Indep. Mages
 

Sofar It seems to me the indeps are pretty much a waste of money unless you need them to branch into a new path. There are a few exceptions, but the most common seems to be the shamans of the animal spirits. Do you guys use these for researchers early on?

Re: Indep. Mages
 

nope. you wanna use sages if you can get one of the two sites that lets you build them. Some of the academies are good too.... but mostly indy mages are for branching into neglected paths.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Abysia's research capacity is actually so incredibly bad that the X tribe shaman are cost-effective researchers. They're not at all useful in battle, but they won't die off from old age, and the gold to research point ratio is about the same as the anathemants. Plus you don't have to build a fort to make them.

For most nations though they're only worthwhile if you need nature magic (or astral, in the case of the lizard shammies. The lizards are even worse researchers than the tribals though, for the cost, assuming some magic scale)

Re: Indep. Mages
 

It depends partly on your magic dominion, and on whether you have access to air/fire/death magic on your national mages. For a nation like Marverni, with no A/F/D and thus no research-boosters possible, I can see indie mages as being cost-effective, especially with Magic-1 or better. As Helheim I'll make a few Academy wizards, but not a ton, because while they're most cost-effective at researching they're not usually as good at being battle-mages as my Svartalfs. I'm still branching out into other nations, but as Agartha I doubt I'd use regular indie mages for researching because earth readers are so cheap, but I'd jump all over Academy mages if I found them.

-Max

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I play with indies off, so unless you find a site which enables the more interesting ones, you don't get any at all. It helps increase national differences, which I appreciate.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Is that the same as just setting indie strength to zero? Or is there a mod that prevents you from building indies once you conquer their provinces? I should try that...

-Max

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Max, there is no mod that prevents building indies. The way you do it is add the following into the map file for each province

#setland <province nbr>
#poptype 100 (any value greater than 87 will do)

That will remove the independent poptype, but it will still get defenders, because poptype removal only happens after the defenders have been assigned. You have to do a separate no-indies version of each map you want to play that way.

Independent strength means just how powerful the defenders are (i.e. higher value = more of them).

As far as what indie mages are useful, the Enchantresses, Enchanters, Sorceresses and Metal Order mages (Iron, Silver, Golden) are great, as are wizards. Depends somewhat on what paths you have and how high you can get them with nationals. Moon Mages and Elludian Moon Mages are downright brutal with Evocation 7, just put a horde of them in the back, script Nether Darts and watch the nemy army vanish under a rain of dark power.

Sages can be recruited from 3 sites: Library, Citadel of the Loremasters (unique, rare) and The Council of Sages (unique, rare). I think there might be a fourth one, but I can't remember for certain.

Of the indie poptype mages, only the Amazons are really worth anything bar special circumstances, or the lizard shaman if you lack astral magic (such as EA Ulm).

Re: Indep. Mages
 

4 maps have already have NI (No indies) versions ready made in the mod forum.

NI Silent Seas
NI Aran
NI Parganos (Edi's fix)
aaaand,... the other one Edi fixed that I don't remember the name of. The thread where you can find them was made by me and should be called 'no indy maps' or something.

Edit: Forgot to mention that if you play primarily single player the AI actually does better with no indies. No more armies made of 15 or so random national troops and a million crappy light infantry and militia. Makes a nice change. I personally very rarely play on anything but the NI maps.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Hmm, I saw this pop up then forgot about it, will definitely try out the NI maps. Randomized of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Enchantresses have been my saving find more-so than any other. I've had bad luck with sorceresses getting old, even more than sages. I did use the onyx (amazon?) sorceress in the last game to kickstart a weak blood economy with a rainbow pretender. Before that, never used em.

Enchantresses are pretty expensive, but worth it for the automated site searching and the 2E + boots blade winds.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I would think that it would be more balancing to have some mod that removes the site-based indept mages rather than the poptype recruitable indept mages. The site-based ones tend to be the "worthy" ones. Those would be the random-luck effect on the game that true strategists dislike.

Of course, in my games I tend to increase such things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Indep. Mages
 

My impression is that many of the rarer site based and maybe some of the rare poptype ones weren't nerfed the way most of the independent mages were.

Hydromancers and the Azure academy mages come to mind, but only because I've seen them recently. Gnomes, maybe?

Paths and pricing seem what I would expect from Dom2, not Dom3.

I wonder if it was intentional, or an oversight?

Re: Indep. Mages
 

All poptype recruitable mages have been nerfed to some degree or another. The Jade Amazons most prominently, Onyx, Crystal and Garnet less so, but still somewhat. Druids were chopped from N2 to N1, lizards are unaffected and all the rest are new additions compared to Dom2.

The site based mages are a different matter. Most of them have remained roughly the same as they were, except their random picks have been modified, which in many cases makes them weaker and in some cases makes them stronger. Enchantresses are far stronger due to the changed random system, Sorceresses and some others a bit weaker.

Most indie mages suffer from old age problems right out of the box unless they have nature magic (again, Enchantress FTW) or are some specialty stuff like the Moon Mages (both regular and Elludian). This makes the non-old mages kick that much more backside all over town.

Compared to national mages, who have fairly limited random selection, many of the site mages are more powerful due to what they can bring to the table, more so than was the case in Dom2 in some respects, less so in others.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Well the idea of the NI maps wasn't so much to preserve strategic balance, more to keep the focus on national troops and to see if it would improve the AI. With NI certain nations play quite differently, since they lack the generic cheap indy troops, or the ability to crank out indy knights and longbows making up for lack of missile and cavalry in their own lineup.

The biggest difference is with the AI though. Now the large number of castles it likes to crank is actually a good strategy since you basically don't get troops without them.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Sorceresses are really good, especially for nonastral or astral-1 nations. You can recruit a couple of them, then script one to cast light of the northern star and have them all cast soul slay. Really, really nice.
Or mass them and just have them cast stellar cascades. Air 2 also gives you a mage to cast wind guide.
Lizard shamans can be used for magic dueling - against tien chi mages or gods with low to average astral. 5-6 lizard mages with pearls, scripted for a magic duel, have a good chance of success. Or just curse enemy SCs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Onyx sorceresses can be scripted for dust to dust. Give them a booster and they are capable of controlling the dead, too.
All shamans can craft boots of rejuvenation, empower one or trade for a booster and they can also craft rings of regeneration and vine shields - very potent items.

Indie mages expand your possibilites greatly, they just require some creativity to be effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I totally agree with the OP. Indep mages are a complete waste of money. The only reasons you'd ever possibly bother recruiting these bozos would be if:

You need them to branch into a magic path your nation lacks, thus opening up a trillion new strategy options for you.

Or, your best stuff is capital-only, and now you have the option to recruit mages without interrupting the flow of your capital recruiting.

Or, you want more mages to craft more items. Or do more research. Or cast more summons. Or cast more site searches.

Or, the province with the indep mages is nearby, and a castle is farther away.

Or, you want more mages with your armies, for varied casting and/or redundancy just in case.

Or, even if you do have access to A2 in your nation, maybe it's on a 350G flagship mage with 2 (or 3) other paths, and you'd prefer to just buy a much cheaper illusionist if you only need him to cast Air spells.

Or, you think variety is fun.

But other than that and any other reasons I can't think of right now, I don't even know why indep mages are in the game. What a waste.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Uncle Yee is absolutely right... there is no point to indy mages.
Except in the cases he listed. And a few more, but why bother,
they're useless anyway.

I am so ashamed of them, that very often, I assign 50 patrollers
to make sure no player laughs at me when he finds out what I am
building in that castle...

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Now now uncle, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked if others used those as researchers. I see the uses of those if you need the magic paths (as you might have learned if you read the post) But are the usual indeps. worth the price for a sub par mage, or is it better to save up and build another castle for making you're (usually) better national mages?

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I tend to only use the site based indy mages as regular ones are generally pathetic.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Im abit tossed back by comments like "complete waste of money" or "no point". It would seem to me that such extremes must refer to certain games. Personally I love finding certain indie mages whether they are site or poptype. But I wouldnt declare it as an absolute because I know that its also based on liking to play Solo and really large maps. I dont slow down to take advantage of it on an MP small-map blitz so there they would be worthless to me.

Side Thought:
Has anyone tested to see if poptypes are affected by game settings? I know that Era affects poptypes, and Im guessing that it affects sites. I would think that magic level of the game might affect sites. Im wondierng if setting magic high or low affects poptypes. Would low give you more infantry indepts and high give more amazons?

Re: Indep. Mages
 

There are times when I really need blood or fire mages. I dont mind finding the amazons that give blood/fire mages. And the griffon riders have been known to be handy.

Not so much with the air/astral Amazons. Sometimes with the death ones. The water/nature not so much but I like building a temple there to get the combo mage/priest to move ahead with my armies, and the pegasus riders.

The indept shamans can be handy since some of them have stealth.

Of course all of this would be because of the nations I like to play as far as what is or isnt useful. But as far as researchers? I think I only would build a lab to get sages for that.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I actually like most of the indie mages. True that none of them can hold a candle to dedicated national mages with similar paths, but for e.g. nations that don't get nature picks, most indies are absolutely invaluable to get it started, since even a N1 mage can find a lot of important nature sites (such as the various Enchantress sites).

Of the Amazons:

• Garnets provide cheap blood hunters and can provide a blood magic jumpstart to nations without blood. Gryphon Riders are expensive and of limited use, but fire immune infantry is always useful. Especially if you fight someone who likes barbecuing your troops.
• Jade Amazons have the most powerful mages and can provide W2, N2 and D1, depending on random picks and absolutely kick-*** sacred cavalry with the right bless.
• The Onyx Amazons have H2 priests that have a 50% D1 and 10% E1 on top of that AND mountain movement, plus their sacreds aren't too shabby, they just tire quickly. The sorceress is a guaranteed Death searcher for non-death nations and rare ones can get D2, which can open forging options. Decently armored, speedy mountaineer infantry, which can be good in EA games.
• Crystal Amazons are the worst. They provide guaranteed astral and A1, which can help find some air sites (Silver Order if you're lucky) and increase air income, but that's about it. Lizards are more common and also give astral, so the only use is for air really. And speedy archers, which most indies aren't, but not comparable to woodsmen for movement options.

Druids, Lizards and the various Tribal shamans all have N1 and possible other picks that (if they manifest) may or may not be useful depending on national magics.

I expect poptype indies to be more useful in longer games and large maps, depending on site frequencies and difficulty of research.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Any of the sacred amazon troops are really nice if you're playing a strong bless strategy with capital only sacreds.

Even if the units aren't as good as national sacreds, they're still more sacred troops.

(Though the pegasi are annoying. I couldn't get them to not shoot, even with attack orders. They'd fly up, rout/slaughter the first squad, then start shooting at the next target. Waste of a F9W9 bless.)

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Some loose toughts about indies.

-Lizard Shamans rock. They cast Arcane probing and curse, 2 Very useful spells.
-Wolf Tribe Shaman are 10% death-1 = Dark Knowledge = Access to death.
-Other tribes shaman are less useful because with 1 air or 1 earth you can't do much and the Lion or Jaguar tribe are crappy.
-Druids don't look too impressive at plain 1 nature but they have the side-ability to call god if you mass them.
-Garnet sorceress = blood hunting = cool (is there other easy way to expand on blood?).
-Jade sorceress can clam specially at const 6 with the water bracelet.
-The Onix tribe have the priestess at Holy 2 = Sermon of courage, and they also can get magic paths at a cheap price.

At magic 3 any 110 gold shamans are great researchers for the upkeep cost.

The site mages are totally random but they can be even better than your national mages. The lore masters have 3 totally random magics. Enchantresses are very useful with they elemental knowledge. I got the Shadow seer in one of my MP games (astral 3 and ethereal) and I got them thanks to the indy lizardman shaman casting Arcane probing (nation: Pangaea).

edited, thanks micah

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Tribals & other poptype independent mages, magic and survival skills

• Druid - N1H1, Forest
• Lizard - S1N1, Swamp
• Bear Tribe Shaman - N1H1, 10% E, Forest, Mountain, Waste
• Wolf Tribe Shaman - N1, 10% D, Forest, Mountain, Waste
• Deer Tribe Shaman - N1, 10% A, Forest, Mountain, Waste
• Lion Tribe Witch Doctor - N1, 10% FEDN, Forest
• Jaguar Tribe Priest - N1H1, 10% FWSB, Forest
• Toad Tribe Shaman - W1, 10% N1, Swamp, Amphibian
• Jade Priestess - N1H1, 20% W, Forest
• Onyx Priestess - H2, 50% D, 10% E, Mountain
• Garnet Priestess - H1, 50% B, 10% F, Waste
• Crystal Priestess - H1, 50% S, 10% A
• Jade Sorceress - W1N1, 25% WEDN, Forest
• Onyx Sorceress - E1D1, 10% D, Mountain
• Garnet Sorceress - F1B1, 10% B, Waste
• Crystal Sorceress - A1S1, 10% S
• Horticulturist - N1, 20% WE
• Hoburg Priest - H1, 10% N

Judge for yourselves.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Out of all those the only ones i MIGHT consider would be amazon sorceresses

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Onyx, Garnet and Crystal Priestesses don't require labs, just temples, but have a good chance of having magic.

I've lucked out and gotten 2N Lion Tribe Witch Doctors, which is worth it if you don't have nature on your nationals.

For blood hunting, Garnet priestess or Sorceress?

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Is this for considering them as researchers?
You mention terrain but not stealth.
And leadership.
And the priests who can be gotten for the price of a temple which I want to build alot of anyway so a priest with a chance of magic (especially if stealthy) makes it a real consideration for me. More than a province that will give me just cheap priests.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Whoa - never heard of the Toad Tribe.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

If you can craft Skull Mentors, even the lowly Lion Tribe Witch Doctor turns into a good researcher. And they only need a Lab to be built.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Independent Atlanteans reminiscent of the Rain Warriors of LA Mictlan. I don't know if that poptype is active (as in, can be randomly found in a game), but it exists.


For considering them as researchers and other things they can potentially do. But I wasn't about to start listing all of their stats here, that's what the DB is for if someone wants to do an indepth analysis. As far as the priestesses go, depends on price if they are worth it and what magic they have vs nationals. Of that lot, only the hoburg priest and druid are stealthy and have both holy and potential other magics, iirc.

For research purposes, all of the shamans are sacred (the wictor is not), so they only cost half upkeep, if that is a consideration.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Assuming you're so rich in death gems that finding someone to hold your Skull Mentors is your research bottle neck. : )

Don't get me wrong, I love Skull Mentors, but determining cost-efficiency is not simple when it involves gems as well as gold.

-Max

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I'd argue crystal offers some of the only flying sacred archers in the game (good for helhiem or arcosephale, since they can couple up with other flying sacreds,) and their standard archers have the best precision of any EA inde archer (which is nice for those archer-less nations)

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I am surprised that noone has done the math on the start up cost for national mages vs. the start up cost for indie mages.

Sure, if you are short on gold, you are going to build a mage in your capital first, usually. For many nations, their best mages will be cap only.

After that, however, you have to choose between building a fortress, lab and maybe temple to produce your national mages or just a lab for most indie mages. Obviously, it's a bit more complicated than that since, on one hand, fortresses have other good uses but on the other hand, they also take time to build and have a large enough start up cost that you often can't always afford them as early as you would like.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

This is a real killer if your forced to use lightless lanterns, as after a couple of months your mages become horror marked. If you transfer the lantern on another mage to avoid losing it when the horror strikes, you can quickly run out of expendable mages.

I personally think lightless lantern should be reduced to construction 4 and the skull mentors put upto construction 6. This would be more balanced.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

take a look at the conceptual balance mod. SOMEONE HAD READ YOUR MIND.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I don't know. In a MP game with Ulm I started forging lightless lanterns at around turn 25'ish if I recall correctly, and ended up making about 40 of them at a guess. (didn't stop to count them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif), for a measly 2 gems each. By turn 60 I had finished my research and thrown them all away, and it's almost turn 70 now. In all that time (40+ turns * 40'ish lanterns = 1600 cumulative turns), while roughly over half of the mages carrying a lantern got horror marked, only one got attacked by a horror. Obviously you don't want to give them to your expensive capital-only heavy duty mage, but I wouldn't hesitate to put them on any other mage, and I definitely see no reason to start shuffling them around to avoid loosing the lantern.

Also, while I agree it's logical to change the research needed for lanterns and skulls around - after all 9RP > 6RP) I have to say that given the respective costs of both items, and given that generally speaking there are more uses for death gems than for fire gems, I would prefer to forge the lanterns in a situation where I had both kinds of magic.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

I don't agree that construction on skulls/lanterns should be swapped.

Yes, 9rp > 6rp, but skulls are twice the cose. 9rp for 10 gems = 0.9 rp/gem, while 6rp for 5 gems = 1.2 rp/gem. Unless you have a fantastic supply of otherwise-unused gems, you're better off putting your resources into lanterns.

And as Amahazir has pointed out, an occasional horror mark is not particularly problematic for small mages with small items.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

(the cost is also changed in CB...)

Re: Indep. Mages
 

How on earth can people agree there are about a dozen good uses for independent mages which they can list off the tops of their heads, and then conclude that they are "a waste"?

Just a rhetorical question. Seems to be the curse of the Dominions forums that people will constantly be incorrectly declaring things "useless" etc.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

i think the curse is that they disagree - the result, of course, of the highly variable way of playing and perfecting strategies in the game.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Despite the question being rhetorical, I'll answer anyhow. I think those coming up with the lists were poking fun at the OP (good naturedly, of course).

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Errm...however skulls are constuction 4, 360 research points, lanterns construction 6, 1,040 research points. The skull mentor will zoom ahead of you for some considerable time in research.

Thats one of the many reasons death magic is so great!

Re: Indep. Mages
 

For myself, I find the poptype mages more or less not worth the cost if I have the path on my national mages. That seems to be a consensus among the posters here.

However. There are certain indeps that are nothing less than amazing.

Ruby Amazons are great, because they give _anyone_ Blood Hunters, and not only that, sacred Blood hunters that compare favorably to national Blood hunters. For some Blood nations (e.g., ME Abysia), they are superior to any national summon.

In general, if I can build indep. mages (generally from sites, but I won't turn down poptypes) that have paths I don't, I will. Of course, I generally play on Luck-3, Magic-1 (and Growth), so I tend to get a lot of random gems from events. While painful, Empowerment is not out of the question to get them to a remote site-searching level.

Re: Indep. Mages
 

Yeah. Some sarcasm was used.

Looked to me everyone agreed they are useless if your nationals can do the same paths... but otherwise they rock.