponent Im sure the result will be satisfyingly realistic (ie easy to kill). With regards to 'hard to break' maybe the 10 suppression that units suffer when down to less than half man squads could be removed or lessened for the Japanese?
If you really wanted to 'model' banzai then I think it would be best modeled with a melee bonus.
Snipers I dont really like I seem to meet so many in PBEM. maybe they should get a lesser speed to model creeping around? they are after all a specialist type like engineers mainly employed in static situations, ie defensively.
I wouldnt worry to much about them being up trees.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: German ranks
 

hmm..., the Japanese did believe in the offense, it was not until the final battles in the Pacific they abandoned this for a protracted war of attrition meant to bleed US forces as much as possible before perishing.

Following a US landing the Japs would often quickly mount a banzai at night, and get slaughtered, with whatever was left melting into the jungle. Not even at Okinawa were they able to break free from this idea of the one decicive attack and got good parts of the 24th Division and the 44th Mixed Brigade shot up for no gain.

Re: German ranks
 

The "no surrender code" is based on nationalities. In the case of the USMC it's only the Japanese they won't surrender to. The Japanese will not surrender to anyone. The game has been this way for over 8 years now and has been noted in the game guide in ever release since then. However sometime in the past 5 years or so the surrender code for the USMC was refined to only not surrender to the Japanese. Previous to that it was everybody.

Don

Re: German ranks
 

Ahh, I didn't realise that. Learned something new today about the game, and not for the first time! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Japanese
 

Perhaps this needs its own thread. Chuck, I wasn't just referring to the stereotypical last ditch banzai charge but the general tactic of infiltrating the enemies position then charging to get into close combat range. The "easier to kill" idea comes from the Japanese willingness to accept casualties to get into close combat. By the American accounts I have been reading, the Japanese would just keep coming - taking horrendous casualities - but not breaking.

Snipers up trees falls into a similar line of thinking. A sniper who ties himself into a tree has accepted he will die once he opens fire thus is hard to break but has also comitted himself to a fixed firing post that allows him to be easily located and destroyed.

Removal of the 10 supression would be one way to go as would adding the hand to hand bonus. However until I have played a lot more with the Japanese, I will assume that any egregious errors have been caught and the Japanese behave reasonably historically. Note that if we start giving the Japanese a probably deserved bayonet bonus then we might have to do the same for the Brits - the other kings of infantry close combat. What we would then have to do for the Ghurkhas is frightening.

Slow snipers - not really needed. They do not need to maintain cohesion like a full section does and are relatively lightly equipped so the speed bonus is deserved. Now if you want to have sniper sprinting races in enemy line of sight.... As for snipers being deployed in static situaions - I have to disagree. Snipers can be used very agressively and were often used for information gathering and scouting - not shooting- by all sides in WWII. This is even more so in modern conflicts. Their lesser brethren - the marksman - is ideal for simulating small patrols, single sentries and point-men.

Re: Japanese
 

Hi Pat

I dont accept that the japanese had "general tactic of infiltrating the enemies position then charging to get into close combat range". or that their tactics made them "easy to kill"
The Japanese were regular infantry and used exactly the same tactics as every other countries infantry in battle, ie based on artillery and machine guns. As for "willingness to accept casualties to get into close combat" Im sure they were just as happy to kill their enemies at long range as at close range. They had no fear of close quarters fighting but didnt abandon normal infantry tactics so they could stab an opponent rather than shoot him.

Unlike the Allies the Japanese had extensive jungle warfare training. They had also had a war going in China for 10 years proir to entering WW2 during wich the troops became battle-hardened and their staffs extremely competent.
Infiltration is a jungle warfare/night fighting method. It is not neccessarily followed by a 'charge' but by whatever infantry type tactics that is deemed neccessary, setting up a MG or a sniper in the enemies rear or slashing the throats of sleeping troops and then retiring to your own lines etc.

If you read accounts of the Japanese in Malaysia, Burma, Dutch East Indies, China, Phillipines etc you will see descriptions of normal infantry combat. However the Japanese were happy to take "horrendous" casualties just like the SS and the Russian infantry. However one doesnt need to model this just run your counters forward without any artillery support, or against a numerically superior opponent.

You missed the Australians from the close quarter fighters.

As for snipers tied to trees this sounds a little like Hollywoods interpretation of the excellent, imaginitive and effective camoflage used by the Japanese. Snipers can be used aggressively but were they in WW2? A sniper obviously gathers information whilst sitting in position but this isnt scouting. It is a waste to use an expensive, trained shot to scout or on point duties they are very likely to get shot, captured or step on a mine, much better to have a sullen recalcitrant trouble maker on point and a normal but alert infantryman as part of a scouting party. I think sentry and patrol are jobs best left to cheaper normal infantry. Just as you wouldnt use engineers as normal infantry or a truck driver to command the company.

I must say I prefered the Japanese infantries with their origional 8 movement points configuration in the earlier versions of the game. When you see pictures of them in action they are always moving at the double and look extremely fit and tireless. It goes some way in modeling there astounding ability to go through "impassable" terrain when flanking defensive positions.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: Japanese
 

Hi ChuckIn their training, the Japanese placed alot of emphasis on the attack, closing with the enemy and on bayonet drill. (CMHI re-publication - name escapes me at the moment) This is not to say that they did not use other tactics. Sorry but in my reading I don't see normal infantry combat - I see hit and run, infiltration and of course the massed charge.
I disagree - willingness to take casualties is not necessarily the willingness to waste men. One gunjin standing up to draw fire so his mates can pinpoint the enemies positions is not something westerners will easily understand but it is not wasteful.All the colonials actually - sorry Diggers, Canucks, Kiwis, South Africans, Rhodies....
"Combat Officer: A Memoir of War in the South Pacific" specifically mentions shooting up tree tops and watching the tied in bodies drop.
While recently digging up books to support my daughter's interest in target shooting, I read several histoies of sniping - all mentioned the aggressive use of snipers in WWII and the information gathering techniques. As one example of info gathering, in the First War, because their lives depended on spotting changes in the terrain that could signal a new German sniper post, snipers noticed over several days that a cat was hanging around a presumably abandoned German trench. Figuring that someone was feeding the beast, they reported it up the line and were rewared by an effective fireworks display to their front.Not on point - on recce. All you mentioned but by training observant and skilled in camoflage techniques. The aim is to get information not get killed.Yes. Colonel Fredericks of the SSF (an elite light infantry force)would often penetrate German lines before and assault and watch his attack go in from the enemies point of view...Speed and ability to move through rough terrain - the classic marks of a light infantry force.Cheers

Re: Japanese
 

posted twice, apologies

Re: Japanese
 

Hi Pat
"Sorry but in my reading I don't see normal infantry combat - I see hit and run, infiltration and of course the massed charge." Sorry, no offence intended but perhaps you havn't done enough reading yet? If you are basing your comments on Jap vs Marines engagements these are only a small part of the Japanese war effort and in these engagements the Japanese troops are often in a position where normal infantry tactics aren't feasable. Your "massed charge" is a last ditch measure usually without proper artillery preperation. These acts of desperation happened during the last gasps of isolated Japanese Island garrisons or at the limits of Japanese expansion, Guadal Canal and New Guinea for instance. In these campagns the Japs were at the end of very tenous supply deep in enemy territory and had orders to destroy the beach head or "take the position" with whatever means they had and do it before the well supplied enemy brought in more reinforcements. Result, unsupported infantry attack, your "massed charge". Under "normal" conditions they fought like normal infantry. I have yet to see anything about them using "hit and run", perhaps an example?

Im hoping your not suggesting Japanese infantry/Gunjuns? stood up to draw fire?

Does "Combat Officer: A Memoir of War in the South Pacific" mention which campaign tied up snipers occoured in?

Your sniper scouting example is actually an example of observation not scouting and is the wrong war anyway.

The vast majority of armies dont have specific "scouts" scouting parties are usually made up of regular infantry drawn from the nearest infantry platoon, as such they dont have any special observation or camoflage skills. You may be confusing the current excitement about special forces with the regular infantry/snipers that operated during WW2. The aim may be to get information and not get killed but moving into unknown territory close to the enemy is obviously very likely to get you killed.

Could you define light infantry? I dont think the Japanese qualify. Japanese soldiers AFAIK actually had the heaviest packs of any infantry and had all the same types of weapons and the same organisation as any other countries infantry.
I think you may be placing to much emphasis on the Japanese response to the American Island Hopping campaign at the expense of how they operated on other fronts, Hollywood should also take some of the blame I think.
Best regards Chuck

Re: Japanese
 

Start with:
A Historical Perspective on Light Infantry
by Major Scott R. McMichael

(edit)
And
Nomonhan: Japanese-Soviet Tactical Combat 1939
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...rea2/drea2.asp

Follow up with:
Out of nowhere : a history of the military sniper / Martin Pegler.

Those will cover the basics of my arguments. If I have the time or inclination to go through the PDFs I have gathered, I will pm or post in a new thread.

This is an off-topic thread - I'm not going into anymore detail at this point.

ps: offence taken.

Re: Japanese
 

Hi Pat Sorry for the Offence.
Thanks also for providing the link Ive read it and it is very interesting If you have no further interest in discussing these matters thats fair enough. I would just like to bookmark a few specific points from your links text here to avoid another reading of the link if this topic arises again later.

"As the new conscripts of the 7th Division underwent their advanced infantry training on the dusty plains near Tsitsihar, its members concentrated on the three cardinal drills of the IJA: bayonet practice, firing practice, and maneuver"
"Taking advantage of folds in the ground, sand dunes, and depressions for cover, 5th and 7th Companies employed fire and movement tactics to advance about 1,500 meters. Riflemen would dash forward to the next suitable ground concealment and from there fire at enemy strongpoints to keep Soviet weapons crews pinned down so that other Japanese infantrymen could rush forward"
No Japanese massed charges.
Japanese retreated in good order.
Infiltration and "hit and run"(raids) more common for the soviets than the Japanese.
A soviet sniper did move forward but did so in the company of an infantry platoon.
"They appeared to be an artillery observation squad with an infantry security platoon."
after being shot up
"Sweeping the killing ground, Japanese troops recovered twenty rifles, three light machine guns, a sniper rifle, and twenty pieces of various field telephone equipment."
You may find these links of interest.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwi...a/chapter9.htm
Best Regards Chuck.