Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I am starting to like the Knights of Avalon. Their ability to heal afflictions, and their magical attack make them, arguably, the best calvary unit. I am playing Man and they dispatch winter wolves and spring hawks in 1 round of combat.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

On paper, it looks to me like that would be vans. Cheap resource-wise, recruitable anywhere, great defense, glamour. Damage is inferior to KoA and they have those annoying javelins that they delay for a turn to throw, but stealth is a really fun ability. I agree that 20 KoAs are likely to kill 20 Vans, but it just takes so long to recruit 20 KoAs with that resource cost that I hesitate to compare than on a one-for-one basis.

-Max

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Don't be fooled by the Knights of Avalon. They are strong and flexible, but expensive and fragile against human players wielding powerful Blesses and Magics. In a Dominions 2 game, i bumped heads, completely accidentally, with a massive 9N/9E blessed army of Neifel Giants. These "best cavalry" died without inflicting more than a couple of losses, which was such a catastrophic defeat it left me all but dead by turn 15 and useless for 30 more turns (a game where i came back having lost my capital and having nothing but 2 commanders and a mercenary!)

The Knights are basically "specialist" units, against things like the ethereal summons above. Use them sparingly and carefully.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Well, to be fair, there probably isn't any recruitable unit, sacred or otherwise, that can stand up to N9E9 Niefel Giants without magical support. Those chubby blue guys are hard to top in a pitched battle.

-Max

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

How do F9 and either B9/D9 Jags stack up against the niefs? Anyone play that matchup?

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

How about a gold-equivalent horde of W9F9 Palankasha? Can you run it though your magic simulator?

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

It's not a full simulator yet, really no better than working it out on paper, but the gold-equivalent is 3 Palankasha plus change. And yes, counting the Quickening blessing and fire weapons, +4 to attack, etc., it does look like 3 F9W9 Palankasha would inflict about 72 points of damage on a E9N9 Niefel Giant in two rounds, before the cold aura really kicks in. (Well, if he goes berserk the second round it drops to about 63, although I'm not totally sure the Protection is cumulative.) I suppose I was thinking of trying to fight them in a Cold-3 domain. Expected damage for two rounds drops to 44 points in a Cold-2 domain and 36 in a Cold-3, and two rounds of combat is basically all you've got before you're frozen stiff (especially if there are multiple units on both sides, like 4 giant and 12 Palankasha, because the cold aura stacks). But yeah, F9W9 Palankashas look like they could stand up to E9N9 Niefel Giants. I stand corrected. That doesn't make the KoA in any way bad, though, except for the high resource cost.

Edit: Python code attached.

-Max

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

D9 jags might work okay. I don't know how to calculate afflictions, but the death weapons will probably be pretty negligible against MR 15. 6 F9B9 jags will do about 30 points of damage per round to the giant while they're still in human form, which is significantly greater than the regen rate and good enough that I'd want to test it in the actual game instead of just cranking numbers...

And yes, 26 F9B9 Jag warriors (560 gold) kill 4 Niefel Giants (600 gold) with zero losses. In a Cold-0 dominion, but not bad for a recruitable-anywhere unit. Actually, the first time I ran this I made a mistake and made D9B9 Jag warriors and they did just as well, so maybe any high-damage-output unit would do well. I'm going to take these tests with a grain of salt since there were no other units on the battlefield (which would fatigue the Jags in advance and also prevent them from concentrating exclusively on the giants), but at least a non-spell counter does exist.

-Max

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Nothing... edited.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

MaxWilson,

How does vulnerability work? Does it add to any successful damage post-attack, or does it affect defense, or does it add to the attack before the calculation?

I'm not sure, but in the .py script, if it's the last case, shouldn't (against(6,9+cold/2)) be (against(9,9+cold/2)), since the Niefs have 50% fire vulnerability?

Or there's also a good chance I am missing where you are adding in the 50% vuln, since I'm not a Python guy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Or else I just didn't realize the Niefels had a fire vulnerability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That makes it even worse, and probably explains why the in-game test went so much more harshly for them than my simulation.

My understanding is that vulnerability comes before protection, so yes, it should be against(9,9+cold/2). Thanks for the catch.

-Max

Edit: No, actually I think that's still wrong because the multiplier applies to the DRN, too. (6+DRN)*1.50 - (9+DRN). Ouch for the giants. against() won't do this without a new parameter.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Did you try the KOA against non blessed niefels? I do not think Koa's are special use only. I try to get a pack of 20-30 together over several turns, and they have steamrolled about everything they have faced.

Now, that is sp, so they have not run up against human made sc's. But they do take out mammoths, giants, summer lions, without too much trouble. They rarely break, have fantastic speed to kill anything trying to run, and they heal up their wounds, so by mid game they can be full health with 3-4 exp starts each. Most of mine in the present game have 4 stars, and i gift of reason one, and made him a commander. Man should have had a mounted commander, but with gift of reason it is no big deal that they do not, since the KOA makes a good commander, especially with 4 exp stars.

Also, while the koa cant be blessed, mass protection and mass regen gives then 2 regen, and 23 armor. And most of man's casters can cast those.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Black Knight.

They don't work 100% of the time, but when they don't: no matter what happens, there's always another unit of black knights to throw at the problem. "Good enough" beats "the best".

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Black knights die too easy to spells because of insanely low mr. For the cost, black knights should at least get 10 mr. 9 is just ridiculously low. If you go against a race with priests that can smite, that have a some tough infantry shielding them, they can smite down those black knights in nothing flat.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

You have to use the knights with Ulm's unique spell Tempering the Will. That will raise their MR by 4.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Tempering the Will is thaumaturgy 5. Thaumaturgy is not what you would call an essential school for Ulm, and with Ulm's researchers not being particularly gifted compounded with the fact that you usually take drain 3 making indep. mages mostly worthless for researching purposes, it can be a while before you get to thaumaturgy 5. And as a matter of fact, once potent magics enter battlefield, and due to their higher costs, regular cavalry looses much of its force.

Pythium has the Serpent Cataphracts (69, 56). The usual stats for cavalry but only two attacks, a light lance and a bite.

Man has the Knights and the Knights of Avalon (80, 61). The latter, while capital only, have a magical weapon (the alicorn) and also recup (= staying power). Pretty good cavalry, but expensive.

Ulm has the Black knights (55, 68). Higher prot (20) but lower def and low mr (9). Their subpar mr can be a real liability, e.g. do not go against an astral nation that can field large amounts of mages to mind burn, paralyze and (Heaven Forbid!) enslave them. For example, Mind Burn is only at Thaumaturgy 2 and is accessible very early, easily castable (level S2), 100 precision, 100 range and low fatigue. Ouch.

Marignon has the Royal Guard (50, 49) and the Knights of the Chalice (90, 61, capital-only). The latter are sacred and with the right bless can be very potent *and* Marignon has the priests to divine bless them. Remember that even a minor bless (e.g. death for SC crippling jobs, nature for regen = less afflictions = staying power, etc.) can be quite effective.

Tien Chi has several types of cavalry, including the Red Guards (65, 38) that are sacred. They have the strength of spring ability which is a double edge sword. They are also one of the few nations that have archer cavalry. If there was a command for fire and retreat, with retreat being an *orderly* retreat, they could become even more fearsome. As it stands, fire and flee is a waste, since having to gather the units that have retreated into a great number of provinces is a real PITA.

Machaka has the Spider Knights (55, 26) that can poison and web your enemies and have more than one life, since when the rider dies the spider continues. The sacred version, the Black Hunter (125, 36) is capital-only but with even more impressive stats. Add that it is sacred and you can pile on it some blesses.

Caelum does not have cavalry per se, but it does have flyers. Before potent magics enter the battlefield (that can shut down flyers) they can reach the rear lines more reliably than any cavalry. The Storm Guards (15, 31) may be the best ones. Their resistances can also synergize with filling the battlefield with a barrage of cold and/or lightning spells.

Pangaea has the centaurs, which by themselves are already cavalry. The serpent cataphracts may be the weakest of the bunch, since they are resource heavy (and one of the obvious ways for Pangaea to get design points is sloth 3). They have only two atacks (but one of them is a one-shot first strike with the lance that can kill lightly armoured troops in a single blow) and no javelin to throw. The Warriors on the other hand are stealthy, have javelins to throw and can berserk. White Centaurs, being sacred, are even more formidable. They all have recup (= staying power).

Vanheim has the Vans (70, 12). What can I say that has not been said already? Sacred, with stealth and glamour, with some wicked bless (W9F9) they are regularly killing machines.

Bandar Log (100, 17) has the sacred tiger riders. Never played the nation so can't say much about them.

From this list, Pythium's cavalry is one, if not the, weakest. Sacred cavalry can always be boosted with blesses and that tips the balance in their favour. I would choose Van's as the strongest - sacred + stealth + glamour guarantees that they are viable even late game (think raiding parties). Some of these cavalry can serve purposes not usually assigned to cavalry, mostly Caelum and Pangaea that I have, in a stretch of imagination, counted as cavalry. To augment the inconsistency (as per Emerson: "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds") I have not factored elephants in.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Well there is always the low tech version of Tempering the Will, also in the thaumaturgy path. It will definitely work in the beginning when you don't have so many knights.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Do not underestimate the power of the alicorn of the KOA. A magical strike dealing 14 damage.

Magical strike, 3/30 movement(with forest) means they get where they are going in a hurry, both on the map and in battle. High morale, 17 defense, a shield, 3 attacks, 14 hp, 17 prot. And recuperation. While extremely expensive, these are my favorite calvary, the more so for being brutal without the need a a level 1 priest trying to bless them.

To get the full benefit of the 3/30, you need to gift of reason one of them into a commander. Pick the one with the most exp., as he will lead the most troops(no star leads 40). There are 3 mounted heroes, but one has a leadership of 10(: With luck 3, you will likely see 1 or 2 of them.

As Sor mentioned, if you do not mind the blessing, which can be a pain without divine blessing, some of the sacred calvary can be deadly, though the white centaur has 9 protection, and is extremely vulnarable to arrows.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Remember that the white centaur also has berserk, so with a nature/earth blessing he will go berserk, raise his protection by a fairly large amount, and be very hard to kill.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I do not like going 9 earth when i play Pangaea though. That is spending a lot of point based around a capital only troop
and priests do not have divine bless.

And with the speed they have, many times they outrun the range of their level 2 priest for the bless. Without the bless, they are 9 protection. After they are at reduced hps, they go berserk and pick up their prot to 13, which is still sub par for a 70 gold calvary unit. Berserk is nice, they do not retreat, but the KOA rarely retreats either. And that added protection of berserk comes at a price to its defense.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Without earth, the protection bonus from berserk isn't enough. With it they can be brutal.

Not as nice as in Dom2, though.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I like e9n9 with pangaea, partly because it makes for a kick-*** gorgon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif(iirc it has 18 prot and amazing regen when casting a regen spell).

Although its not MA the e9n9 bless is great for LA pangaea(great with black centaurs and dyrad hoplites)

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Hmmm, just started playing around with the Bandar Log tiger rider and he's got some potential. He's pretty expensive (100 gold), but he's not too bad on the resources, has a high defense, 3 good attacks (!) and "double" life like the black spiders. This just screams water bless to me. He's got a 13 attack and some fairly high damage on all three attacks (tiger claws > hooves) so seems like you can get away with just the water bless for some serious carnage and staying power.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I like the gorgon with 3 air. Mistform, air shield, mirror image > improved regen.

KOA does not have a hoof attack, but a magical 14 damage alicorn attack, coupled with 16 damage lance, plus the charge bonus,and a broad sword.

They can take out a summer lion in 1 round. And they all typically have 3-4 stars exp, which boosts their morale, str., attack, and defense. With recuperation, the core Koa's you recruit in turns 5-15, are still alive and well at mid and end game.

Once you get a pack of 20+, they can decimate enemy armies while taking few if any casualties. And armies that rout rarely make it off the field alive with that 30 ap.

Pangaea's armored calvary, of which i am quite fond of for the 40 gold price, do not have the magical attack. And sometimes struggle to kill ethereal units. The KOA shine against ethereal units.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I tried w9b6, or it was w9b8? with Bandar Log

The white ones benefit greatly with blood blessing, and the tiger riders are killing machines.
I used the blood goddess (with the blood bowl ind her hand)

Very vulnerable to archer fire tough. Place them carefully. And you can even get the white ones to reincarnate like I had.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Why gift-of-reason a KOA? Giving any commander a 5-gem flight item will allow them to lead KOA's across 3 provinces.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

None of the other Man commanders has 3 moves. KOA makes a good commander, recuperation, forest survival, and a natural 3/30.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I think you missed the point. Giving boots of flight (5A) to an ordinary non-mounted commander gives him flight and 3 strat move and is cheaper than the gift of reason (>= 20N).

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Nope,

I did not miss the point. heh. and it is a good suggestion. I have done it on occasion. But i guess i just like to have a KOA commander lead them. shrug. Actually wonder why they have no mounted commander? Even acrosphale has a MA mounted commander.

I also typically have nature gems to burn. I rarely have spare air gems, because i start lord forest with 6n 4 e. I use air gems to pump his air up to 5 to get air queens. And i make many items that give arrow protection for my commanders.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Man has the infinite knight heroes. Does it not get those in that era? Maybe its only LA

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

But one thing that does not do is that the combined group still does not have either forest move or flight, so if there's forests around, you'll still be stopped short of your full 3 movement.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

heroes do not show that often(: and one of its mounted heroes, Berland starts with a command of 10! But i have 2 mounted heroes leading armies of 30+(Berland can command 95 men with 4 exp stars), but i have 4 armies of koa, so i needed to make 2 KOA commanders for the 3rd and 4th armies.

Rhianne, the other mounted commander, with 4 stars, can lead 220 men!

I play man with Lord Forest, 6n 4e, sleeping, 1 turmoil, 2 prod, 2 heat, 3 growth, 3 luck, dom 6. The 3 luck gives me a decent chance at 2 heroes in a long game, sometimes 3-4.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

You empower your god from 0 to 5 air? Thats sick. I know air is good for buffs but still, thats ALOT of air gems. If you must have air buffs for him empower him once in air, empower an a3 crone in air and have her forge a booster both for her to summon air queens and for your god to have air2. If you cant give up a head or misc slot on your god then empower him twice(i still dont think you should at all) but empowering some-one 5 levels is just plain wrong.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

yeah,

I agree that getting him to 5 is not cost effective, but i do not spending gems on old mages(though old age can be offset with treelord's staff and an elixir of life.

I pump up my pretender's stats a good bit to get lamp to summon Al Khazim, and a few other of my favorite artifacts. That is more for fun in a sp game. When I play mp i typically only pump my pretender to 2 or 3 air, for buffs like mirror image, mistform. The crones occasionally have 4 air, and if they do i try to keep them from getting old age afflictions.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

Hes fun in sp but, just incase you dont know, i'll point this out now: NEVER summon al khazim in multiplayer, chances are very high you will lose him and anything you gave him.

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

yeah,

I had that happen to me in Dom II in a mp game(:

Re: Best MA Calvary Unit
 

I would actually love to see some kind of mounted knightly commander for Man in a patch sometime. I'd be goo to be able to recruit and equip knight champions instead of waiting for heros. I think that of all the nations, Man is the one for which a knightly commander is most thematic... and yet they don't have one