Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Anything OK - .exe HEX edit, OOB edit, etc.

Problem - even slightly entrenched (forest included) infantry are immortal.

It is not matter how many solder dies or "inf. touch" preferences. Problem lays in hit frequency.

For examle - only yesterday i`m play Russia vs Finland 1939 (campain battle).

After 3x122mm off-map artillery (AO targetted) finn rifle squadr routed 3 hex. Auto-ralled by computer. And stay on ground (digged by my own artillery) for 12 turn under fire from 6(!) KV-1 (100-300m) WITHOUT ANY LOSSES or panics :-()
They even fire on my tanks every turn...

In such situation in original DOS SP1 infantry has hit on 3-6 shoot, get losses and supressions. After this - i`m moved 1-3 tanks close and eliminate them.

P.S. Sorry for my english - don`t understand how "check spelliing" works here.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Where those tanks stationary (ie NOT moving) when firing? If they moved they have their hit frequency greatly reduced.

Personally I think this is just a mater of tactics used. The issue of too powerful infantry comes up every now and again but I've never had problems taking care of infantry with armor...

Narwan

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

I am playing a long campaign using Russians and the Winter War battles are the toughest you will face. The reason you have such a tough time is the the Finns have a really hight experience and morale levels. In my battles I made extensive use of flamethrower and CS tanks and even the my tank losses were about 50% and this is with infantry supporting the tanks. Another thing which you want to look at is the experience and morale levels of your own troops. The early Russian troops war really poor. You have to rely on numbers to swamp your opponent. The tactics I use are have some light units out in front and have loads of artillery on call and when the barrage moves forward to follow with my line units.

Best
Tom

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

To Narwan: Tanks, of course, stay on place all 12 tuns :-)

To desh44: Not so simple. My tanks after Poland not green and they hit and kill finn tanks for 2-3 shoots. Quite normal, i`m think. And my para pioneer (+10exp +10morale), which transported by tanks and fired at finn infantry too - also missed. No such much as tanks, 1 hit in ~5 turn :-(

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

According to a poster in another thread, there is an option you can set to adjust the infantry vulnerability to taste, as well.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Where is it ? Option name ?

P.S. Option "inf.touch" in Preferences - no such thing.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

It's in the Preference screen --> "Inf Toughness"

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

See first post - this options useless. Without hits and losses infantry is wunderwaffe. Main problem is hit frequency. "Inf Toughness" balanced only "losses" part.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Have you had the same problem with other nations's infantry? I've been playing some PBeM's and have been able to rout infantry in trenches, even those in woods hexes. It takes some concentrated fire but I have done it without artillery or armor support. I occasionally have a stubborn squad that hangs on but I can usually surpress him enough to get in close and take him out.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

As Narwan said the issue of too Tough ( we've never had them called "Immortals" before ......) infantry comes up every now and again and every time we do we go back and runs some tests and in the end decide everything is exactly the way we wanted it to be. There will ALWAYS be cases where infantry holds on longer than what a player thinks is "normal" but if the game was simply BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG ( squad dead ) BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG ( squad dead ) BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG ( squad dead )

etc etc

the game would be predicatable and boring

I also fully agree with Narwan that..... "I think this is just a mater of tactics used". A Kv-1.... even 6 of them, are hardly big threats with their 76mm guns to dug in infantry. This is NOT "SP1". This is not a game set up to make the tank "king" where it destroys everything it it's path. You didn't include a save game for anyone to look so I have NO idea what your exact situation was but I have simuated it in tests ( Finn Infantry in woods with shell holes with 6 KV-1's) and I really don't see a problem. I ALSO do not see a problem with turning Infantry toughness down if you think they are too strong now. That option is NOT "useless" I just tested it and it works just fine.

I'm curious though. How many times have you played WinSPww2 so far ?

Don

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

have NO idea what your exact situation was but I have simuated it in tests ( Finn Infantry in woods with shell holes with 6 KV-1's) and I really don't see a problem. I ALSO do not see a problem with turning Infantry toughness down if you think they are too strong now. That option is NOT "useless" I just tested it and it works just fine.

I`m may send you my saves for each turn as examples. All thing exactly as first post says. SPWW2 with latest path. And yes, i`m save, set "inf.touch" in 30, play turn, load, set "inf. touch" in 250, play again - nothing changed. Only small reaction at 30 "inf.tough" as i`m may see - if infantry get hit and take losses - his losses heavier. IF it take hit, IF.

I'm curious though. How many times have you played WinSPww2 so far ?

Hmmm... It`s long, long story.

Long, long ago i`m played many campains with SP1 and SP2.
(And instantly threw in trash can SP3).

After this - i`m played several campain in MatrixGames SPWAW v7-v8. After several situation such as fired 2-3 152mm shell from KV-2 at germ.inf in 300m and infantry get NO ONE loses - i`m erase this game too.

Now i`m hear about windows version of SP1 and SP2. Download and play. After i`m get described situation - 6 KV-1 about ten turn don`t kill any finn.inf - i`m think - may be original SP1 forever ? :-)

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Nikolay,

I have been playing SPWW2 since version 5 and WinSPWW2 since it came out. Infantry are not immortal.

Just to prove a point do this.

Set Preferences to:
Battle Points 225
Map size 20x20

Do a One up Battle:
January 1940

Player 1: Soviet (Human, Human, Human)
Player 2: Finland (Computer, Human, Computer)
(the parens are the buttons top to bottom)

Soviet purchase 1 Heavy Tank Platoon and 1 Heavy Tank (Kv-1)
Finland purchase 1 Kivaari Joukkue (Infantry last, Heavy Infantry middle button) and just to be fair if you wish buy 2 Pst Miehet /Ski units with satchel charges.

That was a scary battle. I lost 3 of my KV-1's to imbolization and one lost it's main gun, but other then the damage I lost no tanks (of my 4 KV-1's) and only 3 men, where as I killed 33 Finns.

No uber Infantry here, Infantry is not immortal.

It's all about how you play the game.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Well that's very interesting. When I set infantry thoughness to 30 they die like flies in comparision to the standard 100% setting but you seem to suggest the same thing.........
So you DO see a change when it's turned down to 30. So why say "nothing changed"?

Just what exactly to you think you should be seeing ?

I'm curious ..... are you basing all of your opinions on what you think the game is doing or not doing by the "Hit chance" message reports that appear at the top of the screen?

Don

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Yes, "inf. touch" DO changes. But i`m say this first - changes, which "inf.touch" do - not effective about this situation. Yes, witch "inf.touch" 30 infantry "dies as flies". On plain terrain. Or road. But witch any small entrechment - hit chance quite low.

May be add new preferences regulator for casual players ?

About "hit chance" - it no label "XX%" on screen in targeting time. It is "weapon fired"/"target hit" percentage.

And i`m have questions - is "hit chance report message" apply also for "splash" damage such as 152mm from KV-2 fired at digged infantry squadr or digged AT-gun ?

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

OO I like this discussion :-) I've been trying the last few battles of a German long campaign with inf now on 70% toughness on both sides, cos I got so bored with hammering 200 man Russian infantry charges across open ground, with tanks, MG's and heavy mortars and they're losing 3 men a turn. I ran out of HE trying to kill them off and theyre still taking pot shots at my guys who are in cover, while they're supposedly pinned or retreating, and have several tonnes of lead falling on them. I guess my guys were greener to start with and that might explain a bit of it, but now most of them arent and even at 70%, infantry are still pretty tough cookies, especially from close range, high calibre HE. Stationnary Stug42 fires 3 rounds with 105mm at Russian infantry section moving at full speed at 50mtrs which pins them and that's it. Surely someone would have at least got wounded? At least now they dont charge full tilt across a field, taking no casualties and still managing to surpress tanks at 300 metre + ranges.
I'm sure it varies a helluva lot depending on nation, time of combat, experience etc... Absolutely agree that no-one(?) wants a "Tank V Inf= Inf Wiped Out" game, so 30% would be going way too far - they'd all be dying out having a few rude words shouted at them. But as said, even at 70% they are still well hard :-) Right, that's my tupenny worth...

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

No. The "hit chance" is an averaged hit chance for the initial shot. The splash damage is determined afterward.

Don

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Yes, we see reports like this from people new to the game every once in awhile and on the rare occasion we see a save game demonstrating this we test it and don't see what the fuss was about or it's the result of too many of one type of defence. Seriously, don't you think as designers if we tested the game and couldn't deal with the situations as described we wouldn't make changes ? We don't just code and toss things out "hoping for the best"

The preferences screen is there so people CAN change the character of the game by lowering or raising things like infantry toughness. You will even find people on this forum who have played fo some time who are playing at higher than normal infantry toughness settings. TRY a game at 30 toughness. It might suit your style of play better. Don't just assume that because it's "30" it's too low without at least playing 1 game that way.

Don

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

100% is about average, I am thinking of moving up to 125% I've switched my campaigns to play at Harder (hardest -25% or whatever). Normal is just too easy.

Again, set it all to 100%, give your self and the AI 225 and select Jan 40 and pick the forces I selected at the beginning of this and you will see the KV-1 kill the Infantry pretty easily, of course if you run up to a bunch of woods and let the Crunchies hop on and load you with a demo charge you get what's coming.

When the DOS version was out I used to think the AI was hard, until I started to PBEM and got my *** kicked royally. I have not PBEM in a bout a year so I have been reckless with the AI, but still....

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

This is something I find hard to figure. I know is a matter of morale but I´ve learned that even when pinned or retreating, enemy infantry can still take shots at you, sometimes they even have an amazing high hit chance for their status, so my conclusion is that status report could be misleading, a lot of times I´ve seen a pinned/retreating squad inflicting casualties among my advancing troops.

Keep Cool
Roberto

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Pinned guys fire back (usually). Retreating/routed guys don't.

Narwan

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

You´re right regarding routed squads. Unfurtunately I don´t have a saved game to prove my allegations but I could swear it happened last night for example when playing scenario No. 11, specifically with the british rifle squad inside the house at 31,18, those retreating MFs fired back at one of my squads closing into an adjacent hex. I´ll try to reproduce it.

But still, what "pinned" is suposed to mean then if they´re going to fire back almost normally? lower accuracy?

Keep Cool
Roberto

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

From my observations, yes, lower accuracy. And less shot opportunities, esp. for secondary weapons once the unit took damage.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

They´re still a threat at close distance though, I can tell you that from my observations.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Of course, that' why they do bother firing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif But they are less likely to inflict serious casaulties when compared to ready troops.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

In my experience direct fire from tank or MG is effective enough to fix infantry in place. After that mortars or artillery can route it. At least in early Long Campaign Russia vs German experienced German infantry could be dealt with that way. It seems to me indirect fire is more effective vs infantry in the game engine.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Pinned means a unit is unable, or more often unwilling, to move due to the perceived risk of getting hit. These troops have gone for cover, exposing less of themselves but being less effective in firing back too. In a firefight a troopers natural instinct is to stay behind the cover and not move. They'll fire back from behind their cover, but they're not ready to leave it.
They'll have lower accuracy, less shot opportunities and reduced sighting. That last one means they'll react much slower to events around them.

Could it be that there was a second squad in the hex with the retreating squad that you hadn't spotted yet? That could have been the one firing back and not the one retreating. I've seen that happen often enough.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Could be, anyway thanks for the answer, very enlightning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

Narwan might have a point, often even squads reduced to 2-3 men do rally enough (if being leftv alone) to start effective resistance against a careless foe. Lost once a pair of A-13's to a diehard remnant of Italian rifle squad.

Re: Immortal Infantry - How raise HIT chance ?
 

I know, as a matter of fact infantry toughness is one of the most debated issues about this game AFAIK, anyway the issue here is if retreating infantry can fire. I could swear I´ve seen retreating infantry firing at an adjacent hex just as MajorDisaster said (I started quoting him)It could be that there was an unseen squad in the same hex just as narwan said, could be. If I get to reproduce it I´ll post the files.

Keep Cool
Roberto