Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Can those darn munitions be so deadly so they can take out t-72?

Msta-B section wiped three of my t-72s with one or two cluster munition explosion. I wondered are they really so lethal that they can penetrate t-72 armor?

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Cluster munitions are lethal weapons, yes. The penetration of a single bomblet isn't impressive by normal standards, around 10-11cm IIRC. However they are released in mid air and will land on a tank from the above. The top turret armor of the typical T-XX is around 4 cm, meaning that it will easily penetrate . Even if the top armor was reinforced (either with ERA bricks or passive armor) the engine deck is still vulnerable, so the tank can still get immobilized.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Besides there is also Multi Effect Cluster ammo, featuring larger shaped-charge warheads which will easily penetrate a modern tank's top armor.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

I guess I just have to face it, though I still wonder how 155mm artillery ammo rarely is capable to destroy a tank in this game, but cluster munition can do even from a larger area.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Because as said, cluster munitions attack the top of the tank where its HEAT or Dual-Purpose HEAT warhead will have enough power to penetrate that thin armor. Also the tank is usually struck by several munitions, thus increasing the chance to inflict critical damage to the vehicle or crew.

Opinions are varied, but generally a 155mm HE shell will not certainly destroy a MBT. It will give it a serious shock and disable systems, but the chance of a direct hit is extremely small. So the idea of those cluster munitions is to increase or even assure the chance of a hit in a given area for a single shell carrying those cluster munitions.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Also remember that to be "destroyed" in game terms, a tank or other AFV doesn't have to be a flaming wreck. Given the short duration of scenarios, "destroyed" tanks can belong to the category that can be towed to the rear area to be patched up in a matter of hours or days. There are many ways to totally disable a tank on the battlefield, not all permanent, and they are the ones used in the game.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

"Opinions are varied, but generally a 155mm HE shell will not certainly destroy a MBT"

I remember and anedocte about a T-55 which was destroyed by a plunging artillery HE shell somewhere in Africa. Considered that a typical 155mm shell weighs around 43Kg and that the top armor is just 4cm it does not seem unlikely. Still as it requires a direct hit it would be a pretty rare occurence. A cluster artillery round on the other hand might carry more than sixty bomblets, each of which would be bad news for a tank.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

But in this game, even marked hit from 155 HE doesn't destroy a tank but cluster munition does. Now I start to wonder that how this is possible because I don't believe that cluster munition is more powerful munition than 155 HE?

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

is it a direct hit? A "hit" in game doesn't necessarily mean a direct hit. I would think that a 155mm shell coming down in a hex would consistantly get shrapnel hits on a tank, but these hits would not be severe enough to destroy the vehicle or even cause it to become immobilized.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Yes, it is, if you consider that anti-vehicle submunitions are shaped charges and therefore penetrate more armor than blunt PIBD HE shells.

Also they have more chances of hitting a tank because of the sheer number of submunitions per shell. I know that arty shells can be placed quite accurately in good conditions, but in game terms, you still have one shell in 2500m² (one hex), while the same one round can contain 50-60 bomblets (from the top of my head), that gives 50m² per bomblet.
Given the average top-view surface of a tank is roughly 3x7m so 20m², you have about 2 chances in 5 that a tank will take a top hit that will penetrate its roof armor. And as I wrote previously, a "kill" in game terms is a very loose definition, say a weapons and motor kill or the crew being knocked unconscious is a kill.
So with a good margin, you have one chance in 3 that a DPICM round will "kill" a tank if it hits the right hex. Now I have no idea how much surface a 155mm cluster round will cover, but I have heard that they are designed to endure a spread pattern of at least 1 bomblet per tank-equivalent surface.
Much headache for not much result, I know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

The vast majority of "hits" reported and heard in the game when bombarding armour with conventional artillery are residual effects from shrapnel not "direct hits" but it is possible with enough artillery and enough target armour to actually hit and destroy one directly with a 155 HE shell

Don

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

I have found cluster munitions, what I am referring to in fact are rockets from MLRSs, are absolutely lethal to pretty much everything in the hexes they hit. I would include in this cluster bombs as well. These are the most dangerous weapons in SPMBT and I have used them to not just break up enemy concentrations but to virtually eliminate the entire enemy force. I purchase MLRSs instead of artillery, and a lot of them. Just a few IFVs and tanks can finish off the remains after a bombardment or two. At least in this game they are the ultimate weapon. I like them.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

In the game MLRS does exactly what it is meant to do also in real life, to totally demolish a given area. A battery of MLRS is called in US Army square grid removers, able to shower a whole area of 1 square km with deadly dual-purpose bomblets.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

According those lines I had an interesting event in my current 1989 SU vs UAE campaign. A 155mm Artillery round landed right on my A-ERA equipped T-64B1V and I got the message "Advanced ERA defeats Penetrator", that is, of course, what I expect the A-ERA to do for a normal AP/SABOT round. But is it intended that also an at least 20kg heavy Artillery warhead is defeated or does it has something to do with the game code "seeing" the penetration value on the 155mm round and thus handling it like a normal Antitank round?

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

ERA can defeat HEAT and cluster munitions are treated as HEAT warheads. So anti-HEAT armour (if fitted) is also relevant.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Yes I thought so.
So it applies the same to the non cluster 155 round in my example, except that it's a kinetic penetrator not HEAT.

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

Lots of cool answers, thanks guys.

It seems that MRLS rockets and cluster munitions really are lethal weapon. So I ask how I can see that artillery unit what I buy contains cluster munitions?

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

If arty has cluster munitions you will see AP ammo listed.

Don

Re: Cluster Munitions - Capable to destroy tank?
 

and for MRLS ammo you sometimes have to look for the CM marker, at least in SOviet units.