CD key violation?!
 

I just got a CD key violation for a game that I am hosting, telling me that I am using the same key in multiple installations.

I do have 2 installations (home and work), but I never use them at the same time. I did my move from home, and then had to switch 2 other players to AI from work.

I have purchased sufficiently many keys to make all my activities legal. It was just more convenient for me to do a 'tar/untar' from one machine to the other than to go through the install/patch process again. And I obviously forgot to update the 'key' file, but my questions are technical:

- Why is this a CD key violation? What are the precise rules and where are they documented?
- Why didn't it warn me instead of accepting my turns, and then just not executing my moves? This can ruin a whole game. :-(

I hate DRM and technocracy *grr*

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Note: All of the following post is with the caveat of AFAIK, meaning this is how I think it works but I could have gotten some things wrong.

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a CD key violation is when more than one turns are submitted from more than one IP address with the same key, which would explain your situation nicely. As long as all installations have different legitimate keys, there should be no problem.

As for why it accepted your turns, the check is performed at the hosting phase, not in turn submission phase. Therefore it cannot warn you.

Especially in situations where it is the same player's various installations done with the method you have used, it is the user's responsibility to see to it his systems are in order. It is not the responsibility of either Illwinter, Shrapnel or the party hosting the game to babysit every participant and clean up after a mess that is not their own making.

As for why DRM is to some extent necessary, this thread is a perfect example. In an ideal world, it wouldn't be, but reality is far from ideal.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I've heard of this before. Another host set one of the player to AI and run in the same issue.

Did you use the master password to set them to AI or a players password?

When using master password thats a really big bug and edi should do it on the bug list.

Setting players to AI via the master password should never trigger a CD key violation!

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Also, it would be nice to see issues like this reported in the bug discussion thread and even to get PMs about it so I can report them instead of needing to find out by trawling forum threads.

So, detailed bug description, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Well - looks like I figured this out the hard way.

BTW, there is absolutely no connection between a legal license and DRM stuff. The DRM stuff, even the fact that there is a license key, is not even mentioned in the license. It also does not say anywhere that when I have two licenses, that I have to use two different license keys on installation.

They are separate topics. DRM restrictions will have no effect in court, except perhaps when they violate "fair use".

So, concerning your point about Illwinter does not need to care: I am having problems with a part of the software that is not properly documented and leads to faulty behaviour. So, asking for documentation and suggesting UI improvements by asking for proper error messages is not absurd.

I can understand and accept that Illwinter introduces DRM stuff (though I do not like it, because it restricts what I can do with the software). But then making it behave somewhat nicer would be great.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

As I understand it, it goes like this...

The game compares incoming turns from the nations. If it sees the same IP from different machines then it considers it a violation (how is it supposed to know otherwise?)

The problem seems to come up when the host sets multiple AIs, especially if the host also plays a nation in the game. Especially if the host does the ai setting and then plays from a different machine.

It cant be that the master password alone will skip the key check since that would be quickly abused. I can agree that setting a nation AI should probably skip the check if possible.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

One other detail that would be great is if the binary could abort hosting on a CD key violation, as it does with the wrong client version now.

This would prevent stale turns and give the players the opportunity to clean up the mess. And this should be really easy to implement, as the check is already there and a hosting termination is easy to code (printf("Some text\n"); exit(1);).

Re: CD key violation?!
 

The license key is not mentioned in the software. However, there is absolutely no requirement to do so. The license states that only one copy may be installed per license and since the installations are not media dependent (i.e. don't need a CD in the drive to play), there MUST be some mechanism of preventing large scale pirating off of one single CD. Hence unique license keys per each license. That concept is rather damned obvious. Much like Microsoft has individual license keys and corporate volume license keys, except Dom3 does not have any VLKs.

The DRM stuff is not referred to in the license, if for no other reason than that it was added later in a patch to make the life of people using pirated copies harder.


You're going to have a pretty damned hard time showing how the Dom3 DRM restrictions hamper fair use rights since the license agreement stipulates only one install per game.

Doing a second install on a machine you own and using that for SP only and playing any MP games from a different machine would technically be a license violation anyway, so fair use does not really enter into it.

A request for documentation is not unreasonable. But see my first paragraphs in this post. Also, I don't know where you come from and how used you are to the extremely litigious culture of the US (and the attendant excruciating license agreements), but most of us from the Nordic countries have little patience for spelling everything out for people to the level of "Placing your hand in the fire will cause burn injuries".

That said, whether or not the documentation and license agreements will be updated is up to Shrapnel and Illwinter. I have nothing to do with that as such.

That can probably be said of nearly any software you care to name. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Since the players are the ones providing the infrastructure for MP games, and since we often use a second install on a machine dedicated for hosting, it would be nice if we received some slack on this issue for that.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I can sympathize with that, RZ, and see where you are coming from.

Where MP tech issues in setting up etc are concerned, I know little. If hosting machines were excluded from the check, it would do the trick, I suppose, but don't quote me on that. It's something that Johan K and the Shrapnel tech people are better equipped to answer if they do so at all.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

As I understand it thats how its supposed to work now. The host doesnt check its own key against the players. That allows the host to play in their own games, even from a different machine. But apparently its a problem if you go in as a player to do something like set a player as AI.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I don't fully understand. I bought a new computer and reinstalled the game. I had no issue connecting to network games. I was expecting to have some kind of problem. but i didnt.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

To be clear:
on any given turn,
different IP address, same key = violation?

So if I set up a game on my home machine, play one nation from my laptop, and one nation on the tower (which share a key), then try to host, I'll get violated?

This could cause a problem for people playing multiple nations on the same server, if they have a dynamic IP address, I suppose, but that's pretty unlikely, unless their IP address changed crazy fast - and who plays more than one nation at once remotely?

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Some do. I see them on my server.
But the main non-pirate problem seems to be when the host does host things, the game sees it as the same key used multiple. I have reported that today to see if something can be done about it

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Out of interest, does the license say anything about hotseat play?

So far I get the impression that Dom3 is far more bothered about piracy than other games. It's not something I agree with, but it's up to the people who made it. I do know if I wanted to play with my wife I wouldn't buy another copy, not at that price.

So hypothetically, installing on her laptop as well as my computer would be a violation and may/would result in the CD-Key getting scrapped? (via some online or ingame check that you aren't willing to discuss) But would the two of us playing on one computer hotseat style be a violation?

As I say, this is all just out of interest so don't start lighting any pirate burning fires.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Far more bothered? Really? Id say far less bothered. An ascii serial file thats named "key". Real security conscious.

Hotseat is totally allowed. Even lan if you can figure out how.

Hypothetically installing it on your machine for you to play with and your wifes laptop for her to play with would be a violation. Of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Well bugging games with bad CD keys, revoking a CD key if one friend gives it to another etc - that seems a lot more than most companies do.

The 'key' file is also pretty useless. It helps people re-enter their CD key if they get it wrong, but apart from that I don't see how it displays a lack of security or a softer attitude towards casual piracy/game sharing.

Regardless, what would be the point of playing LAN with one CD-key if only you are allowed to use it? I'm also curious how hotseat with two or more people can be allowed but not two installations on two computers at the same location for SP purposes.

Anyway, no complaints from me. I don't entirely agree with the stuff being done to mess with pirates or the attitude towards them but as I said, it's your game.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Are you kidding? It's $50. What is that, a tank of gas? A pair of shoes? The only entertainment I have gotten a better (hours of fun)/(dollars spent) ratio out of is roguelikes, and that's because they are free.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I don't rate Dom3 as highly as some of the loons on this website. Which is to say I don't think it's the second coming of christ. I also live in China and 50 dollars isn't peanuts to me.

But most importantly, I have to compare the cost of a second copy of dom3 to the cost of other video games. There are a lot of other games which are equally worthy which cost a lot less. I'm happy with one copy of Dom3, there's no way I'd buy another just to play LAN with my wife.

You may think it's silly for me not to buy another copy. I personally think your response of "but it's so cheap!" is daft. Yes, compared to buying a new house, it's cheap. Yes, I've probably eaten meals that cost more than Dom3. No, it isn't cheap for a PC game at all, particularly if you're buying a second copy. I try not to compare apples and oranges.

PS- I make mods for this game and I hope that adds value for other people. I know it does for me. The modding aspect was a factor in me buying it.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

What companies are those? You have to be kidding. What company using serial keys does any different than that?

I didnt say that. I said it wasnt all that much effort. It doesnt mean they condone it.

Ummm... because one looks the same as pirate and the other doesnt? They dont mind hotseat play. Whether they mind two machines by the same person for solo play I have no idea but if it shows up then it looks the same as a pirate. If it cant be let thru the protection then its out of the running. Its not like they have to allow it.

Well you did say you live in china. Its a very different subject there from what I understand.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Ah. Sorry about that. I tend to think of most people's expenses as being in $/Yen/Euros, and you are right that $50 is not the same for someone living in China or India. My apologies.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Ive seen that often enough. I like the game enough to buy a copy for me to play but not enough to buy another copy for two people to play. No problem. I know alot of games like that.

Of course I dont bother trying to change the rules on it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I'm not pro piracy, just for the record, just not anti it.

And yeah, it's very different out here. In China almost everything is 'pirated' from PC games to watches to clothing to medicine. Of course people can get the real stuff too, but the price tag is hard to stomach for most.

Gandalf: There are a huge number of games that work just fine with pirated serial codes. It's not worth me listing them. CD keys and codes also don't tend to get auto-revoked if two different computers are detected to be using them. Since we can't discuss exactly how the key revoking works and you and Edi advised someone in another thread that if they used a friends CD key it would be trashed,... well to me that seems to be much harder on casual game sharing than 90% of games out there. Lending a friend your game and CD key for them to play single player is piracy, but it's not the sort of thing that other games trash the CD key and bug the entire game over.

Why did you even mention LAN play if it's likely to get your CD key revoked?

This is making me wary of putting dom3 on another computer that I own, even if I uninstalled it on this one. What's to stop this automatic protection (which I know nothing about) deciding I'm a pirate and nuking my key because it remembered a different IP address or physical location?

Re: CD key violation?!
 

Same license key from different IPs for different nations in the game for same turn, Sombre. Does that make any more sense? Because that'd be roughly the only way for it to work and not screw up everything for people who have dynamic IP addresses (like practically everyone in Finland is unless they have business internet connections from the operators).

Re: CD key violation?!
 

If that's the case it seems much more sensible. It would still stop lan games using the same key (which are considered piracy unless I'm wrong). But it wouldn't mess with reinstalling the game on a different computer.

On the other hand it wouldn't prevent disc sharing piracy either (when you pass your key and disc to a friend/relative so they can play SP).

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I've got no idea how CD-keys get added to the list of bad keys that trigger the piracy protection. But I doubt it's as easy or as automated as "trigger the CD key violation in a mp game and your key gets revoked."

That stops those orders from being used and has been reported here several times but never followed by "and now I can't play at all"

So I wouldn't worry about transferring the game to a different computer, or even installing on another computer for your own use. (The license allows that right? I was using another machine as a server for Dom2 for awhile and playing from my main desktop. I don't think there's a problem with that. Or even having a copy on a laptop, so you can play turns while away from home.)

Now if you give your CD-key away to all your friends and post it on warez sites, that'll get it on the bad list, I'm sure.

Re: CD key violation?!
 

I'm not going to debate copy protection and piracy here. All I will say, is for those of you who think Dom's copy protection is so much more intrusive or strict than other games, you obviously haven't played many games. We actually have a better policy than a lot of games out there (for ex. in general our games are a one player at a time license, not a one computer at a time license), but yes, if you and another person (no matter who it is, spouse or not) want to play simultaneously, then you need to buy two copies.

This is not a new phenomenon folks, Richard got me into playing Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction years ago and when he convinced me to play we bought me a second copy. For those of you unfamiliar, that meant buying two games..Diablo 2 and the add on Lord of Destruction...for each of us. At the time that was about $60-$70 for each of us, which is a large expense but we got hours and hours of enjoyment playing so it was definitely worth it (the ratio of the cost of a movie to the hours of enjoyment compared to the same ration for the game makes the game very very cheap when you think about it). Since then one of our copies of D2 is worthless as we didn't make a back up and a CD got cracked (our fault)....because the online site checks both sets of serials upon installation and compares them to the CDs inserted, we can't use the good copy of D2, even with the valid keycode for the broken CD and then install the second copy of LOD on top of it, so we will be buying a new copy of D2 in order to play again.

Sorry guys, our copy protection is really not over the top at all.