LOS and spotting
 

I am sure both of these are explained in the manual and on the forum but I'm being a bit lazy about a couple of questions.

1: Trees blocking LOS; how many trees between you and the enemy will block LOS and how high are trees assumed to be from the point of view of blocking somebody on a hill?

2: Why can I never see enemy infantry untill it's far too late? OK not quite true but they seem to hide very well and I don't feel that I get the same advantage in that the Ai always seems to know where my troops and guns are all the time

3 height of hills. what is this measured in for game purpose; relates q1 above.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Hi
My understand is that..

1. It varies. Sometimes one tree will block LOS, sometimes you can see through two or three.
Trees do not have "height". Look at the height read-out of the hex itself to know the height of a hex.

2. The AI has no advantage. It is just your perception that they see you more than you see them.
It is possible that you are being outplayed by the computer :-)
If you move too fast, you will see less. If your units are inexperienced, they will see less. If the enemy is experienced, he will hide well and see you earlier.
There are many parameters to seeing and being seen.
IMHO, the main issue is that players tend to move their units too fast and then expect them to have seen everything in the general area.
Remember, if you use the full movement allocation of, say, and infantry unit...they are considered to be sprinting.
It is hard to spot a well hidden sniper, or scout unit in some trees 150m away when you are sprinting in full battle kit and in a different direction.

Slow down and you'll see more :-)

3. I think it is not meant to have a hex height = x meters.
It is a relative measurement.
I tend to think of it in meters. Height 1 = 10m
It works for me.

Good luck bro
SGT

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Yeah, it definitely pays to move slow and having some scouts in your core, (mind you, it's a challenge keeping them alive). With increased experience they spot more for you as a campaign goes on.
But why I sympathise and what I do think is a little bananas is that flak guns and other seriously large hardware is often invisible in OPEN country until it's only a few 100 metres away, Sure, infantry can lie prone and be very difficult to spot in bumpy grassland - but a Flak gun? Have you seen how tall those things really are and what sort of silhouette they have on top of a hill? Fine, in woods buildings etc, they could be very well camouflaged, and small AT like PAk38/6 pounder are very low profile so easily hidden in a cornfield etc.., but an 88mm stood in a field? I saw a PAK43 in the flesh recently - it is seriously BIG. You couldnt miss it even if you were on a speeding motorcycle - and again I stress the Open Country.. forests, bushes and the like, fair enough, an experienced unit could hide a cruise liner.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Open country ain't that open. There is usually enough variation in the ground, patches of scrub or slightly taller grass to hide all kinds of nasties in a 50x50m area. Look at a chunk of real life ground, figure out what kind of hex it would be overall then try and find the hiding places for infantry, guns, tanks etc.

Half the effort of camoflage is not to make something invisible but to make it look like something harmless. I agree that the 88 flak on the fully rotating platform and the barn door gunshield is pretty damn obvious. The key here is to ensure that Ivan thinks it is a barn door from 1000 meters, asks "What is that?" from 500 meters and only figures out what it really is when well in range of the dug in protecting infantry.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

A very big part of the problem for some players is the game scale. They see this......

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...amereality.png

and forget that it represents this....

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...93-reality.png

And those green areas are fields not golf greens

Don

Re: LOS and spotting
 

ha ha .. yeah .. but I can still see you ;-) That only underlines the issue - it's a chocking huge area of featureless grassland with a single ten foot tall lump in the middle of it. I guess you could cover it in foilage or disguise it as haystack - wouldnt stand out at all. Has anyone seen Monty Python sketch - "How not to be seen"? I've seen photos of camo'd AFV's deployed in woods and you wouldnt see them until you walked into them; I've read about Russian infantry lying motionless under carefully dug turf etc, but even very lumpy bumpy tufty grassland isn't going to hide an 88' and its crew.
I think the real problem for some players (me included) isnt so much scale, (though that admittedly takes some getting used to), but expecting the AI to deploy on reverse slope or in a forest or behind/in buildings etc,(anywhere sensible), but instead it parks a couple of flak guns in the middle of a huge field, (and we're not talking tall grass or wheatfields), and even stationnary infantry "cant see", (in the age of binoculars?). I mean, there's COVER and there's err... cover - where you really gonna put a large gun/tank? If a plain grassland hex actually means mini hillocks and furrows, then something not quite right with some of the terrain representation? The opposite problem is that aircraft seem especially good at finding tanks in forests or heavily built up areas where they'd be nigh on impossible to see at 150 mph in the first place let alone fire rockets at.
They're not huge deals but happen a fair bit. Mind you, other games Ive tried have a similar (or even more serious) issue especially with static AT weapons. Maybe that's a way to balance the game a bit? It has certainly made me value recon units - but maybe that's the point...

Re: LOS and spotting
 

In the old version (I have yet to see it happen in the new Win version) my most vexing spotting issue was to sit in the same hex as an AT gun and still not see it, even after it had been visible a turn or two before. It is almost stealth technology!

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Good point although it was much the same story with 3" motars and their crews.

Also where the scale is concerned; I understand 1 hex 50 metres/yards lets not get down to the difference in inches and millimetres; you are talking about two hexes being a football field ( in rough terms and regardless of what you call football in your part of the world) and a squad of 11; 13;or 15; depending on the game stands out like a sore thumb.

Secondly I suspect that MajorDisaster may have hit on the key to the problem. only the Ai troops are equipted with virtual binouclars while we have to make do with our limited eye from above? DRG, possible?

Re: LOS and spotting
 

even wrote:

a squad of 11; 13;or 15; depending on the game stands out like a sore thumb.

Not likely, I was sitting in M1A1 in a loaders hatch and I did not see the ****ers until they were 15 feet away, too much [censored] was happening and we were killing the big fish, I just happen to hear small arms on the side of the tank, popped up and [censored] there they were. All tankers hate infantry, especially infantry with AT weapons, the only thing we hate worse is [censored] jets with bombs, kinda hard to hide tank from a big jet with laser guided bombs.

Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late. I think it's called self-preservation, camouflage and ambush.

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

That has always been my understanding since I first played Panzerblitz in the 70's - open ground is NOT billiard flat despite the graphical representation.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

On one excercise, I was leading a section sized patrol back in. Our last task was to sweep the company fall back position - part of which was an open area about 50x50m with patches of grass to knee high, a little scrub and a few fallen logs. A kneeling person would be completely visible. We were stopped by a "friendly" master warrant officer as we approached the area and were specifically and repeatedly ordered not to sweep the area. Under protest we went back to our lines. Of course the obvious happened - we fell back right into the enemy platoon with support weapons hiding in the open ground we were ordered not to sweep. 8 pairs of eyeballs saw nothing.

I was later able to return the favour when I was bartending at the senior NCO's mess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'm very happy I never had to play for keeps and very grateful to all those who have done so or who are doing so right now.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

I've never seen billiard flat "natural" fields either and absolutely agree that infantry and low profile weapons can be hidden/blended just about anywhere, those little furrows & burrows youre talking about. But a soldier is flexible, (bends to fit), and very small when prone, so can do that.
My point is about TALL hardware - if the landscape is devoid of buildings, trees, incredible tall grass, banks, holes or any other significant feature, you havent got many ways of disguising a medium tank, AA gun, howitzer, ... etc. And if a Sherman is disguised to look like a haystack etc, then you would in reality be able to see "the haystack", then decide what to do about it, which of course is beyond any games similar to this (thankfully). A single haystack in the middle of an area of uncultivated land might just arouse a little curiousity?

This says bit of video says so much ... cracks me up everytime :-)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...70357062149413

Re: LOS and spotting
 

NO, the AI does not have any kind of spotting advantage (or arty or any advantage over a human player) whatsoever. We have told people this repeatedly but the minute the AI does something "Smart" out come the accusations that we've given the AI an advantage. The AI DOES have a number of DISADVANTAGES such as not being able to use a priority arty hex or the adjust fire capabilty that humans have.



Don

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Thanks Don, do you think it might be possible for you to monitor both forums for us at all times and repeat this endlessly until everyone understands it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Don

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Meaning....


Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.



and

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.


and

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

and so on until


Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

rinse

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.


repeat

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

and wash

Again, if you don't like LOS and spotting the way it's set at 100%, then don't ***** and say it's broke, change the preference to something that suits you, if you get spotted to easy turn it down, if it's too hard turn it up. Same with the toughness if you think the game is too hard, turn it down, or if it's way too easy turn it up. I have the AI at least a 10 point advantage over me, cause it's too easy to beat.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

I'll, try my best.....

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Does that mean you can change the preferences then ? ;-)
Hey, I think a lot of the (subjective) comments on here are observations on how the game plays "out of the box, set to default". Isnt subjective comment what forums are about or have I got that wrong? The fact that you can tune it to suit is wonderful, (especially for this game genre), but I guess I have felt that's kind of "cheating" when I play any sort of game? Anyway, Im seriously and sadly engrossed in a campaign on the Russian front, with the current battle on a knife edge, so far I'm from thinking the game is broken, (wouldnt waste my time if it was... ) :-) Hell, I only got 13 tanks in my core and the ground is full of T34, rumbling under Katyusha barrage and the air full of Shturmovik - gulp!! - it's gonna be a long day...

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Didn't mean to ***** and put people offside; and if I have I apologise.

Likewise I understand the infernal lack of visibility from afv's and don't have a problem with that but rather the situation were a MG or gun crew is stationary for seven or eight turns looking across a valley and still takes three or four turns to work out which hex a enemy unit has opened up from.

Also I would again like to thank the people that reply to my posts; always helpful; and would also like to thank the people that have developed this game to the point where it is both frustrating and addictive.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Actually it was the bit about not seeing the infantry until they were 15 feet away and how "Most infantry (at least the smart ones) don't want you to see them, until it's too late." that I found the most informative

However, "adjust the preferences if you have a problem" works for me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Normally "discussions" about game systems tend to involve people who have never been in a tank, in combat.

What was the "terrain" like in the incident you described ? Desert scrub ?

Don

Re: LOS and spotting
 

It is impossible to build a game of this complexity that could suit all players all the time. The Newbie playing for the first time is not anywhere near the level as someone playing for years. If we only built it for one end of the spectrum we lose the other end because it's too hard for one guy and too easy for the other THATS why those preferences are in the game and why the game is set up for somewhere in the middle. If you buy a motorcycle and ride it for the first time do you think you'd be capable of racing the Isle of Man ? If the game is too easy or too hard THATS what the preferences are for it's not "cheating" if the designers encourage people to use the feature.

Don

Re: LOS and spotting
 

"Normally "discussions" about game systems tend to involve people who have never been in a tank, in combat."

Sorry, I dont realise that was the rules here - Keep your mouth shut about gameplay unless you're ex-forces?
(sigh), my comment about "cheating" was a purely personal view on gaming in general. Again, hush ma mouth...
But you're totally right! If I had serious pot shots taken at me, the last thing I'd wanna do is try to re-enact the experience. Having my butt roasted for politicians' Real Wargames? Ha, ha you gotta be kidding me :-) Nah, I just havent grown out of playing toy soldiers... or arguing(joke).
OFF TOPIC - And the TT is for lunatics - all those dry stone walls? I done Mad Sunday a few times - scarier than your 1st solo lap of the Nurburgring ;-)

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Well "MajorDisaster" if you want to take a comment I made to one person and turn it on yourself be my guest. If your names not dlasov that remark wasn't directed at you personally.

You are free to express whatever opinions on the game you have if you are "ex-forces" or not but if someone who HAS been in a tank, in combat, comments on an issue that holds a BIT more water than someone who hasn't...... yes?

Don't expect me to sit back and not respond when I think you don't understand something which is what I feel is happening here. You said it feels like cheating to adjust the preferences, I said don't let it feel that way, that's why the controls are there as we have been pointing out to people for years.

Don

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Hi all
I might add something. Part of our training was (in full kit and olive greens) to pour a bottle of water over us, roll around in the dirt and hide 20 paces in front of the instructors I hid in plain sight in the shadow of a thin bush the size of a crouching man, no one saw me. The next part of the excercise is to inch forward which most of us did without being detected however a quick move makes you visible immediately. The point being that its movement that the human eye sees. It is amazing what you cant see until it moves. The game models this very well. Again fatigue always plays a part. After an 8 kilometer patrol in full kit in 45 degrees celsius you dont see a lot. I magine it becomes the same after a few hours being jolted around in a vehicle going cross country at speed.
Best Chuck.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

I noticed something very similar when I was in school as a kid. Some kids were playing hide and seek near the bycicle stands. One was hiding behind two bicycles parked just in front of the stands. Now two bycicles are just some frame work and weels with a whole lot of air in between. Not much to hide behind. But I didn't see him till I almost walked into him. Now that startled me. Okay you say, I wasn't paying attention so I was suprised. True but I did look right at the bikes as they were in my way (as I said in front of the stands instead of parked in the stands). When looking at them I didn't look PAST them. Your mind tends not to. Just like you tend to look at a window at first instead of through it, or at a tree line instead of into the treeline. The best part though was that when I was startled the other kid doing the seeking looked straigth at me and the boy who was kneeling at my feet. The 'seeker' had a straight LOS from about 50-60 feet away to the 'hider' who was only hidden by the two bikes and he did NOT see him. He was actively looking for people and did not spot him. And I checked it a bit later, if you know he's there he's clearly visible. But you tend to see what you think you ought to see, not what's really there. Sometimes hiding in plain sight really works. Logic isn't the only factor here.

Narwan

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Desert scrub, yes.

The thing that most war gamers fail to realize and the one important piece missing from the Steel Panthers games is dynamic time. What this means is that in the game world you move one unit at a time, and when [censored] hit's the fan, you can adjust a hell of lot easier then in reality, likewise in reality, it's for keeps so your not going to be flying down a roadway full throttle (unless the [censored] General in charges gives your platoon of M1A1's direct orders to do so) trying to draw fire, but more seriously the whole freaking company moves at a certain time and fires as a unit together.

There is no rally phase, prep-fire phase, you move I move, it's all at once and when a tank gets smoked in reality the crew is probably dead and you knew them...and if Steel Panthers started doing that [censored], I probably would quite the game (too close for comfort), but it's a game and you to realize I have been war gaming since I was 11 in 78 and have always loved the military, until I joined and had to clean the ****ters and other things...been there done that, now I can kill Germans and Russians in a war I was not part of and it's recreational. I do have SPMBT, but it holds very little interest for me.

Anyway I'll shut up now, I have talked to much...later

Re: LOS and spotting
 

On topic

LOS from a tank

One tank is a sitting duck.

Driver has (if he is lucky) 3 periscopes about 2 to 2.5 inches in height and six to 10 inches in length to see the world to drive in, that is looking for [censored] not to hit, don't want to throw a track in the heat.

Gunner has one freaking hole to look through, but his job is to hunt for [censored] to kill.

Loader see [censored] unless on a road march and want to expose their noggin to buzzers, there job is to feed the beast.

TC has to be the eyes and keep his wing man in view, 2 are better then one.

Plt.Leader has to move the platoon and keep them together 4 are better then 2 (plus he has to keep his boss (CO) off his ***).

really that's it.

Now throw in lots and lots of smoke, arty all over the place, night, and other bad guys trying to kill you (remember you really don't want to die, so your amped) and some other [censored] Col. wants you to do such and such which is really not a safe thing, but...

Now your going 35-40, Narwin is right, [censored] that moves can be seen, but from a moving tank it's still not easy to spot, the gunner or TC has the best chance of spotting stuff, the only bad guys the drivers look for (now a days anyways) is smoke, smoke and a flash is very bad, and everybody better hang on tight, cause he is swerving, smoke and flash is bad, AT tow, etc. You guys think we drive around overrunning infantry, no freaking way, we park it and blast them bastards with all we got, infantry are killing bastards, the only thing worse then crunchies is freaking jets, and in the last two wars we were the ones that had jets. Arty not so bad for tankers, but crunchies hate it....

done

Re: LOS and spotting
 

And Sorry to harp on but

can somebody explain with the above how a stationary infantry squard thats in a forest hex and hasn't fired can be spotted and fired on from 450 metre's (nine hexes)?

Or suggest how I can see what the XXXXXXX was closer than that to see the unit?

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Hi
Hopefully I'm not talking out of turn, but I look at situations like the spotted squad as just bad luck. I like to think that one of the poor slobs had a tarantula walk across his neck or put his hand on a snake and just got spooked. It's mighty easy to spot someone who's jumping and hollering.
I've had some of my units make some great spots like that.
I figure it all evens out in the end.

Mike

Re: LOS and spotting
 

I'm sure that it does even out but that post was a heat of the moment thing after a battle that makes continuing that particular long campaign not worth the effort; and had me tempted to delete the programme and find something better to do. At the moment most of the luck running my way in these games is bad.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

evan,

if your luck is bad and you feel that the game is way to hard (you should not feel like deleting a game like this if it feels too hard and difficult for you), instead start by turning all the user preference settings down to 50% or so and see how it goes first.

There used to be a fine Italian Gentleman in the old DOS group, I wish he were still around, he was very good at teaching new people things and coaching them along. It's been a couple of years and I can't remember his call sign, but he was a very nice chap.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

evan,

88 mm guns in the open... I set up in editor a sample position (meeting engagement) of 4 guns in the basic flat green terrain and advanced against them german infantry platoon (one hex per turn, the slowest speed at which they are best spotting). They discover the 88s at 400 to 350 metres. Flak gunners discovered the infantry at the same time, but too late to open fire (though I ordered them to fire on anything within 1000 metres).

Now take russian rifle platoon. First russian squad was discovered at 500 metres. two others at 450 m, last one at 400 m. Advancing russian rifle platoon still sees nothing no wonder). Two turns pass, before the best experienced squad (exp 60) saw suddenly 3 of 4 88s at range of 300-350 metres. He was the last one that moved that turn, the previous guys under exp 60 were still blind, though they are only 300 metres from the guns. Moreover, I ordered the gunners not to fire until 50 metres in order to avoid demasking effects of firing.

And now, take russian scouts and do the same. At 300 metres they discover all four guns, while the germans stilll see nothing. Just out of curiosity I continued the advance of the scouts. They were discovered at 200 metres two turns later.

What is my point:
1] spotting the barn 88 is not difficult, if your troops have the same experience and size 1 (normal squad, not conscripts or cavalry).

2] spotting the barn 88 with size 0 units (scouts and smaller than squad units) is not difficult even when you are exp 55 and the enemy 75.

Things that ruin your spotting -
a] move more than one hex per turn
b] scout with big units
c] use unexperienced troops

First two points make you easy to be spotted (and if you get under fire from unspotted enemy, you are not good scout).

The second helps your spotting. The more experience, the further you see. (German Para scouts can spot the 88 at 450 metres). Important thign is, that even the runnig conscript will spot the 88 at 250 metres! Therefore, there is no way to easily hide the 88 in the open and the game comes here very close to reality, judging from my experience.

Years ago, we had to hide D-30 howitzers used as battalion antitank reserve - you just have to dig half meter in the ground. In case of 88 may be a meter or so. After that the gun is just about meter above terrain. Meter at 500 m is the same to spot as 1 mm at 50 cm range.

Therefore I think, the game is just OK. If anything, it spots very predictably and quite well compared to reality. I witnessed a motor rifle squad digging into ground hundred meters away from battery of D-30s, not knowing we are there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (though we were not precisely in the open, but at the edge of forest).

regards,
badger45

Re: LOS and spotting
 

I hope they where friendlies; for their sake.
evan

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Hi Don,
Would you be thinking of Dr. Alessandro Bonnani? I can't remember his handle exactly but I think it rhymes with "banker"<g>

Regards, Warwick

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Hi Evan

You may want to think about playing against some humans that are willing to share a little knowledge.
Perhaps you should have a look at

www.theblitz.org

There is a strong SP ladder there that plays PBEM and there is also a mentor programme that can be very helpful when you are at the beginning of your time with the game.

Once you have experienced PBEM, you'll have delved into the full spectrum of what SP CAMO Steel Panthers has to offer.

After all the work that Don and Andy, and all the testers and posters and players,have put into these games over the last 9 years, the AI is now very good.

However, human opponents are on another level.

It's great fun playing the campaigns and scenarios, don't get me wrong, but knowing that you are slowly tearing apart the forces belonging to someone on the other side of the planet is quite a different level of fun.

Just a thought bro.
Cheers
SGT

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Warwick,

Yes Wanker something or other.

Thanks!

Has he been around here lately?

Your handle sound familar.

There was also Neuman, Richard, Jon Cassino (taught me how to hide), and Ed M.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Interesting experiment and good points too (wish I had the time to have tried something like it). Scouts seem to be a Must Have item, (saved a lot of pain soemtimes, but I find it tricky keeping them alive, especially in forests etc, when it's just too easy to stumble into an unfriendly unit. etc). Funny how fewer pairs of eyes are better at spotting though :-) On the otherhand I guess they dont crunch around like full infantry sections so dont get detected so easy themselves.
I can see your point about 88's etc.. on Defend/Assault missions cos theyre dugin and in prep'd positions, but on delay/advance type they're not supposed to be, or I got that wrong? Anyhow, as you illustrate, it seems that if your grunts can survive the first few battles and get experience they get much hotter at spotting stuff. It's just a question of surviving that long :-)

Re: LOS and spotting
 

In attack/advance I just send forward cavalry screen to draw enemy fire and detect enemy presence. After that I dismount infantry from tanks/trucks and move it forward to do actual spotting. Of cause that is intention, reality is usually more messy.

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Hi Don,
Sorry for the delay in reply, I've been around since 2001 on and off. Do you remember Jerry Sindle? He made some really good posts, also troopie who is still around I think.

Regards, Warwick

Re: LOS and spotting
 

Dug-in status is for troops in well prepared positions, and accordingly it is more difficult to spot (not covered in my example). I fear I don't have much experience with such positions, as most of our exercises were about hastily prepared posts - you had usually hour or two to prepare, which is something the game does not refer to as dug-in. Therefore these hasty positions are in-game "Ready, not moving" you encounter in all but assault-defend missions. My point was, that it is quite possible to conceal 2m high At gun even if you have only quarter or half an hour. We usually used dozers - don't know what used Germans in WW2, but I suppose, they did not rely on muscles only http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Regarding "must have" scouts: they do NOT spot better, regardless their name (if I am wrong, hope DRG or Mobhack say it). They are just small infantry teams (size 0), like MGs, AT teams or snipers. Their main advantage over these is the combination of 4 man, high speed and low costs.

The last point is not so pronounced in SPWW2, but it gets more importance later in the SPMBT. 4 man insure it much higher probability of surviving in face of random attack and their high speed allows them to move quickly over safe areas. So you can in fact use snipers, but you cannot afford ANY encounter, you can use MGs, but you will be ALLWAYS slowed down to movement 4 (e.g one hex in snow), you can use AT teams, but be prepared to half more or double the costs (for no effect, as you don't want to fight anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif).

To put the scouts into perspective of example. Last battle I fought Germans in December 1941 with crap company of 12 BT tanks, platoon of scouts, FO and battalion of 152 mm cannon howitzers. Germans deployed to the objective a rifle company and wild mix of PzIIIH, Pz-II, Lt-38 and two two armored cars. A total of about twenty vehicles with infantry loaded on them.

My BT tanks had transported the scouts and FO quite quickly through the safe zone (meeting engagement), where they dismounted to positions about 400-500 meters around objective, so as to have nice look at approach lines. Germans arrived due to their low mobility later (I gave them no hint, I am there, by leaving the objective unoccupied). I could see all of the German advance, plot artillery mission to suitable place and prepare my tanks, so that they envelop the expected enemy position and could 'pop up' after first shell land (pop up, i.e. move one hex, shoot one round at a time, at the end go back). All gone well (rare occasion) and after the artillery laid a concentrated fire of 80 shells, suppressing almost all enemy units, I popped up carefully with the BT tanks, killed what I could, and hide again. This continued for three turns. Arty burned two wehicles and wiped out some infantry, the rest being finished by my tanks. Enemy managed to get some lucky shots and killed two BTs (had I T-34, there would be no losses). Scouts proved absolutely vital to a mission. Without them I would 1] had no clue where to fire the arty and where to hide the tanks, 2] could not avoid tank to tank engagement (I used different firing directions, forcing his tanks to turn around a lot and almost always shooting his 'back' - had it been head to head, he would burn me in one turn). As this task group was just about the only task group of Germans, it routed his entire force. Easy victory.

If I had regular infantry there, I may have been spotted (not to mention, that BT and later light tanks like T-60 cannot load them). AT teams were not usable (tanks were accompanied by infantry). At least one sniper would die (friendly arty).MGs would have trouble to move after dismounting (I had to cross about six or seven hexes, turns out as 3 turns more, i.e. loosing the time used to prepare ambush).

Keeping the scouts alive is a challenge, but not that high, unless you play assault mission. I tend to keep the scouts on flanks of formations, rarely using them on main battle tanks or in advance of my main group. Rather I send them forward but on the less obvious paths and adjust the battle plan accordingly to what they spot. BTW the above example was preceded by four battles where I did not guess in advance, what would be the main attack axis, and all four times a flanking scouts saved the day, allowing me to change the direction of my own attack to suit enemy 'needs' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Regards,
badger45

BTW quite a long post... sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Oldies...
 

Warwick, Yes I remember Troopie, not sure on Jerry, heres the list I vaguely remember chatting and gaming with

Warwick
dlazov
Ed Mortimer
Jon Cassino
Carp
richard854xxx
mk
Zaphoid Beelte Bock
Wonderstuck
Pat Gilland
wwpanzerdk
Dan Combs
Blazejoes & Leopald Leo (da pair...)
carlfinkinstien
B&GStag
Burges

And so on.

good post gone by...

Re: LOS and spotting
 

I didnt know they didnt have better spotting skills. Something learnt there then. I've been using them the same way - on extreme flanks and they can definitely save your bacon. I got a German campaign going and like you say, keep them on the flanks and avoid fights unless in deep sh*t, though where they have come unstuck sometimes is when strolling through 1 hex visibility woodland and suddenly a bunch of T34's carrying infantry turns up where their last turn ended.... ooops. On the otherhand if you aint so unlucky, (or is that just more careful?), they can be used for causing chaos at enemy rear. I put them in 250/1's but you have to be very careful with that for obvious reasons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But they handy for getting your scouts across a large chunk of map early on or getting an unlucky pinned scout unit out of trouble. Just dont park up somewhere risky with the scout still on board. I've recently beefed up each of the 2 groups, each one has 2 Aufklarer; 2 250/1; 1 Puma; 1 250/7; 1 250/17. Ok now n then a unit lunches it, but c'est la guerre, sh*t happens. Last delay mission they got bypassed by attacking enemy armour (valuable info passed back to HQ about what was heading where), and went on to scout out enemy mortars. Later on they knocked out 2 Russian rocket launchers, 3 mortars, assorted fleeing inftry from the main battle. So a Must Have Item for sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The amount of times I would have been caught unawares without scouts of some sort makes them worth every point spent.

Re: Oldies...
 

Yep all those plus Doug McBratney, Miguel (Barbed Wire) Aparicio,Richard Muirhead, Richard Hopkins, and Luke Bennett

Re: Oldies...
 

Spotting ability is partly depended on experience of the unit. Most scout units have an experience (and morale) bonus and hence spot slightly better on average. But there is no additional bonus for them being 'scouts'.

Narwan